459 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

Again you miss the point. You keep mentioning this medieval period in England. Prove it beyond just a mention as I've never seen ANY mention in any history book I've read of atheism as a real philophy with a following existing until the 1800s... 1700s at the earliest.

Given that even medieval Islam notes the existance of atheists, the Norse stories address men who didn't believe in the gods (which is mentioned in Jacob Grimm's Teutonic Mythology), and even the Bible makes note of people who didn't believe in God, I don't see a point to continually address this issue in your posts. Atheism predates the time period that Ferelden is loosely based on. Let's finally let this issue rest and get back to addressing the OP. Getting back on-topic for this discussion, since there are atheists in the Dragon Age stories, I don't see why such an option was excluded for Hawke in the world of Thedas.

Ariella wrote...

We've seen Morrigan who was raised by Flemmeth. A single human not raise in human society, or exposed to human cultural norms.

I'm disputing this because the cultural norms of the society we've been presented with don't allow for an atheistic viewpoint at the moment. Hawke's no scholar, and had no reason to rebel against this specific set of cultural norms (ie belief in the Maker).

Hawke can not believe in the Maker and the Chant of Light for a multitude of reasons. Atheism can happen, regardless of the social and cultural norms.

Ariella wrote...

The point is the atheism you refer to is not the "atheism" of that period, which DOES have relevence because if atheism is going to be used as a term in Thedas, it's most likely going to be used as an accusation by the chantry not an affirmative philosophy.

Aveline can say that she doesn't believe in the Chant of Light (in direct contradiction to the social and cultural norms that she was brought up in), and even the Cousland Warden can say he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker.

Ariella wrote...

Elder Scrolls is a completely different fantasy world, which a completely different history. Thedas is a heck of a lot closer to the real world in it's religious development. Elder Scrolls does not. 

Except for it's treatment of women in this time period it's loosely emulating.

Ariella wrote...

Prove it. I'm talking about Western medieval civilization, which is the model for Thedas as it is in the Dragon Age. In that civilzation the societal norm was belief, and atheism considered an aberration. The "atheism" you're talking about in England comes from accusations being tossed back and forth between rivial polito-religious groups during the Age of Enlightenment. The accused were atheists as we consider them today.

There's no reason Hawke can't be an atheist when there is a precedence for characters not to adhere to the norm of their Andrastian upbringing, from the Warden Avernus to the refugee Aveline, and even the Cousland protagonist.

Ariella wrote...

Which is what? Change in belief tends to happen with an exposure to new ideas. Where is Hawke, a farmer, later mercenary/smuggler and noble going to be exposed to these ideas?

Or Hawke could not believe in the Maker for the same reason that the Cousland protagonist can be an atheist.

Ariella wrote...

The ONLY exposure to philosophies other than that of the Andrastian Chantry come later from Merrill, Fenris (who talks about the Tevinter Chantry), and the Qunari. There are no major writers talking about defying the Maker and not believing in Him in human society. There are no tectonic changes in the world that would make people doubt the existance of the Maker. 

Hawke's personal views don't require social changes.

Ariella wrote...

And that's the entire point. Even conversion to the Qun is belief in something, but there's no terrible event that has happened prior to DA 2 to make your average human in Thedas doubt the Maker. This is I brought up those philosophies, and scientific therioes in the first place. They shook the foundation of Western society making grey what was once black and white, in perception. And then the war came, and the terrible destruction perpetrated on humans by other humans (nerve gas, gatling guns, tanks) cause a reevaluation of religion, belief and God on a societal level. This has yet to happen in Thedas, because with very few exceptions, this kind of questioning hasn't even begun to take place on the kind of scale required for what we call atheism today.

Except for those characters who don't believe in the Maker and the Chant of Light, so it's clearly established that atheists already exist in Thedas.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why such an option was excluded for Hawke in the world of Thedas.

It wasn't.

Again.

[Aesieru]

That's not really atheistic... that's a lot different.

Plus this entire debate is tedious and ridiculous... Atheism is a minority if there ever was one, and as such really isn't going to be focused on a part from a few throws here and there to make you get your cookie and feel satisfied...

You'll never get a full on and prominent atheistic mentality as a choice, it just wouldn't make sense fully.

[AngelicMachinery]

Aesieru wrote...
Atheism is a minority if there ever was one..

Oh you .

[Aesieru]

Agnosticism, Atheism, all of it... they know that, they even admit it...

Gagh, the point is that this entire debate literally serves no purpose outside of curtailing to BOREDOM and petty idealistics.

[Medhia Nox]

I wonder how it would matter - at all.

There's never been a game that really allows someone to imitate a spiritual life. I doubt a game would translate well at all anyway since spirituality is largely an act of self-control, contemplation, patience that leads, or ought to lead, to understanding. Games, a form of self-indulgence, and currently on the mindless instant gratification angle - are fairly opposite a spiritual life.

That being said - what does an atheist Hawke really have to bring to the table? Disbelief? The story isn't about belief in the Maker - so disbelief would only be a personal choice and, as stated, is largely available through specific options. I never got the impression my Hawke was at all religious or spiritual - certainly everything he does is self-serving and materialistic.

So I'd say he values secular belief far more than the belief in any spiritual existence.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 juin 2011 - 08:27 .

[Aesieru]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I wonder how it would matter - at all.

There's never been a game that really allows someone to imitate a spiritual life. I doubt a game would translate well at all anyway since spirituality is largely an act of self-control, contemplation, patience that leads, or ought to lead, to understanding. Games, a form of self-indulgence, and currently on the mindless instant gratification angle - are fairly opposite a spiritual life.

That being said - what does an atheist Hawke really have to bring to the table? Disbelief? The story isn't about belief in the Maker - so disbelief would only be a personal choice and, as stated, is largely available through specific options. I never got the impression my Hawke was at all religious or spiritual - certainly everything he does is self-serving and materialistic.

So I'd say he values secular belief far more than the belief in any spiritual existence.

---

I never once thought my Hawke or Warden to be self-serving... he was working for his family, then to avenge them, and then eventually for the betterment of Kirkwall and Templars / Mages.

Also that's not what religion is about... those might be characteristics that come from the belief, but the full point is to believe in the the deity and its focus and therefore thus when you die... go to it.

When one achieves absolute belief and faith in that deity, that's when those characteristics start to show up.

[Fallstar]

My Hawke was atheist. Sure we didn't get as many options to present this as with Origins, but Hawke can technically be an atheist.

[Medhia Nox]

Serving your family is an act of self-interest - sorry, a million people are going to rage against that, but I could hardly care.

It's easy to be "good" to the people you love - and evil actions always seem good when helping those you love, but that is self-serving.

A good action would likely have been staying and fighting the Darkspawn instead of fleeing like a coward. Your brother was a warrior - your sister a mage. Put your mother on a boat and go fight some Darkspawn. ((Especially with the belief that your mother has a rich family waiting for her in Kirkwall))

====

As for your definition of religion - yes, I would be an atheist. God does not need my belief. I don't believe in a D&D relationship with my deity.

But that's hardly the point.

[LobselVith8]

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why such an option was excluded for Hawke in the world of Thedas.

It wasn't.

Again.

Hawke demonstrates Andrastian belief when speaking to Merrill (as a love interest) and Sebastian, as I've noted previously.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I wonder how it would matter - at all. 

You mean the difference between having a choice in the matter (as we did in Origins) and none at all?

[Fallstar]

Aesieru wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I wonder how it would matter - at all.

There's never been a game that really allows someone to imitate a spiritual life. I doubt a game would translate well at all anyway since spirituality is largely an act of self-control, contemplation, patience that leads, or ought to lead, to understanding. Games, a form of self-indulgence, and currently on the mindless instant gratification angle - are fairly opposite a spiritual life.

That being said - what does an atheist Hawke really have to bring to the table? Disbelief? The story isn't about belief in the Maker - so disbelief would only be a personal choice and, as stated, is largely available through specific options. I never got the impression my Hawke was at all religious or spiritual - certainly everything he does is self-serving and materialistic.

So I'd say he values secular belief far more than the belief in any spiritual existence.

---

I never once thought my Hawke or Warden to be self-serving... he was working for his family, then to avenge them, and then eventually for the betterment of Kirkwall and Templars / Mages.

Also that's not what religion is about... those might be characteristics that come from the belief, but the full point is to believe in the the deity and its focus and therefore thus when you die... go to it.

When one achieves absolute belief and faith in that deity, that's when those characteristics start to show up.

Care to explain what you think religion is about? In Dragon Age, it is presented as a highly controlling, hypocritical organisation, with the templars acting as enforcers. Most Wardens/Hawkes were, I expect, atheist, or just had far more important things to attend to and so didn't really give a damn.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why such an option was excluded for Hawke in the world of Thedas.

It wasn't.

Again.

Hawke demonstrates Andrastian belief when speaking to Merrill (as a love interest) and Sebastian, as I've noted previously.

Videos? Screenshots? Quotes?

[Aesieru]

No in Dragon Age 2 the TEMPLARS who happen to BELIEVE in it think that.

That's like saying that in the Holy Crusade, just because they USED a religion to justify their means and ideals and decisions, meant that the religion itself was bad.

HAH... Hah...

Oh my...

---

No, in Dragon Age the same religion exists and we learn the story of Andraste and everything else, it is Dragon Age 2 that we simply see some people who've had some bad experiences with mages (hey look that Elven Keeper in Dragon Age Origins also overreacted against humans with the whole werewolf curse because of a bad experience) overreact or at least take their vengeance and be much harder and crueler.

Yes in DA:O we see the Circle of Magi main-quest line section but it doesn't have to end in blood and again it's just because some mages decided to take control because there's ALWAYS someone vying for power, just like those corrupt Templars just like the corrupt everything... just like Loghain.

No no no no... do not blame the artificially created religion that is merely the overlying belief system, blame the PEOPLE.

Sigh.

[LobselVith8]

ipgd wrote...

Videos? Screenshots? Quotes?

Hawke and Merrill after "All that Remains" in Act II, if they were romantically involved, and Hawke speaking to Sebastian in Act III in "The Last Straw."

Aesieru wrote...

No, in Dragon Age the same religion exists and we learn the story of Andraste and everything else, it is Dragon Age 2 that we simply see some people who've had some bad experiences with mages (hey look that Elven Keeper in Dragon Age Origins also overreacted against humans with the whole werewolf curse because of a bad experience) overreact or at least take their vengeance and be much harder and crueler.

A bad experience? Zathrian's son was brutally murdered and his daughter was raped, and she committed suicide soon afterward.

Aesieru wrote...

Yes in DA:O we see the Circle of Magi main-quest line section but it doesn't have to end in blood and again it's just because some mages decided to take control because there's ALWAYS someone vying for power, just like those corrupt Templars just like the corrupt everything... just like Loghain.

The Circle mages wanted freedom from the Chantry and its Order of Templars after nearly a thousand years; they wanted independence from the same Chantry one mage compared to the Tevinter Imperium.

[Silfren]

Heroinman wrote...

atheists make up about 2.3% of the worth's population and only 1.6% in the U.S., seems to me this isn't a group big enough to be worth a bunch of extra programming time ...

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

also the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems relevant here...

*sigh*  Do you know how many times that ridiculous quote has been shown to be false?  Or have you never heard of how many times foxholes CREATED atheists? 

God but I'm sick of that stupid quote.  It's got no basis in reality, it's just a myth perpetuated by theists, usually of a particular religion which I shall not name, that deep down everyone is a theist even if they don't want to admit it.

http://friendlyathei...oxholes-phrase/

[Sammyjb]

100% agree with this, especially for "good" Hawke. Hated how a good line forced me to be Andrastian. Hell, you could support the Dalish religion in Origins, or so I believe. I know all races could support atheism or Andrastiaism.

[Aesieru]

I made a response that justified the religion of the Chantry, if you're just going to nitpick it and ignore the reality fine... but that's not logical and it points you out as ignorant.

In any case...

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke and Merrill after "All that Remains" in Act II, if they were romantically involved, and Hawke speaking to Sebastian in Act III in "The Last Straw."

Well, what does Hawke say specifically in these instances, and does he/she express that supposed Andrastian faith in every single provided dialogue path?

[Sammyjb]

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why such an option was excluded for Hawke in the world of Thedas.

It wasn't.

Again.

Can you be atheist without being a douche is what the OP probably met. Atheism and being evil don't go hand in hand, especially in a world where we don't know if there is a god, gods, or no gods.

[tmp7704]

Sammyjb wrote...

Can you be atheist without being a douche is what the OP probably met. Atheism and being evil don't go hand in hand, especially in a world where we don't know if there is a god, gods, or no gods.

How is simply expressing lack of belief (or doubt) being a douche, or evil? Since that's what the linked quote does.

[Ariella]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

Again you miss the point. You keep mentioning this medieval period in England. Prove it beyond just a mention as I've never seen ANY mention in any history book I've read of atheism as a real philophy with a following existing until the 1800s... 1700s at the earliest. [/quote]

Given that even medieval Islam notes the existance of atheists,

[/quote]
Used as attacks on unbelievers (different from atheists), yet they could not name any actual people who were atheists (did not believe in any god)

[quote]

the Norse stories address men who didn't believe in the gods (which is mentioned in Jacob Grimm's Teutonic Mythology),

Song of the Sun, which is where Grimm is taking this from is from a Christian poem,  using the Norse poetic style but is not original Norse myth.

[quote]


and even the Bible makes note of people who didn't believe in God,
[/quote]

I've seen the proof text for it, and I've also seen the actual translation of the entire Pslam from the original Greek and Hebrew sources: The benighted man thinks "God does not care" or there is no God. It's about the God of Israel specifically and not a universal declaration of there are no deities period.

[quote]

I don't see a point to continually address this issue in your posts. Atheism predates the time period that Ferelden is loosely based on. Let's finally let this issue rest and get back to addressing the OP. Getting back on-topic for this discussion, since there are atheists in the Dragon Age stories, I don't see why such an option was excluded for Hawke in the world of Thedas.
[/quote]

I address this because while there maybe one or two canon established atheists, they are the exception, not the rule
Avernus has very good reason not to want to believe in the Maker (blood mage, power hungry murdering guy that he is) and Morrigan being raised by Flemmeth also had a specific reason not to believe in the Maker, but neither of them are good examples of the regular populace of Thedas.

[quote]

[quote]Ariella wrote...

We've seen Morrigan who was raised by Flemmeth. A single human not raise in human society, or exposed to human cultural norms.

I'm disputing this because the cultural norms of the society we've been presented with don't allow for an atheistic viewpoint at the moment. Hawke's no scholar, and had no reason to rebel against this specific set of cultural norms (ie belief in the Maker). [/quote]

Hawke can not believe in the Maker and the Chant of Light for a multitude of reasons. Atheism can happen, regardless of the social and cultural norms.
[/quote]

Nothing happens in a vacuum. All ideas spark from somewhere, so the question becomes where would Hawke be exposed to these ideas?

[quote]


[quote]Ariella wrote...

The point is the atheism you refer to is not the "atheism" of that period, which DOES have relevence because if atheism is going to be used as a term in Thedas, it's most likely going to be used as an accusation by the chantry not an affirmative philosophy. [/quote]

Aveline can say that she doesn't believe in the Chant of Light (in direct contradiction to the social and cultural norms that she was brought up in), and even the Cousland Warden can say he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker.
[/quote]

The Cousland warden issue has already been addressed elsewhere as it was a throw away because people wanted an atheist response, but it really didn't fit the time period. As for Aveline. What she says can be taken many ways.  Just because she doesn't believe in the Chant or doesn't find the Chantry's doctrine compelling doesn't mean she doesn't believe in the Maker. Do I need to point out Thomas Jefferson's Bible, where he cut out all supernatural references, yet still believed in God (being a deist and all). Aveline thinks the Chant is beautiful, but that's akin to someone saying they don't believe the Bible is the literal Word of God. There are many sects of Judiasm that take the Bible to be stories, that may or may not have happened, but there is still something worth preserving and learning from the text.

[quote]


[quote]Ariella wrote...

Elder Scrolls is a completely different fantasy world, which a completely different history. Thedas is a heck of a lot closer to the real world in it's religious development. Elder Scrolls does not. [/quote]

Except for it's treatment of women in this time period it's loosely emulating.
[/quote]

Why are you throwing this out now? What does this have to do with religion, especially since the savior in DA's human community is a woman.

[quote]


[quote]Ariella wrote...

Prove it. I'm talking about Western medieval civilization, which is the model for Thedas as it is in the Dragon Age. In that civilzation the societal norm was belief, and atheism considered an aberration. The "atheism" you're talking about in England comes from accusations being tossed back and forth between rivial polito-religious groups during the Age of Enlightenment. The accused were atheists as we consider them today. [/quote]

There's no reason Hawke can't be an atheist when there is a precedence for characters not to adhere to the norm of their Andrastian upbringing, from the Warden Avernus to the refugee Aveline, and even the Cousland protagonist.

[quote]Ariella wrote...

Which is what? Change in belief tends to happen with an exposure to new ideas. Where is Hawke, a farmer, later mercenary/smuggler and noble going to be exposed to these ideas? [/quote]

Or Hawke could not believe in the Maker for the same reason that the Cousland protagonist can be an atheist.

[quote]Ariella wrote...

The ONLY exposure to philosophies other than that of the Andrastian Chantry come later from Merrill, Fenris (who talks about the Tevinter Chantry), and the Qunari. There are no major writers talking about defying the Maker and not believing in Him in human society. There are no tectonic changes in the world that would make people doubt the existance of the Maker.  [/quote]

Hawke's personal views don't require social changes.
[/quote]

We're talking here about PRE player picking up the character. All development before that point is definately going to require discussion of society and culture that Hawke grew up in. We get Hawke as an adult, so attitudes are already in place.

[quote]
[quote]Ariella wrote...

And that's the entire point. Even conversion to the Qun is belief in something, but there's no terrible event that has happened prior to DA 2 to make your average human in Thedas doubt the Maker. This is I brought up those philosophies, and scientific therioes in the first place. They shook the foundation of Western society making grey what was once black and white, in perception. And then the war came, and the terrible destruction perpetrated on humans by other humans (nerve gas, gatling guns, tanks) cause a reevaluation of religion, belief and God on a societal level. This has yet to happen in Thedas, because with very few exceptions, this kind of questioning hasn't even begun to take place on the kind of scale required for what we call atheism today. [/quote]

Except for those characters who don't believe in the Maker and the Chant of Light, so it's clearly established that atheists already exist in Thedas.[/quote]

Two or three (and it's not clear if Aveline is an atheist or an agnostic) that are exceptions that prove the rule. Generally speaking you need some pretty extrordinary circumstances for someone to develope such a belief in Thedas 9:31

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

I address this because while there maybe one or two canon established atheists, they are the exception, not the rule Avernus has very good reason not to want to believe in the Maker (blood mage, power hungry murdering guy that he is) and Morrigan being raised by Flemmeth also had a specific reason not to believe in the Maker, but neither of them are good examples of the regular populace of Thedas.

Avernus is trying to find a means to unlock the powers of the taint, that can give the Wardens the edge they need against the darkspawn. It doesn't change the fact that he's an Andrastian who doesn't believe in the Maker, which is no different than a Cousland protagonist who admits he doesn't believe in the Maker, either, and he (or she)was raised in a comfortable enviornment to the point where it's said he may become the new Teyrn instead of Fergus.

Ariella wrote...

Nothing happens in a vacuum. All ideas spark from somewhere, so the question becomes where would Hawke be exposed to these ideas?

Hawke could simply not believe in the Maker and the Chant for a multitude of reasons, which would make him no different than the Cousland protagonist. Being an atheist doesn't require a superhero origin story.

Ariella wrote...

The Cousland warden issue has already been addressed elsewhere as it was a throw away because people wanted an atheist response, but it really didn't fit the time period.

I addressed for numerous reasons why it did fit the time period since the concept of being an atheist is centuries old, which wouldn't make it the first time that Gaider was mistaken about something he stated. Since it predates the time period that Ferelden is based on, there's no reason atheism shouldn't be included, especially when we have precedence for this with the Cousland Warden and the other Wardens.

Ariella wrote...

As for Aveline. What she says can be taken many ways.  Just because she doesn't believe in the Chant or doesn't find the Chantry's doctrine compelling doesn't mean she doesn't believe in the Maker. Do I need to point out Thomas Jefferson's Bible, where he cut out all supernatural references, yet still believed in God (being a deist and all). Aveline thinks the Chant is beautiful, but that's akin to someone saying they don't believe the Bible is the literal Word of God. There are many sects of Judiasm that take the Bible to be stories, that may or may not have happened, but there is still something worth preserving and learning from the text.

In other words, Aveline doesn't believe in the Chant in Andrastian society; she makes note that Wesley believed he would be at the Maker's side, and if he was right, that's where he was. Basically, she's another example of someone who has a different viewpoint of the world than a typical Andrastian.

Ariella wrote...

Why are you throwing this out now? What does this have to do with religion, especially since the savior in DA's human community is a woman.

It demonstrates that Ferelden and Thedas doesn't emulate everything about an early England.

Ariella wrote...

We're talking here about PRE player picking up the character. All development before that point is definately going to require discussion of society and culture that Hawke grew up in. We get Hawke as an adult, so attitudes are already in place.

And Hawke's atttiude could be that the Chantry of Andraste is wrong, that the Chant of Light is a fabrication, and that there is no Maker.

Ariella wrote...

Two or three (and it's not clear if Aveline is an atheist or an agnostic) that are exceptions that prove the rule. Generally speaking you need some pretty extrordinary circumstances for someone to develope such a belief in Thedas 9:31

There was no extraordinary circumstance for Aveline when she makes it clear she married Wesley because he was a good man, there's no extraordinary circumstance for Avernus when being a blood mage didn't make Merrill any less religious, and The Warden can be an atheist. It seems like another avenue where the player is being denied choice.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 juin 2011 - 09:49 .

[Silfren]

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

That's NOT what was said.  Be honest.  The statement was that children in loving homes TEND to follow the religious example of their parents.  And that's true.

[Aesieru]

Silfren wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

That's NOT what was said.  Be honest.  The statement was that children in loving homes TEND to follow the religious example of their parents.  And that's true.

It's important also to note, that while this is true for the most part excluding certain circumstances or life experiences that may occur later on... the issue resides in what the definition of "loving" is.

If you're of a relationship that had a lot of arguing and fighting and "I hate my parents", then outside of the acceptable amount of that happening... if it exceeded that it was probably not a truely functional family or relationship with familial guardians.

---

In addition, it's also important to determine in the case of faith or religion, if they were false-Christians (in the case of Christianity), on and off Christians, very very faithful Christians, and what denomination they had, but essentially whether they were true to the faith or not... if they were just going to church and reading the bible then no... if they actually allowed it to influence and change their perception of things (less anger, more love... go to God first for assistance) then it's more probably that the relationship would have been... positive to transfer on to the child or guardian or whatever.

In any case... experience's are always different.

Modifié par Aesieru, 01 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

leonia42 wrote...

I still wish we had an option to convert to the Qun (though I see that more as a lifestyle choice than a religious choice, kind of like Buddhism).

I wanted this option so badly.