459 réponses à ce sujet

[Chiramu]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

She can be an atheist. Just don't pick any lines that imply otherwise.

The opacity of the dialogue system makes this difficult, however.

"Ignorance is bliss". 
If you do that you are just pretending because the battlecries suggest otherwise. I remeber one cry, "In the name of Andraste!"

Also another bad thing that we can't choose for our Hawke's, is the amount that he/she cares for their family. You can't play selfish pricks cause you love your family too much. 
I already played goodie-too-shoes on my first playthrough, and I wanted to be a selfish **** in my second one :<.

Hawke is a limited character IMO, you can't really do much with her/him in game as far as role playing goes. 

Modifié par Chiramu, 03 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[In Exile]

Bethany believes in the Maker, and so does Leandra. It's not unreasonable that the children were raised to be religious.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not sure that being the child of an apostate on the run, or an apostate in their own right constitutes "average Fereldan."

Average Fereldan, as in not the chosen one. No special powers, no avatar of some great organition, no claim to any secret knowledge. Average.

No one said Hawke was "the chosen one," since this isn't the Elder Scrolls, but he isn't the "average Ferelden" when he's the child and sibling of mages (and possibly an illegal mage as well). Even growing up with a mother who is Andrastian doesn't mean that Hawke would necessarily believe those ideals as well.

[Carrington666]

Chiramu wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

She can be an atheist. Just don't pick any lines that imply otherwise.

The opacity of the dialogue system makes this difficult, however.

"Ignorance is bliss". 
If you do that you are just pretending because the battlecries suggest otherwise. I remeber one cry, "In the name of Andraste!"

Even if you take the battlecries as declarations of faith and not just as simple sayings, is it really that surprising considering where you are and who you are in contact with?
I can only speak for my diplomatic Hawke (only one I have played at the moment), but she could believer herself to be the Biotic God herself. Still she would publicaly declare herself an Andrastian to keep otherwise suspicious Templar eyes away.
Living in Templar Central, at least keeping contact with a bloodmage and an abomination and publicaly denying the existence of the maker doesn't sound like a good idea. At least if you try to be as diplomatic as possible.

[Ariella]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not sure that being the child of an apostate on the run, or an apostate in their own right constitutes "average Fereldan."

Average Fereldan, as in not the chosen one. No special powers, no avatar of some great organition, no claim to any secret knowledge. Average.

No one said Hawke was "the chosen one," since this isn't the Elder Scrolls, but he isn't the "average Ferelden" when he's the child and sibling of mages (and possibly an illegal mage as well). Even growing up with a mother who is Andrastian doesn't mean that Hawke would necessarily believe those ideals as well.

You assume Malcom wasn't a believer. Yes, she's average, especially compared to say The Warden, and it's a much better than average chance that if her parents believed so would she. You seem to expect that any human mage who happens to be an apostate would automatically be atheist, which doesn't explain Anders, who is a devout Andrestrian even if he disagrees with the buracracy of the Chantry.

[Ariella]

Chiramu wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

She can be an atheist. Just don't pick any lines that imply otherwise.

The opacity of the dialogue system makes this difficult, however.

"Ignorance is bliss". 
If you do that you are just pretending because the battlecries suggest otherwise. I remeber one cry, "In the name of Andraste!"

Well if you want to see Andraste as the woman who managed to bring down the Tevinter Imperium ALA Joan De Arc, there doesn't have to be religious significance.

[Arrtis]

Lets just say hawke is only pretending to believe.

[AngryFrozenWater]

In DA3 I wish that the game has active options to support atheism. I've seen those in DA:O and it was rather easy to avoid the whole issue. I like that. The issue whether the maker existed or not was an open question. There weren't may exceptions there and sharing the maker's blessings felt funny rather than me being forced into a religion.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 03 juin 2011 - 03:35 .

[Chromie]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

In DA3 I wish that the game has active options to support atheism. I've seen those in DA:O and it was rather easy to avoid the whole issue. I like that. The issue whether the maker existed or not was an open question. There weren't may exceptions there and sharing the maker's blessings felt funny rather than me being forced into a religion.

If only Leliana didn't come back to life. She proves the maker is real atleast imo or bad writing. But lore wise she survived a killing blow that had her head chopped off.

If she had come back like Britney Spears in South Park I wouldn't have complain.

Modifié par Ringo12, 03 juin 2011 - 03:47 .

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one said Hawke was "the chosen one," since this isn't the Elder Scrolls, but he isn't the "average Ferelden" when he's the child and sibling of mages (and possibly an illegal mage as well). Even growing up with a mother who is Andrastian doesn't mean that Hawke would necessarily believe those ideals as well.

You assume Malcom wasn't a believer.

I think you misunderstood me. When I referenced that Hawke had an apostate as a father, it's because I was addressing that Hawke isn't an "average Ferelden."

Ariella wrote...

Yes, she's average, especially compared to say The Warden, and it's a much better than average chance that if her parents believed so would she.

I have to respectfully disagree here. Hawke may not be "the best of his generation" like The Warden was, but he isn't a "traditional Ferelden" by virtue of his apostate father and sister, as well as the family being on the run from the templars.

Ariella wrote...

You seem to expect that any human mage who happens to be an apostate would automatically be atheist, which doesn't explain Anders, who is a devout Andrestrian even if he disagrees with the buracracy of the Chantry.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm addressing that Hawke isn't a traditional Ferelden, and that there's reason for him to be an atheist, nothing more than that.

[In Exile]

Ringo12 wrote...
If only Leliana didn't come back to life. She proves the maker is real atleast imo or bad writing. But lore wise she survived a killing blow that had her head chopped off.

If she had come back like Britney Spears in South Park I wouldn't have complain.

She came back to life in the magical healing cave. The magical healing cave that may or may not have had magical healing dust spread all over it.

[Chromie]

In Exile wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...
If only Leliana didn't come back to life. She proves the maker is real atleast imo or bad writing. But lore wise she survived a killing blow that had her head chopped off.

If she had come back like Britney Spears in South Park I wouldn't have complain.

She came back to life in the magical healing cave. The magical healing cave that may or may not have had magical healing dust spread all over it.

Well bad writing. Which still proves my point. Andraste is the makers wife after all.

[Ariella]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one said Hawke was "the chosen one," since this isn't the Elder Scrolls, but he isn't the "average Ferelden" when he's the child and sibling of mages (and possibly an illegal mage as well). Even growing up with a mother who is Andrastian doesn't mean that Hawke would necessarily believe those ideals as well.

You assume Malcom wasn't a believer.

I think you misunderstood me. When I referenced that Hawke had an apostate as a father, it's because I was addressing that Hawke isn't an "average Ferelden."

Ariella wrote...

Yes, she's average, especially compared to say The Warden, and it's a much better than average chance that if her parents believed so would she.

I have to respectfully disagree here. Hawke may not be "the best of his generation" like The Warden was, but he isn't a "traditional Ferelden" by virtue of his apostate father and sister, as well as the family being on the run from the templars.

Ariella wrote...

You seem to expect that any human mage who happens to be an apostate would automatically be atheist, which doesn't explain Anders, who is a devout Andrestrian even if he disagrees with the buracracy of the Chantry.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm addressing that Hawke isn't a traditional Ferelden, and that there's reason for him to be an atheist, nothing more than that.

Your reasons don't make sense against cultural norms, especially when mother and sister believe. But the whole point of DA2 was that Hawke was ordinary with no huge destiny. no prophecy, no uber powers to lean on. She was just like everyone else in the army (playing as a warrior or rogue) and like every other refugee looking to get out of the way of the Blight. She may not have reverence for the Chantry, but that's a seperate issue from believing or not in the Maker.

Heck it could be worse, at least this isn't the Realms where they send atheists at their death to be devoured by the Wall of the Faithless . God, I hated that idea, one of the dumber concepts to come out of a Realms Shaking Plot in a while.

[GodWood]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke's battlecries have religious connotations, with the Champion of Kirkwall saying, "May Andraste guide you!" and "Send my regards to The Maker" so we really don't have a choice in the matter.

Didn't bother reading the rest of the thread but just in case you don't know already it's because you pick the upper dialogue option too much.

Pick the saracastic or aggressive options more and he'll have different battle cries.

[GodWood]

Ringo12 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...
If only Leliana didn't come back to life. She proves the maker is real atleast imo or bad writing. But lore wise she survived a killing blow that had her head chopped off.

She came back to life in the magical healing cave. The magical healing cave that may or may not have had magical healing dust spread all over it.

Well bad writing. Which still proves my point. Andraste is the makers wife after all.

Oghren suggests the mountains magicalness stems from a concentrated amount of lyrium from within, not divinity.

So the ambiguity is still there.

[Sad Dragon]

Ariella wrote...

Heck it could be worse, at least this isn't the Realms where they send atheists at their death to be devoured by the Wall of the Faithless . God, I hated that idea, one of the dumber concepts to come out of a Realms Shaking Plot in a while.

While I hate the idea of the wall and I whole heartadly agree with you on that topic, I have to say you are pretty stupid if you are an atheist in the Realms.

Back on topic: I have to say I didnt notice my Hawke was religious -- sure there where a few times that he ended up sounding like someone who had more then a little faith but that was mostly due to me selecting a specific line in the dialogue wheel, something that a quick load quickly solved.

As for the Thedas, well there are a few good reasons why even the none-believers would be questioning their stance, such as the holy ashes actually curing the Earl. That being said, the official stance by the ruling body for the church of the Maker is that the Maker doesn't care and I have a hard time beliving that any religion would surive to have followers if they took that stance. Sure you might have people who believe that the Maker exsitst or not, but worshiping him, given that he doesn't care makes little to no sense.
Add to this that Aveline, a soldier married to a Templare does not believe in the maker I would say that it isnt a given that anyone in Thedas believes in the Maker.

So bottem line i would say it that it should be a choice for the player -- and preferably not a black and white one. Though let me reitterate, I did not notice that my hawke was predetermined to be religious or not so I dont think this was a big problem in DA2 -- in fact i didnt find this a problem at all.

Typos are brought to you by:
-TSD

[kaiki01]

Sad Dragon wrote...
As for the Thedas, well there are a few good reasons why even the none-believers would be questioning their stance, such as the holy ashes actually curing the Earl. That being said, the official stance by the ruling body for the church of the Maker is that the Maker doesn't care and I have a hard time beliving that any religion would surive to have followers if they took that stance.

Typos are brought to you by:
-TSD

That point certaintly provides ammunition for why the Qun is spreading in Thedas...

[Wolfborn Son]

marshalleck wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

Hawke IS an average person at the start of the game. That's the whole point of Dragon Age 2, which is why I've been saying what I've been saying. As of 9:31 Dragon Age, there's no impetus for Hawke not to believe and every impetus to do so. As of 9:41 Dragon Age, that may or may not be accurate based on the way the player plays Hawke during the game.

Change doesn't come out of a clear blue sky. I've never met anyone who's just woken up one day and said "I believe this now." with no reason for the change. There's always a causal event for such a drastic change, especially in a society where such a thing wouldn't be tolerated or talked about. Hawke lacks even the potential for exposure to such explosive (in Thedas) ideas at the beginning of the game.

Seriously, for me to realize the faith I had been brought up in was complete and utter bulls*it all I needed was to read a few parts of the bible - while we don't know the exact contents of the chant of light, I wouldn't be surprised that it was filled with inconsistencies about the real world etc, much like the bible, and yes, this is a rather wild guess. The point is - you don't need certain kind of knowledge, a bit of logical thinking is all and a bit of critical thinking about the surrounding world. (okay, this may be why Hawke can't be an atheist in the game, s/he doesn't seem to think about anything s/he does very often.)

But you're talking as someone who lived a 20th/21st century life, which is not at all comperable to the life of a farmer in an age where the religious institution is the primary source of all knowledge and information, where the learned are mostly priests and templar et al. It's a different world, and not believing in the Maker in 9:31 DA would be see as irration, probably dangerous, and probably crazy as any rational person today looks at say the Westboro Baptist Church or the group that said that the world was coming to an end in May. Things like this take time and do change slowly under the kind of circumstance Thedas is in.

The Chantry's own dogma states the Maker has left the world behind and no longer takes an active interest in the events of Thedas. That alone kind of introduces the idea of negation. It's not a drastic leap of logic to say "the Maker is gone and no longer interested in Thedas; what if the Maker was never here at all?"

Even Chantry sisters don't believe the Maker has any agency in the world. They ridiculed Leliana for believing she was receiving divine inspiration and guidance through dreams.

Its quite a leap, at least using the mindset of someone who lives in a world that has many parralls to the Middle Ages.   Even Issac Newton, one of the fathers of modern physics, was highly religious and believed in God.  Many earlier thinkers, from Plato Thomas Aquaius, believed in higher powers.  Modern athiesm is just that... A modern concept that's out of place in a setting based on Midieval Earth.

[marshalleck]

Wolfborn Son wrote...
Its quite a leap, at least using the mindset of someone who lives in a world that has many parralls to the Middle Ages.   Even Issac Newton, one of the fathers of modern physics, was highly religious and believed in God.  Many earlier thinkers, from Plato Thomas Aquaius, believed in higher powers.  Modern athiesm is just that... A modern concept that's out of place in a setting based on Midieval Earth.

How exactly is it quite a leap? Demonstrate to me. If you accept that the Maker is gone *now*, it should not be hard to imagine the Maker having always been "gone." All you really said here was "nuh-uh!" Hawke doesn't need a set of rigorous, formalized philosophical arguments against the existence of a Maker. All he needs is a conceptual understanding of "not present, never present." Which is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 juin 2011 - 08:46 .

[kaiki01]

marshalleck wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...
Its quite a leap, at least using the mindset of someone who lives in a world that has many parralls to the Middle Ages.   Even Issac Newton, one of the fathers of modern physics, was highly religious and believed in God.  Many earlier thinkers, from Plato Thomas Aquaius, believed in higher powers.  Modern athiesm is just that... A modern concept that's out of place in a setting based on Midieval Earth.

How exactly is it quite a leap? Demonstrate to me. If you accept that the Maker is gone *now*, it should not be hard to imagine the Maker having always been "gone." All you really said here was "nuh-uh!"

How does "not here now" lead to "never was here"? That is a leap that one would have to jump. Especially when the setting has events/places that seem to back up the idea that the Maker did exist at one point.

1) Andraste's ashes
2) The Black City
3) The story of Andraste herself

[marshalleck]

Hawke knows nothing of Andraste's Ashes aside from whatever common folk wisdom there is
Hawke has never seen the Black City (as far as we know?) and if he has, how does it prove the existence of the Maker? Keep in mind, nobody ever actually *goes there* when they dream in the Fade; they only catch brief glimpses of it from the corner of their eye
How does the story of Andraste, a Tevinter slave who led a revolution, prove the existence of the Maker?

Also, I would think any adult human with an understanding of object permanence can understand the concepts of existence vs. non-existence

And again, this isn't about "Hawke should be an atheist because..." It's about "Hawke can be an atheist because..."

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 juin 2011 - 09:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

Your reasons don't make sense against cultural norms, especially when mother and sister believe.

I respectfully disagree. There are atheists who grow up in families where the other family members believe, it's an issue of what they personally perceive of the world. It's already established as part of the canon that a person can be an atheist, so I don't see why this choice was denied to the protagonist of DA2 when it wasn't denied to the protagonist of Origins.

Ariella wrote...

But the whole point of DA2 was that Hawke was ordinary with no huge destiny.

Hawke isn't an ordinary person, even if we put aside his background in an apostate family. If he was, Hawke wouldn't be sought out by important people through the three Acts of the storyline. Even Carver makes note of Hawke's abilities in terms of why his family survived.

Ariella wrote...

no prophecy, no uber powers to lean on. She was just like everyone else in the army (playing as a warrior or rogue) and like every other refugee looking to get out of the way of the Blight. She may not have reverence for the Chantry, but that's a seperate issue from believing or not in the Maker.

Even a warrior or a rogue Hawke can see the turmoil that the Andrastian faith has caused his family with the templars hunting them down for years, and the anquish that it stirs with Bethany as an illegal mage. These are reasons for Hawke not to believe in Andraste as a Prophet, the Maker, and the Chant.

Ariella wrote...

Heck it could be worse, at least this isn't the Realms where they send atheists at their death to be devoured by the Wall of the Faithless . God, I hated that idea, one of the dumber concepts to come out of a Realms Shaking Plot in a while.

I'm only noting the contrast between an option that was avaliable to players in Origins, and one that was denied to us in its sequel.

GodWood wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke's battlecries have religious connotations, with the Champion of Kirkwall saying, "May Andraste guide you!" and "Send my regards to The Maker" so we really don't have a choice in the matter.

Didn't bother reading the rest of the thread but just in case you don't know already it's because you pick the upper dialogue option too much.

Pick the saracastic or aggressive options more and he'll have different battle cries.

I've heard people make the same complaints even with an aggressive Hawke. I wager that it's only a sarcastic Hawke, then, who doesn't get religious battle cries?

[kaiki01]

marshalleck wrote...

Hawke knows nothing of Andraste's Ashes aside from whatever common folk wisdom there is
Hawke has never seen the Black City (as far as we know?) and if he has, how does it prove the existence of the Maker? Keep in mind, nobody ever actually *goes there* when they dream in the Fade; they only catch brief glimpses of it from the corner of their eye
How does the story of Andraste, a Tevinter slave who led a revolution, prove the existence of the Maker?

Also, I would think any adult human with an understanding of object permanence can understand the concepts of existence vs. non-existence

And again, this isn't about "Hawke should be an atheist because..." It's about "Hawke can be an atheist because..."

Did I say that they prove the exsistance of the Maker? No.

For the Black City, Hawke doesn't need to go there to know that other people(ie mages, like members of his family) can go to the Fade and see something that Thedas interpretes as the Black City.
For Andraste, so far in the DA games, it seems that a large amount of Thedas accepts it as the bride of the Maker peforming supernatural acts on her behalf. There is a reason there is a messianic religion built around her. The commonly accepted reason was that she was the bride of the Maker, rather then she was 1) a mage or 2) had blind luck.

You said "If you accept that the Maker is gone *now*, it should not be hard to imagine the Maker having always been "gone." I am saying that it is a leap for a person to make connection. As the chantry has the above "proof" that the Maker has exsisted in the world. Do you think it is reasonable for a person to come up with skepticism, logic or rhetoric their own to say "the chantry is making an ad ignoratiam argument." Come on.

Finally, my argument is not that "Hawke can't be an atheist" it is that your argument that it "How exactly is it quite a leap? Demonstrate to me. If you accept that
the Maker is gone *now*, it should not be hard to imagine the Maker
having always been "gone." is a leap.

I am perfectly willing for a Hawke to not believe in the Maker on the emotional basis of "I never meet the Maker, so he doesn't exsist for me." But, I do think it is silly for arguments where Hawke "can" be an athiest due to modern philosophies or techniques. Such as skepticism, logic, rhetoric, science method(outside of magic, which I'm unsure how usful that would be in finding knowledge about reality). Which, so far as it seems, do not exist in Thedas in any widespread or organized manner.

Modifié par kaiki01, 03 juin 2011 - 02:50 .

[Wolfborn Son]

marshalleck wrote...

Hawke knows nothing of Andraste's Ashes aside from whatever common folk wisdom there is
Hawke has never seen the Black City (as far as we know?) and if he has, how does it prove the existence of the Maker? Keep in mind, nobody ever actually *goes there* when they dream in the Fade; they only catch brief glimpses of it from the corner of their eye
How does the story of Andraste, a Tevinter slave who led a revolution, prove the existence of the Maker?

Also, I would think any adult human with an understanding of object permanence can understand the concepts of existence vs. non-existence

And again, this isn't about "Hawke should be an atheist because..." It's about "Hawke can be an atheist because..."

Again, you're apply modern thought to a setting where such thinking is mostly an alien concept.   Even the educated in the setting, such as the scholars and magi, believe in the Maker.  Just like the educated in our Middle Ages believed in God.  Yes, Hawke or any other character in the Dragon Age setting can be an athiest.  However, I'm arguing that its unrealistic given the setting and should be an exceptional circimstance.   You could argue that as a player, you should be offered such a chance, which you are in game if you pick certian choices.  However, I'll agrue that its not nessicarilly realistic.

Furthermore, if not being able to play an athiest affects your ability to roleplay your character, that says more about you than it does the game.  Between computer games and table top, I've played both religious and athiest characters, both noble and villianous.

[Ariella]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No one said Hawke was "the chosen one," since this isn't the Elder Scrolls, but he isn't the "average Ferelden" when he's the child and sibling of mages (and possibly an illegal mage as well). Even growing up with a mother who is Andrastian doesn't mean that Hawke would necessarily believe those ideals as well.[/quote]

You assume Malcom wasn't a believer. [/quote]

I think you misunderstood me. When I referenced that Hawke had an apostate as a father, it's because I was addressing that Hawke isn't an "average Ferelden."
[/quote]
Hawke is average in exposure to cultural norms and not being a chosen one/powerful being/avatar of a great organization. What about this is hard to understand. It's the basis of Dragon Age 2.

[quote]
[quote]Ariella wrote...

Yes, she's average, especially compared to say The Warden, and it's a much better than average chance that if her parents believed so would she. [/quote]

I have to respectfully disagree here. Hawke may not be "the best of his generation" like The Warden was, but he isn't a "traditional Ferelden" by virtue of his apostate father and sister, as well as the family being on the run from the templars.
[/quote]

Both Bethany and Leandra are believers. Bethany even comments on Leiliana and that she told the best stories when in the chantry. So the family did go to chantry, it probably would have been remarked if they didn't put in an appearance.


[quote]Ariella wrote...



You seem to expect that any human mage who happens to be an apostate would automatically be atheist, which doesn't explain Anders, who is a devout Andrestrian even if he disagrees with the buracracy of the Chantry. [/quote]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm addressing that Hawke isn't a traditional Ferelden, and that there's reason for him to be an atheist, nothing more than that.[/quote] That really isn't a reason in the context of being an apostate.