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[LobselVith8]

kaiki01 wrote...

When the Warden spends the night with Morrigan she says dialogue that gives the impression that preserving the
Old God essence in the archdemon was the most important thing in her life.

Morrigan makes it clear she wants to preserve what the Old God was before it was tainted, which doesn't mean she believes it's a deity to be worshipped.

kaiki01 wrote...

Even subtler(or more misreading on my part) Morrigan talks again and again as old ways that are important.

Morrigan says in Witch Hunt that she's preparing the child for his destiny.

kaiki01 wrote...

I interpreted her character as someone who does believe in the Old Gods as dieties.

You're welcome to that interpretation, but it's never explicitly or implicitly said that Morrigan worships the Old Gods. Given that she's an apostate who thinks that preserving knowledge is good (as she gives approval to the Warden who says such, and is surprised if it's said by a mage), I don't think it means she worships the Old Gods. There's no evidence from Flemeth or Morrigan that they worship any deity. Morrigan even says that she was taught to trust in her own power.

kaiki01 wrote...

An explicit statement of belief wasn't required for me to come up with that interpretation. There is room for debate, but since there is room for debate I do not think you can characterize Morrigan as an atheist.

I can characterize Morrigan as an atheist because you're addressing your theory with nothing to back up the idea that Morrigan is doing anything more than preserving one of the last great mysteries of the world from destruction, while Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't worship the Maker and gives no indication she worships any deity or deities. Wanting to preserve the soul of an Old God from extinction (as well as the life of a person she can grow to care about or even love, as Gaider and Aimo's comic explicitly states was her intent) doesn't mean she worships the Old Gods, after all.

[kaiki01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

When the Warden spends the night with Morrigan she says dialogue that gives the impression that preserving the
Old God essence in the archdemon was the most important thing in her life.

Morrigan makes it clear she wants to preserve what the Old God was before it was tainted, which doesn't mean she believes it's a deity to be worshipped.

kaiki01 wrote...

Even subtler(or more misreading on my part) Morrigan talks again and again as old ways that are important.

Morrigan says in Witch Hunt that she's preparing the child for his destiny.

kaiki01 wrote...

I interpreted her character as someone who does believe in the Old Gods as dieties.

You're welcome to that interpretation, but it's never explicitly or implicitly said that Morrigan worships the Old Gods. Given that she's an apostate who thinks that preserving knowledge is good (as she gives approval to the Warden who says such, and is surprised if it's said by a mage), I don't think it means she worships the Old Gods. There's no evidence from Flemeth or Morrigan that they worship any deity. Morrigan even says that she was taught to trust in her own power.

kaiki01 wrote...

An explicit statement of belief wasn't required for me to come up with that interpretation. There is room for debate, but since there is room for debate I do not think you can characterize Morrigan as an atheist.

I can characterize Morrigan as an atheist because you're addressing your theory with nothing to back up the idea that Morrigan is doing anything more than preserving one of the last great mysteries of the world from destruction, while Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't worship the Maker and gives no indication she worships any deity or deities. Wanting to preserve the soul of an Old God from extinction (as well as the life of a person she can grow to care about or even love, as Gaider and Aimo's comic explicitly states was her intent) doesn't mean she worships the Old Gods, after all.

Point #2) What does you response have to do with anything? I was refering to her comments about apostates and shapshifting magic.

Point #3) I think it is implicit that she at the very least has reverence for the Old Gods. Throughout the game she has presented her belifs as caring for herself over anything else. Survival has meaning, I believe she says. The fact that she cares so deeply about saving the Old God makes me think that there is more there then just preserving knowledge/ a mystery. In the scene just before the ritual, the acting and writing for Morrigan makes it seem that there is a deeper personal motivation.

Point #4) First off, the motivation for protecting the person she can grow to care about is based on a possible playthrough. That can be absent, yet she will still want to carry through with the ritual. Second, you can do whatever you want, I will still think that you can interpret Morrigan's character as following the Old Gods. I am using her dialog and characterization up to that point in the game.

- edit -

Morrigan doesn't need to worship the Old Gods to believe that they are deities. There are example of fictional and real world cultures where people did believe in deities but did not offer worship. Morrigan can have a similar attitude.

Modifié par kaiki01, 02 juin 2011 - 06:25 .

[LobselVith8]

kaiki01 wrote...

Point #2) What does you response have to do with anything? I was refering to her comments about apostates and shapshifting magic.

About the hedge witches and ancient magic? I liked Morrigan's perspective, it was a nice contrast to the Chantry rhetoric about mages and magic.

kaiki01 wrote...

Point #3) I think it is implicit that she at the very least has reverence for the Old Gods. Throughout the game she has presented her belifs as caring for herself over anything else. Survival has meaning, I believe she says. The fact that she cares so deeply about saving the Old God makes me think that there is more there then just preserving knowledge/ a mystery. In the scene just before the ritual, the acting and writing for Morrigan makes it seem that there is a deeper personal motivation.

Except Gaider planned to demonstrate that Morrigan wouldn't have even gone through with the ritual originally, since she thought the Orlesian Wardens would have arrived to resolve the dilemma with the Archdemon. The dark ritual only transpired because The Warden had two other Grey Wardens with him, as Gaider and Aimo's comic explicitly addressed.

kaiki01 wrote...

Point #4) First off, the motivation for protecting the person she can grow to care about is based on a possible playthrough. That can be absent, yet she will still want to carry through with the ritual. Second, you can do whatever you want, I will still think that you can interpret Morrigan's character as following the Old Gods. I am using her dialog and characterization up to that point in the game.

I'm addressing that Gaider has stated it was planned to have been included in the actual game as the reason, but was cut for time and included in the Gaider/Aimo strip. Also, Morrigan never says she believes in the Old Gods, in Origins or Witch Hunt. If worship of the Old Gods played a part in her decision, I'd imagine that it would have been addressed in the storyline or the Gaider/Aimo comic.

[kaiki01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

Point #2) What does you response have to do with anything? I was refering to her comments about apostates and shapshifting magic.

About the hedge witches and ancient magic? I liked Morrigan's perspective, it was a nice contrast to the Chantry rhetoric about mages and magic.

kaiki01 wrote...

Point #3) I think it is implicit that she at the very least has reverence for the Old Gods. Throughout the game she has presented her belifs as caring for herself over anything else. Survival has meaning, I believe she says. The fact that she cares so deeply about saving the Old God makes me think that there is more there then just preserving knowledge/ a mystery. In the scene just before the ritual, the acting and writing for Morrigan makes it seem that there is a deeper personal motivation.

Except Gaider planned to demonstrate that Morrigan wouldn't have even gone through with the ritual originally, since she thought the Orlesian Wardens would have arrived to resolve the dilemma with the Archdemon. The dark ritual only transpired because The Warden had two other Grey Wardens with him, as Gaider and Aimo's comic explicitly addressed.

kaiki01 wrote...

Point #4) First off, the motivation for protecting the person she can grow to care about is based on a possible playthrough. That can be absent, yet she will still want to carry through with the ritual. Second, you can do whatever you want, I will still think that you can interpret Morrigan's character as following the Old Gods. I am using her dialog and characterization up to that point in the game.

I'm addressing that Gaider has stated it was planned to have been included in the actual game as the reason, but was cut for time and included in the Gaider/Aimo strip. Also, Morrigan never says she believes in the Old Gods, in Origins or Witch Hunt. If worship of the Old Gods played a part in her decision, I'd imagine that it would have been addressed in the storyline or the Gaider/Aimo comic.

I had the impression that was fan art that a Gaider did in an un-official capacity. But, if it wasn't in DA:O, or official DA media(comics, books, games) I have the instinct to say it didn't happen or didn't exist.

[Ariella]

kaiki01 wrote...

I had the impression that was fan art that a Gaider did in an un-official capacity. But, if it wasn't in DA:O, or official DA media(comics, books, games) I have the instinct to say it didn't happen or didn't exist.

It was unofficial, and only fit under specific circustances anyway that had nothing to do with Morrigan'd belief.

Morrigan says in game if one presses that her purpose going with the Warden was to fulfill this ritual.

[Ariella]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...
I swear if the Tomcats that are buzzing you get any lower, they're going to hit you in the forehead. ATHEISM as in the philosophy which is followed by large groups of people and considered positive does not exist in Thedas.

It does exist in Thedas, as the Cousland Warden alone proves. Not to mention Morrigan, Avernus, and likely Aveline. Simply because you personally disagree with atheism doesn't mean that it does not exist in Thedas. Attacking the characters themselves for being atheists doesn't change that they are atheists in a world where you're repeatedly claiming that atheism doesn't exist, which clearly isn't factually accurate.

Ariella wrote...

The concept of secularism is only beginning to exist in Thedas. Using a murderer and the daughter of an abomination to prove your point that the concept is available to society at large is not viable proof. It's too small of a population.

You're forgetting about The Warden, the inevitable Hero of Ferelden, and more than likely Aveline given her comments about the Maker and the Chant.

Aveline is a question mark as her comments can also be interperated as agnosticism, and the Warden can also be religious and in most cases isn't offered the option which puts you back to two confirmed atheists. One who's a murderer and the other who is the daughter of an abomination.

What part of "as a philosophy which is followed by a large group of people and is considered postive" do you not get. I never said that there might not be a person here and there that might not believe. But psychologically and sociologically speaking, the way Thedas' human society is set up, it would be difficult if not almost impossible for the average person to be an atheist. Neither of you examples are which I am accepting as unquestionably atheist are among the average in Thedas human society.

Modifié par Ariella, 02 juin 2011 - 09:17 .

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

I had the impression that was fan art that a Gaider did in an un-official capacity. But, if it wasn't in DA:O, or official DA media(comics, books, games) I have the instinct to say it didn't happen or didn't exist.

It was unofficial, and only fit under specific circustances anyway that had nothing to do with Morrigan'd belief.

Morrigan says in game if one presses that her purpose going with the Warden was to fulfill this ritual.

It was in part created by David Gaider and said to be what was supposed to be in the game, but wasn't because of time constraints.

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...
I swear if the Tomcats that are buzzing you get any lower, they're going to hit you in the forehead. ATHEISM as in the philosophy which is followed by large groups of people and considered positive does not exist in Thedas.

It does exist in Thedas, as the Cousland Warden alone proves. Not to mention Morrigan, Avernus, and likely Aveline. Simply because you personally disagree with atheism doesn't mean that it does not exist in Thedas. Attacking the characters themselves for being atheists doesn't change that they are atheists in a world where you're repeatedly claiming that atheism doesn't exist, which clearly isn't factually accurate.

Ariella wrote...

The concept of secularism is only beginning to exist in Thedas. Using a murderer and the daughter of an abomination to prove your point that the concept is available to society at large is not viable proof. It's too small of a population.

You're forgetting about The Warden, the inevitable Hero of Ferelden, and more than likely Aveline given her comments about the Maker and the Chant.

Aveline is a question mark as her comments can also be interperated as agnosticism, and the Warden can also be religious and in most cases isn't offered the option which puts you back to two confirmed atheists. One who's a murderer and the other who is the daughter of an abomination.

The Warden can be an atheist, which is the entire point; I'm not advocating that Hawke should have been forced to be an atheist, but that the option should have been provided for people who wanted to go through the storyline with a character who wasn't Andrastian the same way it was provided for the Warden protagonist.

Ariella wrote...

What part of "as a philosophy which is followed by a large group of people and is considered postive" do you not get. I never said that there might not be a person here and there that might not believe. But psychologically and sociologically speaking, the way Thedas' human society is set up, it would be difficult if not almost impossible for the average person to be an atheist. Neither of you examples are which I am accepting as unquestionably atheist are among the average in Thedas human society.

I'm not addressing the average person, I'm addressing Hawke, and you seemed to have taken issue with the idea of an atheist protagonist for pages now.

[Arrtis]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I noticed that in Origins, the player could control whether The Warden was religious or not. However, we lack the same control over the protagonist of Dragon Age 2 to determine whether Hawke is Andrastian or not. Hawke's battlecries are supposed to be Andrastian, he says lines of dialogue that make it clear he's Andrastian, and the player has no control over this. It doesn't make any sense to me that this would be the case when Origins provided us with control over the protagonist's religious convictions, or lackthereof. Atheism is a concept that's been around for many centuries, and it's been noted historically all over the world. Thedas is supposed to reflect some aspects of our society, like the comparisons between England and Ferelden, for instance, but it seems this degree of control is gone for the protagonist. I don't understand why this is the case. Why are we denied the right to determine Hawke's religious convictions in an RPG where we're supposed to "create" the character? Why do we have no choice in the matter?

They are just being lazy.
They dont wanna work half as hard as they did on origins.

[Ariella]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

I had the impression that was fan art that a Gaider did in an un-official capacity. But, if it wasn't in DA:O, or official DA media(comics, books, games) I have the instinct to say it didn't happen or didn't exist.

It was unofficial, and only fit under specific circustances anyway that had nothing to do with Morrigan'd belief.

Morrigan says in game if one presses that her purpose going with the Warden was to fulfill this ritual.

It was in part created by David Gaider and said to be what was supposed to be in the game, but wasn't because of time constraints.

There's an old saying "if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage". Dave Gaider has written fan fic before (pretty good to) but it's not official unless we hear specifically that it is, AND considering it deal with a female warden and there's no such thing as canon in this game anyway.... It doesn't really matter. And it really says nothing about Morrigan;s belief. Morrigan can and does have several motivations. Pointing to one and saying "That's the only reason she did this." doesn't help.

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...
I swear if the Tomcats that are buzzing you get any lower, they're going to hit you in the forehead. ATHEISM as in the philosophy which is followed by large groups of people and considered positive does not exist in Thedas.

It does exist in Thedas, as the Cousland Warden alone proves. Not to mention Morrigan, Avernus, and likely Aveline. Simply because you personally disagree with atheism doesn't mean that it does not exist in Thedas. Attacking the characters themselves for being atheists doesn't change that they are atheists in a world where you're repeatedly claiming that atheism doesn't exist, which clearly isn't factually accurate.

Ariella wrote...

The concept of secularism is only beginning to exist in Thedas. Using a murderer and the daughter of an abomination to prove your point that the concept is available to society at large is not viable proof. It's too small of a population.

You're forgetting about The Warden, the inevitable Hero of Ferelden, and more than likely Aveline given her comments about the Maker and the Chant.

Aveline is a question mark as her comments can also be interperated as agnosticism, and the Warden can also be religious and in most cases isn't offered the option which puts you back to two confirmed atheists. One who's a murderer and the other who is the daughter of an abomination.

The Warden can be an atheist, which is the entire point; I'm not advocating that Hawke should have been forced to be an atheist, but that the option should have been provided for people who wanted to go through the storyline with a character who wasn't Andrastian the same way it was provided for the Warden protagonist.

One version of the Warden based on a throwaway line, and a line that never made sense to me at that. The line was illogical, unless it was being used to yank Mallol's tail, and the Cousland child felt very comfortable in doing it, because even an idiot would know saying something like that seriously could get you killed.

Ariella wrote...

What part of "as a philosophy which is followed by a large group of people and is considered postive" do you not get. I never said that there might not be a person here and there that might not believe. But psychologically and sociologically speaking, the way Thedas' human society is set up, it would be difficult if not almost impossible for the average person to be an atheist. Neither of you examples are which I am accepting as unquestionably atheist are among the average in Thedas human society.

I'm not addressing the average person, I'm addressing Hawke, and you seemed to have taken issue with the idea of an atheist protagonist for pages now.

Hawke IS an average person at the start of the game. That's the whole point of Dragon Age 2, which is why I've been saying what I've been saying. As of 9:31 Dragon Age, there's no impetus for Hawke not to believe and every impetus to do so. As of 9:41 Dragon Age, that may or may not be accurate based on the way the player plays Hawke during the game.

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

[GavrielKay]

Ariella wrote...

There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

There are probably more atheists around than most people realize.  Especially in a society that really doesn't accept it very gracefully.  And a causal event can be laying awake at night thinking to yourself, gee, that doesn't really make sense.

It would have been nice to be able to play an outspoken non-Andrastian character (not just in my head).  But I would prioritize it lower than things like more maps and a sensible story line.

For those who say "just RP whatever you like" I agree with that, but then I wish the game wouldn't have my character say things that contradict what I'm trying to RP.  Sometimes if you can't treat a subject well, you're better off avoiding it entirely.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

There's an old saying "if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage". Dave Gaider has written fan fic before (pretty good to) but it's not official unless we hear specifically that it is, AND considering it deal with a female warden and there's no such thing as canon in this game anyway.... It doesn't really matter. And it really says nothing about Morrigan;s belief. Morrigan can and does have several motivations. Pointing to one and saying "That's the only reason she did this." doesn't help.

I never said it was the only reason Morrigan wanted to do the dark ritual, but given that Morrigan makes it clear to a friend or a romantic interest that keeping them alive is the primary reason even without the comic that Gaider had worked on with Aimo, and that she was tasked for this by Flemeth originally, it's not as simplistic as you make it out to be.

Ariella wrote...

One version of the Warden based on a throwaway line, and a line that never made sense to me at that. The line was illogical, unless it was being used to yank Mallol's tail, and the Cousland child felt very comfortable in doing it, because even an idiot would know saying something like that seriously could get you killed.

You're welcome to think it makes no sense to be an atheist, but it doesn't change the fact that in canon, the protagonist of Origins and the inevitable Hero of Ferelden can be an atheist. You seem eager to dismiss the comic by Gaider and Aimo because it's not within the context of the actual storyline, but you're also eager to dismiss what's verbally said by the protagonist within the storyline at the same time.

Ariella wrote...

Hawke IS an average person at the start of the game.

Hawke is the son of an apostate (Malcolm) with an apostate sister (Bethany), and he's possibly an apostate himself. That doesn't make Hawke the "average person."

Ariella wrote...

That's the whole point of Dragon Age 2, which is why I've been saying what I've been saying. As of 9:31 Dragon Age, there's no impetus for Hawke not to believe and every impetus to do so. As of 9:41 Dragon Age, that may or may not be accurate based on the way the player plays Hawke during the game.

There are plenty of reasons for the son (or daughter) of an apostate to have disdain for the Chantry and not believe in the Maker, particularly when the templars are willing to murder his father, his sister, and possibly even himself because they are all mages.

Ariella wrote...

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

I respectfully disagree. Hawke does have reason to not be an Andrastian - his apostate heritage. He's from the Parthalan line as well as the Amell line, his father was hunted, and his family had to move because of Malcolm and Bethany (as well as Hawke if he was an illegal mage). There's amble reason for Hawke not to believe in the Maker, and no reason that players should be denied the choice to make their protagonist an atheist when they were afforded the choice to make the Cousland noble an atheist.

[Tirfan]

Hawke IS an average person at the start of the game. That's the whole point of Dragon Age 2, which is why I've been saying what I've been saying. As of 9:31 Dragon Age, there's no impetus for Hawke not to believe and every impetus to do so. As of 9:41 Dragon Age, that may or may not be accurate based on the way the player plays Hawke during the game.

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

Seriously, for me to realize the faith I had been brought up in was complete and utter bulls*it all I needed was to read a few parts of the bible - while we don't know the exact contents of the chant of light, I wouldn't be surprised that it was filled with inconsistencies about the real world etc, much like the bible, and yes, this is a rather wild guess. The point is - you don't need certain kind of knowledge, a bit of logical thinking is all and a bit of critical thinking about the surrounding world. (okay, this may be why Hawke can't be an atheist in the game, s/he doesn't seem to think about anything s/he does very often.)

[Ariella]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ariella wrote...

There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

There are probably more atheists around than most people realize.  Especially in a society that really doesn't accept it very gracefully.  And a causal event can be laying awake at night thinking to yourself, gee, that doesn't really make sense.

It would have been nice to be able to play an outspoken non-Andrastian character (not just in my head).  But I would prioritize it lower than things like more maps and a sensible story line.

For those who say "just RP whatever you like" I agree with that, but then I wish the game wouldn't have my character say things that contradict what I'm trying to RP.  Sometimes if you can't treat a subject well, you're better off avoiding it entirely.

Thing is, why wouldn't it make sense. Thedas isn't in the information age. It's population isn't generally well educated. Paradigm shifts are hard to achieve and do tend to need something more than just being up at night and thinking "this doesn't make sense."

That kind of thing can work today because we're bombarded with different information, but in a closed society where the information isn't really even existant... it isn't logical unless something HUGE happens.

[marshalleck]

Ariella wrote...

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

The death of Malcolm Hawke? The destruction of the King's army at Ostagar? The destruction of their home in Lothering? The death of a sibling? 

These are all dramatic, potentially life-altering events. All it takes is a little nudge in the right direction to get someone asking existential questions about their lives, to potentially shake any sort of faith. Hawke had and has plenty of catalysts.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 juin 2011 - 11:43 .

[Augustei]

I love it how questions in relation to game discussions bring out the people who insist on sharing their real life beliefs as if others give a damn =)

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 02 juin 2011 - 11:44 .

[John Epler]

Cut out the real-world religion talk, or this will get locked.

If you'd like to use some real world context to flesh out your arguments, great! Feel free.

If you'd like to take this opportunity to get on your soapbox and decry those who believe a particular way, then I suggest resisting the urge.

[Ariella]

Tirfan wrote...

Hawke IS an average person at the start of the game. That's the whole point of Dragon Age 2, which is why I've been saying what I've been saying. As of 9:31 Dragon Age, there's no impetus for Hawke not to believe and every impetus to do so. As of 9:41 Dragon Age, that may or may not be accurate based on the way the player plays Hawke during the game.

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

Seriously, for me to realize the faith I had been brought up in was complete and utter bulls*it all I needed was to read a few parts of the bible - while we don't know the exact contents of the chant of light, I wouldn't be surprised that it was filled with inconsistencies about the real world etc, much like the bible, and yes, this is a rather wild guess. The point is - you don't need certain kind of knowledge, a bit of logical thinking is all and a bit of critical thinking about the surrounding world. (okay, this may be why Hawke can't be an atheist in the game, s/he doesn't seem to think about anything s/he does very often.)

But you're talking as someone who lived a 20th/21st century life, which is not at all comperable to the life of a farmer in an age where the religious institution is the primary source of all knowledge and information, where the learned are mostly priests and templar et al. It's a different world, and not believing in the Maker in 9:31 DA would be see as irration, probably dangerous, and probably crazy as any rational person today looks at say the Westboro Baptist Church or the group that said that the world was coming to an end in May. Things like this take time and do change slowly under the kind of circumstance Thedas is in.

[marshalleck]

Ariella wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

Hawke IS an average person at the start of the game. That's the whole point of Dragon Age 2, which is why I've been saying what I've been saying. As of 9:31 Dragon Age, there's no impetus for Hawke not to believe and every impetus to do so. As of 9:41 Dragon Age, that may or may not be accurate based on the way the player plays Hawke during the game.

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

Seriously, for me to realize the faith I had been brought up in was complete and utter bulls*it all I needed was to read a few parts of the bible - while we don't know the exact contents of the chant of light, I wouldn't be surprised that it was filled with inconsistencies about the real world etc, much like the bible, and yes, this is a rather wild guess. The point is - you don't need certain kind of knowledge, a bit of logical thinking is all and a bit of critical thinking about the surrounding world. (okay, this may be why Hawke can't be an atheist in the game, s/he doesn't seem to think about anything s/he does very often.)

But you're talking as someone who lived a 20th/21st century life, which is not at all comperable to the life of a farmer in an age where the religious institution is the primary source of all knowledge and information, where the learned are mostly priests and templar et al. It's a different world, and not believing in the Maker in 9:31 DA would be see as irration, probably dangerous, and probably crazy as any rational person today looks at say the Westboro Baptist Church or the group that said that the world was coming to an end in May. Things like this take time and do change slowly under the kind of circumstance Thedas is in.

The Chantry's own dogma states the Maker has left the world behind and no longer takes an active interest in the events of Thedas. That alone kind of introduces the idea of negation. It's not a drastic leap of logic to say "the Maker is gone and no longer interested in Thedas; what if the Maker was never here at all?"

Even Chantry sisters don't believe the Maker has any agency in the world. They ridiculed Leliana for believing she was receiving divine inspiration and guidance through dreams.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 juin 2011 - 11:54 .

[Ariella]

marshalleck wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

The death of Malcolm Hawke? The destruction of the King's army at Ostagar? The destruction of their home in Lothering? The death of a sibling? 

These are all dramatic, potentially life-altering events. All it takes is a little nudge in the right direction to get someone asking existential questions about their lives, to potentially shake any sort of faith. Hawke had and has plenty of catalysts.

All the things you mention can also be tied back to belief in the Maker. Malcolm died of the Blight. King's army at Ostagar was a human failing, and the death of a sib again ties back to monsters that are tied directly into disobediance to the Maker. It does take a lot more than a little nudge. The mage/templar conflict in Kirkwall itself, considering it's a constant source of tention, has a better change to bring Hawke to reject the Maker than anything at the beginning.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

The death of Malcolm Hawke? The destruction of the King's army at Ostagar? The destruction of their home in Lothering? The death of a sibling? 

These are all dramatic, potentially life-altering events. All it takes is a little nudge in the right direction to get someone asking existential questions about their lives, to potentially shake any sort of faith. Hawke had and has plenty of catalysts.

All the things you mention can also be tied back to belief in the Maker.

All of the things can also be tied to Hawke being an atheist instead of an Andrastian. No one is saying that Hawke should be forced to be an atheist, but I think the choice should have been avaliable for those who didn't want their protagonist to be Andrastian.

Ariella wrote...

Malcolm died of the Blight.

Bethany's line seems to be a mistake since the Blight happens three years after Malcolm died.

Ariella wrote...

King's army at Ostagar was a human failing, and the death of a sib again ties back to monsters that are tied directly into disobediance to the Maker.

Lothering was destroyed, and Hawke's sibling is brutally slain. I can see where you'd argue that it's reason for an Andrastian Hawke to have a firm belief in the Maker, but I can also see where an atheist Hawke would see these events as supporting his or her conviction that there is no Maker.

Ariella wrote...

It does take a lot more than a little nudge. The mage/templar conflict in Kirkwall itself, considering it's a constant source of tention, has a better change to bring Hawke to reject the Maker than anything at the beginning.

Hawke's the child of an apostate; his life experiences alone on the run from the templars would be reason enough for him to be an atheist and reject Andrastian teachings.

[Abispa]

Although Hawke is not given the overt option to be an atheist, s/he is given several to criticize the Chantry. Perhaps more should have been given in dialogs with Sebastian, who is very pro-Chantry, but there was no Morrigan or Sten equivalent character to get a real argument going.

I'm not sure if Varric is Andrastian; Aveline is an implied agnostic, and both she and Merrill are aren't bothered by Andrastian beliefs enough to make a big issue out of them.

Another difference from the first game is that the party in DA2 are friends (save Anders) who've known each other for years with no overbearing threat like the blight. In the first game you had a pack of warriors thrown together to defeat invading monsters and they wouldn't have hung out together otherwise.

My friends who are believers rarely start arguments with me, but if I was thrown into a situation where I was forced to deal with a crisis with the aid of devout believers with opposing beliefs, there is more opportunity to argue.

[Ariella]

simfamSP wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Cut out the real-world religion talk, or this will get locked.

If you'd like to use some real world context to flesh out your arguments, great! Feel free.

If you'd like to take this opportunity to get on your soapbox and decry those who believe a particular way, then I suggest resisting the urge.

Arguing about any religion always leads to real-life debate. Where Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindu's battle it out in a virtual crusade of literate superiority. It's the one thing that is unavoidable in any discussion involving the words 'God' or 'Atheist.'

:innocent:

Hey, I'm not getting on any soapboxes about my religion personally, because there's no way in hell one could relate Judaism (as a religious institution and belief system) to anything going on in Thedas. Culturally, you could compare the city elves and the ghettos Eastern European Jews lived during the Middle Ages. But honestly I have yet to see a religion comperable to Judaism in Thedas.

I'm just saying that cultural and family norms have a profound effect on socialization, and Hawke being your average Fereldan, isn't going to be exposed to ideas and philosophies that would allow atheism to thrive as her belief.

[marshalleck]

I'm not sure that being the child of an apostate on the run, or an apostate in their own right constitutes "average Fereldan."

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 juin 2011 - 12:27 .

[Ariella]

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not sure that being the child of an apostate on the run, or an apostate in their own right constitutes "average Fereldan."

Average Fereldan, as in not the chosen one. No special powers, no avatar of some great organition, no claim to any secret knowledge. Average.