459 réponses à ce sujet

[Frolk]

In Exile wrote...

Anyway, as someone said, Hawke supposedly confirms that
she's an Andrastian in a conversation with Merrill and Sebastian (I
haven't heard this conversation yet, though).  Also, to my knowledge,
there's no opportunity for Hawke to express disbelief.  Not that I care
too much about this, but it does seem to me that Hawke is at least
nominally religious.

You can with the Grand Cleric, to some degree.

Funny, I was playing a few hours ago and just came upon that option (this was after I made the comment that you quoted).  Still, it's not so much a statement of disbelief in the Maker as it is a lack of reverence.

[Medhia Nox]

But for as much of a role as the Chantry plays - Hawke's religious views (or lack) are never part of the story. Aside from one conversation, which I haven't heard, between Merill, Sebastian, and Hawke where he states that he is Andrastian.

Heck - wouldn't a servant of the Black Divine still be Andrastian? Atheists can get their rebellious fix that way no? 

====

This isn't even like the love interest arguments about who can and can't be gay, straight, or whatever. Having a love interest is actually part of the story (and a huge one given how the game tries its best to force you to be in a relationship with Anders).

====

- What if I wanted my Hawke to be anti-aristocracy and not have wealth and political clout in Kirkwall? Where's my option for an austere lifestyle?

- What if I wanted my Hawke to have some morals and not side with mercenaries? Not perform mercenary fetch quests so I could go on my mercenary tomb raid?

=====

Honestly - Hawke is as secular acting as they come. He is completely concerned with his own self-interest and, by extension, that of only those he cares about. He is a very common modern American. Even Goody Goody Hawke is only marginally better than Smartass Hawke or Badass Hawke.

If he's religious at all - it's only a dangling participle to his otherwise amoral and relatively ineffectual lifestyle.

Who knows - maybe he's being "clever" and just talking religion with Sebastian and Merill to save himself an argument?

After my play through I honestly saw nothing religious or spiritual about the character at all. Do we need to him actively espouse the virtues of science and evolution?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 juin 2011 - 01:31 .

[Ariella]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Okay, why would Hawke be atheist? I agree with Gaider in it doesn't make sense for the setting. People really didn't start doubting the existence of God until the late 1800s/early half of the 1900s in real life history, and much of that doubt was caused by the introduction of evolution/relativity/and psychiatry to the world giving a shade of grey to what was once black and white to people.

Then World War 1 came and really screwed things up because evil stopped looking like evil. It was hard to tell who was right and who was wrong since both sides did terrible things, and most of the time those things were perpetrated by people who looked like (and were)
bureaucrats. And the aftermath of WW1 was enough to shake anyone's faith.

Things like this haven't happened yet in the Thedas timeline. If anything, we're on the very verge of a true meltdown in the Chantry, but even that would not be enough to shake societal norms which tend to believe in the Maker and Andraste. For that to happen, there's going to need to be a disproof of at least one of the legends surrounding the Maker. I think the most likely is finding out where the Darkspawn really came from.

I would argue that the Darkspawn and the Blight being because the Maker turned his back on everyone would shake anyone's faith.

Shaken faith and lost faith don't mean automantic atheism. I'm thinking more along the lines that it may have been something unleashed by the Tevinter in their war against the elves or some such rather than it being a curse of the Maker.

[marshalleck]

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why such an option was excluded for Hawke in the world of Thedas.

It wasn't.

Again.

Seems to me like that's implicit belief in Chantry dogma, not an atheistic perspective. If that Hawke were an atheist, she'd say "The Maker doesn't exist. What good would your blessing do me?"

[errant_knight]

Medieval europeans were Catholic, and that's what this was based on. A few were Jewish, but they were segregated, there weren't that many statistically speaking and there was great prejudice against them. A person of Hawke's social class would be Catholic, meaning that in the Thedas parallel, Hawke would be Andrastian. Both the reformation and modern secular concepts like atheism were a long way away. The game refelcts modern issues, but it's set in a medieval timeframe and Hawke's religion is consistant with that. The idea of atheism just isn't something that would have occurred to a medieval person.

Modifié par errant_knight, 02 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Ariella]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

If Hawke was raised in a believing home, which seems to be the case, why would Hawke be an atheist? Hawke is an average individual, and unless exposed to the idea that such a thing is possible, Hawke would have no reason to doubt otherwise. The GAME provides no reason to doubt the Maker. The Chantry as it's run, yes, but there's no viable reason for society to start doubting the Maker... yet.

I was raised ina believing home.  Why am I an atheist.  I'm an average individual and was never exposed to anything outside of Mormon beliefs.... yet by the age of 12 I was doubting and questioning all of it by 15 I was out.
Reality provided no reason for me to doubt the church yet here we are.

The last bit is the anti RP if I ever saw it.
Why should a game give you a reason to do anything?

To answer in reverse, because the game is the framework in which one has to function, just like a DM circumscribes the game world her players play it. The society Hawke comes from doesn't really allow or encourge the kind of questioning, you're talking about AND it's not a society with a lot of knowledge accessable at one's finger tips, unlike today. It doesn't make sense that Hawke would question the Maker's existance. Some of the Chantry's rulings yes, considering her upbringing, but not the existance of the Maker himself.

And as I said before children, when brought up in a good enviroment TEND to follow their parents religion. Not a 100% certainty in this age.

[marshalleck]

errant_knight wrote...

Medieval europeans were Catholic, and that's what this was based on. A few were Jewish, but they were segregated, there weren't that many statistically speaking and there was great prejudice against them. A person of Hawke's social class would be Catholic, meaning that in the Thedas parallel, Hawke would be Andrastian. Both the reformation and modern secular concepts like atheism were a long way away. The game refelcts modern issues, but it's set in a medieval timeframe and Hawke's religion is consistant with that. The idea of atheism just isn't something that would have occurred to a medieval person.

I'm sorry, but I think that's kind of a load of crap. Sure, the philosophical arguments weren't developed by then but as an example, it shouldn't be hard for a reasonably perceptive, intuitive person to understand that for crops to grow you need water, sunlight, and good soil. Appeasing the gods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Of course, having roving bands of religious fanatics putting people in thumbscrews and burning others at the stake tends to quash any dissenting views from being voiced in public.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 juin 2011 - 04:53 .

[Tirfan]

For me this was one of the greatest things that bugged me in Hawke - I think I got the "I believe in the maker" line in Merril romance, it was the final point where I realized that Hawke really wasn't my character. And yes, this does make a big difference for my characters, if I considered them secular/atheist or andrastian (or andrastian to some degree) of course does affect (or did affect in origins) the way I made the moral choices. (meaning my evil human noble was religious, the good guy mage clearly an atheist)

[In Exile]

Frolk wrote...

Funny, I was playing a few hours ago and just came upon that option (this was after I made the comment that you quoted).  Still, it's not so much a statement of disbelief in the Maker as it is a lack of reverence.

That's how I'd express my atheism to a religious person. But then again, I just find arguments were someone won't budge counter-productive, and I tend to abandon them in a hurry.

Modifié par In Exile, 02 juin 2011 - 04:55 .

[In Exile]

Tirfan wrote...

For me this was one of the greatest things that bugged me in Hawke - I think I got the "I believe in the maker" line in Merril romance, it was the final point where I realized that Hawke really wasn't my character. And yes, this does make a big difference for my characters, if I considered them secular/atheist or andrastian (or andrastian to some degree) of course does affect (or did affect in origins) the way I made the moral choices. (meaning my evil human noble was religious, the good guy mage clearly an atheist)

I'm not far enough in my Merril playthrough to have gotten the line, I think. Is this at the end of Act III? Does it depend on the dominant personality? Is there a paraphrase or does Hawke say it automatically?

Modifié par In Exile, 02 juin 2011 - 04:56 .

[In Exile]

marshalleck wrote...
I'm sorry, but I think that's kind of a load of crap. Sure, the philosophical arguments weren't developed by then but as an example, it shouldn't be hard for a reasonably perceptive, intuitive person to understand that for crops to grow you need water, sunlight, and good soil. Appeasing the gods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Of course, having roving bands of religious fanatics putting people in thumbscrews and burning others at the stake tends to quash any dissenting views from being voiced in public.

Speaking historically, for a very long time you had the idea of natural magic which was essentially the underpining of science. In other words, the idea was that things that were in principle said to be magical could be understood and replicated.

More generally, you're really underestimating how difficult it is to churn out a causal pathway. The problem isn't that an average person couldn't figure out real causes. It's that nonsense causes (like praying to the gods) would be almost impossible to tease aparat on a personal scale because there'd be no way to test them. Our internal understanding of statistics is b0rked and we have a natural confirmation bias.

[Ariella]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

I address this because while there maybe one or two canon established atheists, they are the exception, not the rule Avernus has very good reason not to want to believe in the Maker (blood mage, power hungry murdering guy that he is) and Morrigan being raised by Flemmeth also had a specific reason not to believe in the Maker, but neither of them are good examples of the regular populace of Thedas.

Avernus is trying to find a means to unlock the powers of the taint, that can give the Wardens the edge they need against the darkspawn. It doesn't change the fact that he's an Andrastian who doesn't believe in the Maker, which is no different than a Cousland protagonist who admits he doesn't believe in the Maker, either, and he (or she)was raised in a comfortable enviornment to the point where it's said he may become the new Teyrn instead of Fergus.

So you're saying Avernus reasons don't matter as long as he's an atheist, and the end justifies the means? He murdered innocents, in my book, and every atheist I've ever known would agree with me that that is WRONG. It doesn't matter if one believes in a god, there are some things are right and some things are wrong and murdering people for experiements is wrong. Avernus was concerned with his own power, he was a coward and power hungry as the demons themselves. The only thing he was trying to do by using the taint by the time one comes in contact with him is save his own butt from being possessed. Using HIM as an example of an atheist doesn't exactly help your cause.

[Ariella]

marshalleck wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Medieval europeans were Catholic, and that's what this was based on. A few were Jewish, but they were segregated, there weren't that many statistically speaking and there was great prejudice against them. A person of Hawke's social class would be Catholic, meaning that in the Thedas parallel, Hawke would be Andrastian. Both the reformation and modern secular concepts like atheism were a long way away. The game refelcts modern issues, but it's set in a medieval timeframe and Hawke's religion is consistant with that. The idea of atheism just isn't something that would have occurred to a medieval person.

I'm sorry, but I think that's kind of a load of crap. Sure, the philosophical arguments weren't developed by then but as an example, it shouldn't be hard for a reasonably perceptive, intuitive person to understand that for crops to grow you need water, sunlight, and good soil. Appeasing the gods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Of course, having roving bands of religious fanatics putting people in thumbscrews and burning others at the stake tends to quash any dissenting views from being voiced in public.

Where would this idea come from? Where would the average person be exposed to it? It's not like Hawke is going to have access to a great deal of philosophy as she's growing up.

[marshalleck]

Ariella wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Medieval europeans were Catholic, and that's what this was based on. A few were Jewish, but they were segregated, there weren't that many statistically speaking and there was great prejudice against them. A person of Hawke's social class would be Catholic, meaning that in the Thedas parallel, Hawke would be Andrastian. Both the reformation and modern secular concepts like atheism were a long way away. The game refelcts modern issues, but it's set in a medieval timeframe and Hawke's religion is consistant with that. The idea of atheism just isn't something that would have occurred to a medieval person.

I'm sorry, but I think that's kind of a load of crap. Sure, the philosophical arguments weren't developed by then but as an example, it shouldn't be hard for a reasonably perceptive, intuitive person to understand that for crops to grow you need water, sunlight, and good soil. Appeasing the gods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Of course, having roving bands of religious fanatics putting people in thumbscrews and burning others at the stake tends to quash any dissenting views from being voiced in public.

Where would this idea come from? Where would the average person be exposed to it? It's not like Hawke is going to have access to a great deal of philosophy as she's growing up.

The simple beauty of it is you don't need philosophy to watch some plants grow and produce under ideal circumstances, while others whither and die or simply don't grow at all. Agriculture is one of humanity's most ancient traditions, and it was achieved without the accumulation of 2,500 years of western philosophical thought.

You don't need a formalized school of thought and academic tradition to make intuitive observations about the world around you.

And to clarify, I am not saying "Hawke should be an atheist because agriculture!"

I'm saying, it should be reasonably possible--given the absence of miracles and divine intervention from the Maker, as well as simple observance of natural phenomena--for one to conclude that perhaps the Maker and the Chantry are all a bunch of hogwash. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 juin 2011 - 05:18 .

[Aesieru]

ACTUALLY...

You'd be wrong there, and it's funny in what way you're wrong.

We did agriculture... wrong, until we used philosophical thought to actually correct it.

Do some refresh on sun-timings and related.

[kaiki01]

marshalleck wrote...

Ariella wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Medieval europeans were Catholic, and that's what this was based on. A few were Jewish, but they were segregated, there weren't that many statistically speaking and there was great prejudice against them. A person of Hawke's social class would be Catholic, meaning that in the Thedas parallel, Hawke would be Andrastian. Both the reformation and modern secular concepts like atheism were a long way away. The game refelcts modern issues, but it's set in a medieval timeframe and Hawke's religion is consistant with that. The idea of atheism just isn't something that would have occurred to a medieval person.

I'm sorry, but I think that's kind of a load of crap. Sure, the philosophical arguments weren't developed by then but as an example, it shouldn't be hard for a reasonably perceptive, intuitive person to understand that for crops to grow you need water, sunlight, and good soil. Appeasing the gods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Of course, having roving bands of religious fanatics putting people in thumbscrews and burning others at the stake tends to quash any dissenting views from being voiced in public.

Where would this idea come from? Where would the average person be exposed to it? It's not like Hawke is going to have access to a great deal of philosophy as she's growing up.

The simple beauty of it is you don't need philosophy to watch some plants grow and produce under ideal circumstances, while others whither and die or simply don't grow at all. Agriculture is one of humanity's most ancient traditions, and it was achieved without the accumulation of 2,500 years of western philosophical thought. 

Your agriculture argument is flawed. You are assuming that an observer would be able to connect conditions with outcomes or that an observer would know/understand the conditions in the first place. How would someone know what ideal circumstances were without any prior knowledge? How would an observer even intuitivly understand nitrogen depletion? You are over-estimating a single person's ability to solve very complex problems through simple observation.

- in response to edit after I posted -

Again I think you are over-estimating what a person could intuitivly discern as natural phenomena vs spiritual or divine intervention. In a situation where the environment changes, with no obvious obversable cause, is it really an easy conclusion that there was no spiritual or divine influence and that natural phenomena was the cause?

Modifié par kaiki01, 02 juin 2011 - 05:32 .

[Realmzmaster]

errant_knight wrote...

Medieval europeans were Catholic, and that's what this was based on. A few were Jewish, but they were segregated, there weren't that many statistically speaking and there was great prejudice against them. A person of Hawke's social class would be Catholic, meaning that in the Thedas parallel, Hawke would be Andrastian. Both the reformation and modern secular concepts like atheism were a long way away. The game refelcts modern issues, but it's set in a medieval timeframe and Hawke's religion is consistant with that. The idea of atheism just isn't something that would have occurred to a medieval person.

Actually atheist thought appear in Europe and Asia between 6th and 5th century BCE. The intensity of Hawke's religious views is not greatly explored in the game. He may utter a few pharses in combat about Andraste and the Maker. For example in the quest,  the Long Road he remarks that Aveline is bad at romance, by saying Oh Maker she is bad at this.
But that is more of an expression of disbelief in her ability than anything religious. In DAO you had the guards saying things like Andraste's knickers.

Religion plays an important part in the world around Hawke, but not necessarily to Hawke herself/himself. She/he may identify himself /herself as an Andrastian, but the game never expounds upon that identification.

The game itself plays down the role of religion in the party. You notice that mages are the ones who have healing spells and there is no cleric class or paladin class as you had in D & D based games. Nor do you see anyone in the Chantry healing people.

[errant_knight]

marshalleck wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Medieval europeans were Catholic, and that's what this was based on. A few were Jewish, but they were segregated, there weren't that many statistically speaking and there was great prejudice against them. A person of Hawke's social class would be Catholic, meaning that in the Thedas parallel, Hawke would be Andrastian. Both the reformation and modern secular concepts like atheism were a long way away. The game refelcts modern issues, but it's set in a medieval timeframe and Hawke's religion is consistant with that. The idea of atheism just isn't something that would have occurred to a medieval person.

I'm sorry, but I think that's kind of a load of crap. Sure, the philosophical arguments weren't developed by then but as an example, it shouldn't be hard for a reasonably perceptive, intuitive person to understand that for crops to grow you need water, sunlight, and good soil. Appeasing the gods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Of course, having roving bands of religious fanatics putting people in thumbscrews and burning others at the stake tends to quash any dissenting views from being voiced in public.

Hey, if you're going to call someone's opinion a load of crap, don't bother with the apology. You obviously don't give a crap about civil discourse. That was completely unnecessary.

[LobselVith8]

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?

Yes. Avernus and Morrigan are

DA:O gave the impression that Morrigan believed in the Old Gods, just not in the god of Andreste(sp).

Morrigan talks about the Old Gods because everyone acknowledges them as real; the Old Gods are tainted by darkspawn, and become the Archdemons. Morrigan makes it clear with the Dark Ritual that she wants to preserve one of the last remaining mysteries of the world. Morrigan never says she believes in the Old God as deities in the way the Tevinter Magisters used to. Morrigan's reference to the Old Gods is no different than when they are brought up by Alistair and Riordian, both of whom are Andrastians.

[Ariella]

leonia42 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

That's NOT what was said.  Be honest.  The statement was that children in loving homes TEND to follow the religious example of their parents.  And that's true.

Did it need to be said at all. What a slap in the face to atheists who grew up in believe households or believers that sprung from atheist parents. It didn't contribute to the thread topic at all and it's hardly a true statement. Regardless of the intent, it wasn't needed and I see the comment doing more harm than good. What does it matter in-real life how things work, we're talking about Thedas here.  

ected anything less.And while you can interpret that Hawke grew up in a loving household,
you can't state that the parents (or well, mother) was overly religious.
All you know is that Hawke hails from a noble family that were
Andrastians, you don't know that Leandra made baby Hawke pray to the
Maker every night and recite the chant and say grace at dinner.

The
statement (which I took slight offense to, admittedly) coupled with the
fact that the poster was trying to prove that Hawke was a devote
Andrastian raised by a loving Andrastian family makes so many blatant
and unnecessary assumptions that I find it quite unworthy of being
posted it all. But most of that poster's argument hinged on assumptions
about real-world religion and in-game interactions so I suppose I
shouldn't have exp

I just found it rich that someone who admits to be a non-practicing religious person is trying to tell us how loving families work and how religion works in those families when they are already a hypocrite in my book.

And I just love it when people jump to conclusions about WHY I'm saying what I'm saying. How is it hypocritical to make outside observations based on psychology? People tend to carry their first socializations with them. Depending on how parents treat their children and to a certain extent extended families treat those children tend to cement further those beliefs. And it's not just religion that's communicated this way, it's attitudes toward ethinic groups, towards other religions, toward ethics. A lot is communicated in that first socialization. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with atheism: Harry Truman. Good Missouri boy who was raised in a house hold where hatred of Jews and Blacks was institutionalized. And he liked neither group til his dying day, yet his responsibilities made him rise above that socialzation in the end, to the point where he desegregated the US military, and recognized Israel.

I never said Hawke was devout, I said Hawke most likely believed in the Maker due to socialization, no more no less. The amount by which she believed was never discussed. I also never said that Leandra was overly religious either. If you talk to the Grand Cleric, it is obvious that Leandra was raised with religion in her life and it was positive enough life for her to most likely pass it on to her children. How much is up to the player, but it's there.

It is possible that Hawke might reject the Maker post DA2, and probable (depending on who's side one is on) that she reject the Chantry certainly, but for Hawke to start out that way... there's no logical basis for it,

And Leonia, if you were offended I apologize, but it is a fact that first socializations, in whatever form come from family, and the better treated the child the more likely the child is to follow in their parents footsteps. It's a general psychological observation, not a slam saying atheists can't come from loving homes.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Avernus is trying to find a means to unlock the powers of the taint, that can give the Wardens the edge they need against the darkspawn. It doesn't change the fact that he's an Andrastian who doesn't believe in the Maker, which is no different than a Cousland protagonist who admits he doesn't believe in the Maker, either, and he (or she)was raised in a comfortable enviornment to the point where it's said he may become the new Teyrn instead of Fergus.

So you're saying Avernus reasons don't matter as long as he's an atheist, and the end justifies the means?

Addressing that Avernus can be an atheist addresses that atheists exist in Thedas. Addressing that Avernus' research can provide a means to ending the darkspawn threat, where people are eaten alive and women are violated to become Broodmothers, is a pragmatic reason to keep him alive and continuing his research for anyone who takes the role of a Grey Warden seriously. As Alistair points out, the Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary, and that includes some pretty extreme things.

Ariella wrote...

He murdered innocents, in my book, and every atheist I've ever known would agree with me that that is WRONG. It doesn't matter if one believes in a god, there are some things are right and some things are wrong and murdering people for experiements is wrong.

The darkspawn's goal of committing genocide against every sentient race in Thedas triumphs what Avernus did; the millennia long struggle against "the true fulcrum of evil" means that the darkspawn need to be stopped, no matter the cost. They devastated virtually all of the dwarven kingdoms and risked the lives of the surface nations for a thousand years. If Avernus can provide a means to give the Wardens the necessary edge to stop the darkspawn, I'm not going to kill him. The darkspawn need to be stopped.

Ariella wrote...

Avernus was concerned with his own power, he was a coward and power hungry as the demons themselves. The only thing he was trying to do by using the taint by the time one comes in contact with him is save his own butt from being possessed. Using HIM as an example of an atheist doesn't exactly help your cause.

Besides the fact that you have no evidence that Avernus was power hungry, and he's willing to submit himself to execution at the hands of a Warden protagonist, his research could mean a difference for the success against the darkspawn.

And to get back on-topic, I wish we had the same degree of control over our DA2 protagonist that we did over the Origins protagonist, which includes making him (or her) an atheist.

[kaiki01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Havokk7 wrote...

Is anyone in this fictional world an atheist?

Yes. Avernus and Morrigan are

DA:O gave the impression that Morrigan believed in the Old Gods, just not in the god of Andreste(sp).

Morrigan talks about the Old Gods because everyone acknowledges them as real; the Old Gods are tainted by darkspawn, and become the Archdemons. Morrigan makes it clear with the Dark Ritual that she wants to preserve one of the last remaining mysteries of the world. Morrigan never says she believes in the Old God as deities in the way the Tevinter Magisters used to. Morrigan's reference to the Old Gods is no different than when they are brought up by Alistair and Riordian, both of whom are Andrastians.

When the Warden spends the night with
Morrigan she says dialogue that gives the impression that preserving the
Old God essence in the archdemon was the most important thing in her
life. Even subtler(or more misreading on my part) Morrigan talks again and again as old ways that are important. I interpreted her character as someone who does believe in the Old Gods as dieties. An explicit statement of belief wasn't required for me to come up with that interpretation. There is room for debate, but since there is room for debate I do not think you can characterize Morrigan as an atheist.

[Furtled]

ipgd wrote...
Pretend Hawke's battle cries are a figure of speech? I'm as militant an atheist as you can get and I still use "oh my god" and "go to hell" et al.

Pretty much this, these types of words/phrases have as much or as little power as you choose to give them. I doubt anyone in my office considers me religious no matter how often I might mutter 'sweet zombie jesus', 'christ almighty' or 'for the love of God' (accompanied by the obligatory eyeroll/facepalm).

With that in mind Hawke's battlecries can make them as religious/agnostic/atheist as I choose them to be. My memory's not fantastic when it comes to Origins but I *think* most of the obvious 'don't spout your beardy man in the sky nonsense at me bub' bits were linked to non human Wardens.

Modifié par Furtled, 02 juin 2011 - 06:00 .

[Ariella]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Avernus is trying to find a means to unlock the powers of the taint, that can give the Wardens the edge they need against the darkspawn. It doesn't change the fact that he's an Andrastian who doesn't believe in the Maker, which is no different than a Cousland protagonist who admits he doesn't believe in the Maker, either, and he (or she)was raised in a comfortable enviornment to the point where it's said he may become the new Teyrn instead of Fergus.

So you're saying Avernus reasons don't matter as long as he's an atheist, and the end justifies the means?

Addressing that Avernus can be an atheist addresses that atheists exist in Thedas. Addressing that Avernus' research can provide a means to ending the darkspawn threat, where people are eaten alive and women are violated to become Broodmothers, is a pragmatic reason to keep him alive and continuing his research for anyone who takes the role of a Grey Warden seriously. As Alistair points out, the Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary, and that includes some pretty extreme things.

I swear if the Tomcats that are buzzing you get any lower, they're going to hit you in the forehead. ATHEISM as in the philosophy which is followed by large groups of people and considered positive does not exist in Thedas. The concept of secularism is only beginning to exist in Thedas. Using a murderer and the daughter of an abomination to prove your point that the concept is available to society at large is not viable proof. It's too small of a population.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Avernus is trying to find a means to unlock the powers of the taint, that can give the Wardens the edge they need against the darkspawn. It doesn't change the fact that he's an Andrastian who doesn't believe in the Maker, which is no different than a Cousland protagonist who admits he doesn't believe in the Maker, either, and he (or she)was raised in a comfortable enviornment to the point where it's said he may become the new Teyrn instead of Fergus.

So you're saying Avernus reasons don't matter as long as he's an atheist, and the end justifies the means?

Addressing that Avernus can be an atheist addresses that atheists exist in Thedas. Addressing that Avernus' research can provide a means to ending the darkspawn threat, where people are eaten alive and women are violated to become Broodmothers, is a pragmatic reason to keep him alive and continuing his research for anyone who takes the role of a Grey Warden seriously. As Alistair points out, the Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary, and that includes some pretty extreme things.

I swear if the Tomcats that are buzzing you get any lower, they're going to hit you in the forehead. ATHEISM as in the philosophy which is followed by large groups of people and considered positive does not exist in Thedas.

It does exist in Thedas, as the Cousland Warden alone proves. Not to mention Morrigan, Avernus, and likely Aveline. Simply because you personally disagree with atheism doesn't mean that it does not exist in Thedas. Attacking the characters themselves for being atheists doesn't change that they are atheists in a world where you're repeatedly claiming that atheism doesn't exist, which clearly isn't factually accurate.

Ariella wrote...

The concept of secularism is only beginning to exist in Thedas. Using a murderer and the daughter of an abomination to prove your point that the concept is available to society at large is not viable proof. It's too small of a population.

You're forgetting about The Warden, the inevitable Hero of Ferelden, and more than likely Aveline given her comments about the Maker and the Chant.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 juin 2011 - 06:17 .