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[Silfren]

Aesieru wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

That's NOT what was said.  Be honest.  The statement was that children in loving homes TEND to follow the religious example of their parents.  And that's true.

It's important also to note, that while this is true for the most part excluding certain circumstances or life experiences that may occur later on... the issue resides in what the definition of "loving" is.

If you're of a relationship that had a lot of arguing and fighting and "I hate my parents", then outside of the acceptable amount of that happening... if it exceeded that it was probably not a truely functional family or relationship with familial guardians.

---

In addition, it's also important to determine in the case of faith or religion, if they were false-Christians (in the case of Christianity), on and off Christians, very very faithful Christians, and what denomination they had, but essentially whether they were true to the faith or not... if they were just going to church and reading the bible then no... if they actually allowed it to influence and change their perception of things (less anger, more love... go to God first for assistance) then it's more probably that the relationship would have been... positive to transfer on to the child or guardian or whatever.

In any case... experience's are always different.

Here is where I point out that the correct English method of pluralizing experience is thus: "experiences."  Using the " 's" construction to pluralize experience is incorrect.  At least until it becomes so common and widespread that it becomes accepted, and therefore correct.  

[Tommy6860]

Silfren wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

That's NOT what was said.  Be honest.  The statement was that children in loving homes TEND to follow the religious example of their parents.  And that's true.

Well, there's actually two ways to pluralize that. But in the context of how he used, it, it was incorrect.

It's important also to note, that while this is true for the most part excluding certain circumstances or life experiences that may occur later on... the issue resides in what the definition of "loving" is.

If you're of a relationship that had a lot of arguing and fighting and "I hate my parents", then outside of the acceptable amount of that happening... if it exceeded that it was probably not a truely functional family or relationship with familial guardians.

---

In addition, it's also important to determine in the case of faith or religion, if they were false-Christians (in the case of Christianity), on and off Christians, very very faithful Christians, and what denomination they had, but essentially whether they were true to the faith or not... if they were just going to church and reading the bible then no... if they actually allowed it to influence and change their perception of things (less anger, more love... go to God first for assistance) then it's more probably that the relationship would have been... positive to transfer on to the child or guardian or whatever.

In any case... experience's are always different.

Here is where I point out that the correct English method of pluralizing experience is thus: "experiences."  Using the " 's" construction to pluralize experience is incorrect.  At least until it becomes so common and widespread that it becomes accepted, and therefore correct.  

Well, there's two ways of pluralizing that. But in the context of how he used it, it is incorrect. I typically don't get into grammar lames though, I understood his point.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 01 juin 2011 - 10:30 .

[Rockworm503]

Ariella wrote...

Okay, why would Hawke be atheist? I agree with Gaider in it doesn't make sense for the setting. People really didn't start doubting the existence of God until the late 1800s/early half of the 1900s in real life history, and much of that doubt was caused by the introduction of evolution/relativity/and psychiatry to the world giving a shade of grey to what was once black and white to people.

Then World War 1 came and really screwed things up because evil stopped looking like evil. It was hard to tell who was right and who was wrong since both sides did terrible things, and most of the time those things were perpetrated by people who looked like (and were)
bureaucrats. And the aftermath of WW1 was enough to shake anyone's faith.

Things like this haven't happened yet in the Thedas timeline. If anything, we're on the very verge of a true meltdown in the Chantry, but even that would not be enough to shake societal norms which tend to believe in the Maker and Andraste. For that to happen, there's going to need to be a disproof of at least one of the legends surrounding the Maker. I think the most likely is finding out where the Darkspawn really came from.

I would argue that the Darkspawn and the Blight being because the Maker turned his back on everyone would shake anyone's faith.

[Frolk]

Forgive me if I'm just repeating a comment that's already been made - I'm not up for reading all twelve pages of this discussion.

I was a bit surprised when my diplomatic Hawke uttered a "praise Andraste" at the end of a tough battle, but it didn't bother me despite my preference for playing as an atheist in Origins. I guess I just don't see Hawke as a digital Mary Sue but rather as a character in his or her own right with certain set characteristics including religious belief. That said, if I had been given the option to make Hawke an atheist, I would have taken it.

[Alex Kershaw]

Because the voiced protagonist limits dialogue options. Like most other decisions, it would be impossible to put atheist into diplomatic, sarcastic or aggressive, so they just make the decision for you and let you choose which way you say it.

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 01 juin 2011 - 11:32 .

[Rockworm503]

Ariella wrote...

If Hawke was raised in a believing home, which seems to be the case, why would Hawke be an atheist? Hawke is an average individual, and unless exposed to the idea that such a thing is possible, Hawke would have no reason to doubt otherwise. The GAME provides no reason to doubt the Maker. The Chantry as it's run, yes, but there's no viable reason for society to start doubting the Maker... yet.

I was raised ina believing home.  Why am I an atheist.  I'm an average individual and was never exposed to anything outside of Mormon beliefs.... yet by the age of 12 I was doubting and questioning all of it by 15 I was out.
Reality provided no reason for me to doubt the church yet here we are.

The last bit is the anti RP if I ever saw it.
Why should a game give you a reason to do anything?

[Leonia]

Silfren wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

That's NOT what was said.  Be honest.  The statement was that children in loving homes TEND to follow the religious example of their parents.  And that's true.

Did it need to be said at all. What a slap in the face to atheists who grew up in believe households or believers that sprung from atheist parents. It didn't contribute to the thread topic at all and it's hardly a true statement. Regardless of the intent, it wasn't needed and I see the comment doing more harm than good. What does it matter in-real life how things work, we're talking about Thedas here.  

And while you can interpret that Hawke grew up in a loving household, you can't state that the parents (or well, mother) was overly religious. All you know is that Hawke hails from a noble family that were Andrastians, you don't know that Leandra made baby Hawke pray to the Maker every night and recite the chant and say grace at dinner.

The statement (which I took slight offense to, admittedly) coupled with the fact that the poster was trying to prove that Hawke was a devote Andrastian raised by a loving Andrastian family makes so many blatant and unnecessary assumptions that I find it quite unworthy of being posted it all. But most of that poster's argument hinged on assumptions about real-world religion and in-game interactions so I suppose I shouldn't have expected anything less.

I just found it rich that someone who admits to be a non-practicing religious person is trying to tell us how loving families work and how religion works in those families when they are already a hypocrite in my book.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 11:50 .

[Elhanan]

AFAIK, the Player does not have to believe in God to play DA2, but perhaps Hawke read the credits.

[Chromie]

Silfren wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

That's NOT what was said.  Be honest.  The statement was that children in loving homes TEND to follow the religious example of their parents.  And that's true.

I had my parents, a Christian and Muslim and an Aunt who is Buddist. My house wasn't exactly religious in the sense that my parents pushed their religion on me. Maybe Hawke was the same?

Hell I turned out to an aethiest but if Hawke doesn't have get have any story or quests related to religion I don't see the point in him or her caring about the Maker.

I say "Jesus Christ!" or "Oh God" more as a habit not because I believe maybe my Hawke does to!

[FiachSidhe]

Frolk wrote...

Forgive me if I'm just repeating a comment that's already been made - I'm not up for reading all twelve pages of this discussion.

I was a bit surprised when my diplomatic Hawke uttered a "praise Andraste" at the end of a tough battle, but it didn't bother me despite my preference for playing as an atheist in Origins. I guess I just don't see Hawke as a digital Mary Sue but rather as a character in his or her own right with certain set characteristics including religious belief. That said, if I had been given the option to make Hawke an atheist, I would have taken it.

To be fair, many real atheists say "thank God" or "God dammit" or "good lord!/Jesus Christ!" despite not believing in them.

I'm Agnostic, and do it all the time.

Modifié par FiachSidhe, 02 juin 2011 - 12:31 .

[Byth]

Yeah, Hawke is pretty clearly andrastian(one seen he/she says that someone's "with the Maker"). It's odd seeing that in DA:O and Mass Effect you can be athiest.

[Chromie]

FiachSidhe wrote...\\

To be fair, many real atheists say "thank God" or "God dammit" or "good lord!/Jesus Christ!" despite not believing in them.

I'm Agnostic, and do it all the time.

Yup same here. It's more like an expression to me...

[Havokk7]

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?
The impression I get from reading the lore and books is that there is no argument that the Maker and Andraste exists. Whether or not people worship them is another question, of course.

[Chromie]

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?
The impression I get from reading the lore and books is that there is no argument that the Maker and Andraste exists. Whether or not people worship them is another question, of course.

Yes there is. Leliana was brought back by the maker. 

[Frolk]

FiachSidhe wrote...

Frolk wrote...

Forgive me if I'm just repeating a comment that's already been made - I'm not up for reading all twelve pages of this discussion.

I was a bit surprised when my diplomatic Hawke uttered a "praise Andraste" at the end of a tough battle, but it didn't bother me despite my preference for playing as an atheist in Origins. I guess I just don't see Hawke as a digital Mary Sue but rather as a character in his or her own right with certain set characteristics including religious belief. That said, if I had been given the option to make Hawke an atheist, I would have taken it.

To be fair, many real atheists say "thank God" or "God dammit" or "good lord!/Jesus Christ!" despite not believing in them.

I'm Agnostic, and do it all the time.

True, Diplomatic Hawke's battle cries and exclamations could just be expressions picked up from the surrounding religious culture.  I didn't interpret it that way; to me "May Andraste guide me" and "Praise Andraste" seems to imply a specific religious belief.

Anyway, as someone said, Hawke supposedly confirms that she's an Andrastian in a conversation with Merrill and Sebastian (I haven't heard this conversation yet, though).  Also, to my knowledge, there's no opportunity for Hawke to express disbelief.  Not that I care too much about this, but it does seem to me that Hawke is at least nominally religious.

[LobselVith8]

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?

Yes. Avernus and Morrigan are, The Warden can be, and it's disputed whether Aveline is an atheist or whether she holds agnostic views.

Havokk7 wrote...

The impression I get from reading the lore and books is that there is no argument that the Maker and Andraste exists.

There is debate over the issue. The Dalish believe in the Creators. The dwarves believe in the Ancestors. The Tevinter used to believe in the Old Gods as deities.

Havokk7 wrote...

Whether or not people worship them is another question, of course.

There's no evidence the Maker exists; even the Urn of Sacred Ashes is said by Oghren to be because of the large wall of lyrium that's effecting the entire temple. And Leliana's "ressurection" at the temple hasn't been explained, but I'm certain the explanation will be as bad as the one for Anders and Justice magically meeting if Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes and if Anders was never recruited by The Warden...

[Frolk]

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?
The impression I get from reading the lore and books is that there is no argument that the Maker and Andraste exists. Whether or not people worship them is another question, of course.

Neither the dwarven religion nor the Qun recognise any gods, so those followers are atheists.  The Dalish religion is polytheistic, and they don't believe in the Maker, nor do they believe in Andraste's divinity.  There's quite a bit of religious diversity in Thedas.

[grey_savant]

I don't remember any such pro-god lines from my Hawke's. If any were said, I simply assumed he was playing along to not upset anyone else and didn't really believe. I never asked the Holy Mother for a blessing.

Edit: Offensive comments removed.

Modifié par grey_savant, 02 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[kaiki01]

Frolk wrote...

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?
The impression I get from reading the lore and books is that there is no argument that the Maker and Andraste exists. Whether or not people worship them is another question, of course.

Neither the dwarven religion nor the Qun recognise any gods, so those followers are atheists.  The Dalish religion is polytheistic, and they don't believe in the Maker, nor do they believe in Andraste's divinity.  There's quite a bit of religious diversity in Thedas.

The impression I got from the dwarves was that they believed that the Dalish & Andrastian faiths were not for the Dwarves. Not that those gods did not exist. Not enough information about the Qun.

[kaiki01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?

Yes. Avernus and Morrigan are

DA:O gave the impression that Morrigan believed in the Old Gods, just not in the god of Andreste(sp).

[Chromie]

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?

Yes. Avernus and Morrigan are

DA:O gave the impression that Morrigan believed in the Old Gods, just not in the god of Andreste(sp).

How?! She believed everything simply just is or at least said that to Leliana. 

[In Exile]

FiachSidhe wrote...
To be fair, many real atheists say "thank God" or "God dammit" or "good lord!/Jesus Christ!" despite not believing in them.

I'm Agnostic, and do it all the time.

Me too. Well, some of the phrases.

I don't think a use of a phrase of this sort marks you as a theist. In fact, depending on the religion and the degree of adherence to the literal doctrines, doing so would mark you as an atheist (name in vain and all that).

Frolk wrote...
True, Diplomatic Hawke's battle cries and
exclamations could just be expressions picked up from the surrounding
religious culture.  I didn't interpret it that way; to me "May Andraste
guide me" and "Praise Andraste" seems to imply a specific religious
belief.

I suppose it could be. Where does diplomatic Hawke say those lines? I can never hear the battle cries, so I suppose it's there?

It could be like saying bless you. Or Hawke, being diplomatic, is just a suck-up to the major religious belief. That's how diplomatic comes across to me.

Anyway, as someone said, Hawke supposedly confirms that
she's an Andrastian in a conversation with Merrill and Sebastian (I
haven't heard this conversation yet, though).  Also, to my knowledge,
there's no opportunity for Hawke to express disbelief.  Not that I care
too much about this, but it does seem to me that Hawke is at least
nominally religious.

You can with the Grand Cleric, to some degree.

[kaiki01]

Ringo12 wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?

Yes. Avernus and Morrigan are

DA:O gave the impression that Morrigan believed in the Old Gods, just not in the god of Andreste(sp).

How?! She believed everything simply just is or at least said that to Leliana. 

In that conversation Morrigan argued against intelligent design or the Maker behind creation. When the Warden spends the night with Morrigan she says dialogue that gives the impression that preserving the Old God essence in the archdemon was the most important thing in her life. I agree that that does not nessicarly mean that she worships the Old Gods, but, the dialog in DA:O does not paint Morrigan as an atheist. Just anti-Andraste(sp).

[neppakyo]

Just be glad hawke isn't a Scientologist.

[Rolenka]

I have wondered this as well. I can think of one opportunity Hawke has to say the Chantry is a scam, but even then he does not deny the existence of the Gods or the Maker.