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[Satyricon331]

Skimming the thread, it seems like the arguments holding that Hawke can't be atheistic use probabilistic reasoning, citing cultural predispositions and population tendencies.  It should be fairly clear that such an argument on its own isn't sufficient as it's just logically invalid to draw a conclusive property in an instantation (in this case, to Hawke) from such premises.

The argument has another problem as well, imo.  Even if the argument were valid w/r/t a European instantiation, Thedas isn't a slavish recreation of Europe.  Given its differences, I think it'd be interesting to see more of how their philosophical ideas would diverge.  (Some of the blood-mage authored codex entries suggest something along these lines.)  The biggest reason to expect there to be some significant difference is that the dominant religion alienates a particular population, the mages, in a way Christianity never did to its own minorities.  Mages (even non-blood-mage ones) have some incentive to develop alternative viewpoints, and unlike in Europe, where there was Judaism, Thedas societies have no minority religion unless you count the Dalish one and the dragon cults (neither of which would even be something most humans would know much about), suggesting that simple Maker-denial would arise as the only an available alternative.

Also, given this point, it's instructive to note that there were explicitly atheistic Indian medieval philosophers, as well as some ancient Greek philosophers whose texts lend themselves to atheistic interpretations (although agnostic ones are possible as well).

~~~
All that stuff said, I think Carrington666's point that Diplomatic Hawke could be atheistic but is just being diplomatic when he mouths Andrastian phrases is really clever.  Also given the earlier point that the phrases might just be swears analogous to "oh my god" etc., I think it's perfectly possible to roleplay an atheist in DA2... making all of that stuff academic.  Which is my favorite kind of argument, since I'm a big ol' dork 

edit: struck out the garbage.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 03 juin 2011 - 07:48 .

[GavrielKay]

Without quoting a bunch of other posts... I just want to say that it does not take any special thought process or supporting framework in society to decide that you don't believe in any given religion. You can internally convert to a different one or swear it off all by yourself.

Hawke is raised by people who the dominant religion would happily have executed for being apostates/aiding and abeting apostates. It really isn't so much of a leap to think... gee, my dad is a pretty good guy, the religion that demonizes him must be wrong. Now, being smart (which we don't have a lot of evidence of, but oh well...) Hawke could well pretend while out in public.

I just don't agree that losing your faith is something that can't be done all by yourself, even in a world that doesn't support it.

[Ariella]

GavrielKay wrote...

Without quoting a bunch of other posts... I just want to say that it does not take any special thought process or supporting framework in society to decide that you don't believe in any given religion. You can internally convert to a different one or swear it off all by yourself.

Hawke is raised by people who the dominant religion would happily have executed for being apostates/aiding and abeting apostates. It really isn't so much of a leap to think... gee, my dad is a pretty good guy, the religion that demonizes him must be wrong. Now, being smart (which we don't have a lot of evidence of, but oh well...) Hawke could well pretend while out in public.

I just don't agree that losing your faith is something that can't be done all by yourself, even in a world that doesn't support it.

Losing faith and complete disbelief in a Supreme beingare two different things. And again you're talking from the point of view of someone living and has always lived in an open society where there's separation between secular and religious priorities. This is not the case in Thedas.

[Wereparrot]

Satyricon331 wrote...

 The biggest reason to expect there to be some significant difference is that the dominant religion alienates a particular population, the mages, in a way Christianity never did to its own minorities. 

I wouldn't say that. The mages have developed a form of Andrastianism that tolerates the existence of mages, and one that, given what various mages have to say, is closer to Andraste's teaching than the generally recieved chantry version.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think you misunderstood me. When I referenced that Hawke had an apostate as a father, it's because I was addressing that Hawke isn't an "average Ferelden."

Hawke is average in exposure to cultural norms and not being a chosen one/powerful being/avatar of a great organization. What about this is hard to understand. It's the basis of Dragon Age 2.

I don't agree that Hawke is "average." His family unit consists of two apostates, not to mention he's descended from the legendary mage Parthalan who helped found the nation of Ferelden and the nobility of the Amell line of Kirkwall. Hawke is growing up in an enviornment where at least his father and his sister are apostates, and he can be an apostate as well; Hawke is being raised in one of the Andrastian nations, where the Chantry of Andraste preaches against mages (as Bethany makes note time and again due to her status as a mage and an apostate because her own Andrastian views).

Given that Andrastians refer to mages as cursed (from the Magi Origin with Knight-Commander Greagoir and the Andrastian mage Keili to the apostate Bethany herself), I can see where Hawke could grow resentful over the faith that has driven templars to hunt down his family for years. Hawke is growing up with a father and a sister who are illegal mages, and he could be a mage as well, so why wouldn't this allow him to view the world differently than the "typical Ferelden"? Being on the run from the templars and not turning in his family members would indicate to me that he has the capacity to see the world differently than most Andrastians would.

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I have to respectfully disagree here. Hawke may not be "the best of his generation" like The Warden was, but he isn't a "traditional Ferelden" by virtue of his apostate father and sister, as well as the family being on the run from the templars.

Both Bethany and Leandra are believers. Bethany even comments on Leiliana and that she told the best stories when in the chantry. So the family did go to chantry, it probably would have been remarked if they didn't put in an appearance.

Leandra and Bethany aren't Hawke; I have no issue with the fact that Leandra and Bethany are Andrastians, but that doesn't mean Hawke has to believe in the Maker or in Andraste as a Prophet. He can make up his own mind about this issue.

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

You seem to expect that any human mage who happens to be an apostate would automatically be atheist, which doesn't explain Anders, who is a devout Andrestrian even if he disagrees with the buracracy of the Chantry.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm addressing that Hawke isn't a traditional Ferelden, and that there's reason for him to be an atheist, nothing more than that.

That really isn't a reason in the context of being an apostate.

There's plenty of reasons to choose from if he's an apostate, but that alone doesn't have to be the reason. If he has nothing but disdain for the Andrastian faith, and chooses not to believe in its teachings because he doesn't agree with them, that's reason enough for him to be an atheist instead of a faithful Andrastian.

[Satyricon331]

Wereparrot wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
 The biggest reason to expect there to be some significant difference is that the dominant religion alienates a particular population, the mages, in a way Christianity never did to its own minorities. 

I wouldn't say that. The mages have developed a form of Andrastianism that tolerates the existence of mages, and one that, given what various mages have to say, is closer to Andraste's teaching than the generally recieved chantry version.

That doesn't amount to an argument that their sets of philosphies wouldn't differ.  For instance, in the Forbidden Knowledge codex entry, the author directly says the Maker is a hoax.  The existence of mage-friendlier heterodoxy does not preclude still feeling alienated from the available theisms.  

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Without quoting a bunch of other posts... I just want to say that it does not take any special thought process or supporting framework in society to decide that you don't believe in any given religion. You can internally convert to a different one or swear it off all by yourself.

Hawke is raised by people who the dominant religion would happily have executed for being apostates/aiding and abeting apostates. It really isn't so much of a leap to think... gee, my dad is a pretty good guy, the religion that demonizes him must be wrong. Now, being smart (which we don't have a lot of evidence of, but oh well...) Hawke could well pretend while out in public.

I just don't agree that losing your faith is something that can't be done all by yourself, even in a world that doesn't support it.

Losing faith and complete disbelief in a Supreme beingare two different things.

Actually, I think GavrielKay made a really good point. If Hawke was raised to be Andrastian, felt it was wrong for the way the Andrastian Chantry spoke about mages like his father and his baby sister, and completely tossed aside its teachings and any regard for it being true because he felt it was wrong, then Hawke had lost faith and can see it as a fabrication for there to be a Maker or for Andraste to be a Prophet.

Ariella wrote...

And again you're talking from the point of view of someone living and has always lived in an open society where there's separation between secular and religious priorities. This is not the case in Thedas.

Hawke doesn't need to live in an open society to come to his own conclusions about the world and the Maker.

[Wereparrot]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
 The biggest reason to expect there to be some significant difference is that the dominant religion alienates a particular population, the mages, in a way Christianity never did to its own minorities. 

I wouldn't say that. The mages have developed a form of Andrastianism that tolerates the existence of mages, and one that, given what various mages have to say, is closer to Andraste's teaching than the generally recieved chantry version.

That doesn't amount to an argument that their sets of philosphies wouldn't differ.  For instance, in the Forbidden Knowledge codex entry, the author directly says the Maker is a hoax.  The existence of mage-friendlier heterodoxy does not preclude still feeling alienated from the available theisms.  

So? Chantry sponsored Andrastianism is only as alienating to mages as Catholicism was to Luther and other early dissenters from the Catholic church.

[Satyricon331]

Wereparrot wrote...
So? Chantry sponsored Andrastianism is only as alienating to mages as Catholicism was to Luther and other early dissenters from the Catholic church.

Huh?  It was because Luther felt an intense commitment to his religious beliefs that he sought to reform Christendom, and besides, it's quite implausible to say his experiences with Catholicism would be as alienating as a mage's experiences with the Chantry could be.  Furthermore, if your argument from Europe to Thedas were valid, the Forbidden Knowledge codex entry simply wouldn't exist. 

[GavrielKay]

Ariella wrote...
Losing faith and complete disbelief in a Supreme being are two different things.

That is true.  But it isn't too hard to get to one from the other.  Once you come to feel that the belief that your parents and friends and church tried to instill in you from practically birth isn't right, it is only a small step further to think none of them are right.  I honestly believe this happens more often than most people think.  For those who don't believe in the supernatural it is often easier to just keep quiet about it than be ridiculed or argued with by those who still do.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, I think GavrielKay made a really good point. If Hawke was raised to be Andrastian, felt it was wrong for the way the Andrastian Chantry spoke about mages like his father and his baby sister, and completely tossed aside its teachings and any regard for it being true because he felt it was wrong, then Hawke had lost faith and can see it as a fabrication for there to be a Maker or for Andraste to be a Prophet.

Having personal knowledge that contradicts the teachings of religion is a pretty quick path to abandoning it.  Hawke is in a very good position to know that mages aren't inherently evil and in desperate need of being locked away to ensure everyone's safety.  That sort of knowledge is an excellent starting point to break away.

Ariella wrote...
And again you're talking from the point of view of someone living and has always lived in an open society where there's separation between secular and religious priorities. This is not the case in Thedas.

Almost everyone still grows up in families with faith, in countries where faith dominates.  And still a growing portion of people realize they not believe in the supernatural.  It really just isn't that much of a stretch that someone in Hawke's position would be a non-believer.

[GavrielKay]

Satyricon331 wrote...
Huh?  It was because Luther felt an intense commitment to his religious beliefs that he sought to reform Christendom, and besides, it's quite implausible to say his experiences with Catholicism would be as alienating as a mage's experiences with the Chantry could be.  Furthermore, if your argument from Europe to Thedas were valid, the Forbidden Knowledge codex entry simply wouldn't exist. 

I agree.  Luther is a really bad example of anyone alienated from the Catholic church to the extent that mages are by Andrastianism.  There probably are examples that I'm too lazy to dig up of people who were similarly persecuted, but not Luther. 

And in any case, didn't Luther eventually break away and spawn his own form of Christianity?  Not a great case for the mages or Hawke remaining Andrastians.

[Wereparrot]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
So? Chantry sponsored Andrastianism is only as alienating to mages as Catholicism was to Luther and other early dissenters from the Catholic church.

Huh?  It was because Luther felt an intense commitment to his religious beliefs that he sought to reform Christendom, and besides, it's quite implausible to say his experiences with Catholicism would be as alienating as a mage's experiences with the Chantry could be. Furthermore, if your argument from Europe to Thedas were valid, the Forbidden Knowledge codex entry simply wouldn't exist. 

And why wouldn't a mage be commited to their religious beliefs but, like Luther, not be satisfied with the prevailing interpretation? It's quite plausible, because as the Templars went to war against the mages (albeit without the Chantry's blessing), so Catholicism went to war with Protestantism.

Why does your codex entry have anything to do with what we are discussing?

[Wereparrot]

GavrielKay wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
Huh?  It was because Luther felt an intense commitment to his religious beliefs that he sought to reform Christendom, and besides, it's quite implausible to say his experiences with Catholicism would be as alienating as a mage's experiences with the Chantry could be.  Furthermore, if your argument from Europe to Thedas were valid, the Forbidden Knowledge codex entry simply wouldn't exist. 

I agree.  Luther is a really bad example of anyone alienated from the Catholic church to the extent that mages are by Andrastianism.  There probably are examples that I'm too lazy to dig up of people who were similarly persecuted, but not Luther. 

And in any case, didn't Luther eventually break away and spawn his own form of Christianity?  Not a great case for the mages or Hawke remaining Andrastians.

There are other examples: Calvin, for instance, but the Protestant breakaway started with Luther, so I gave him as my example.

And yes, Luther spawned his own denomination.

[GavrielKay]

Wereparrot wrote...
There are other examples: Calvin, for instance, but the Protestant breakaway started with Luther, so I gave him as my example.

I guess I just don't see how what Calvin or Luther went through is the same as what the mages do.  The Catholic church didn't turn on them because of how they were born but because they were (in the church's opinion anyway) undermining their authority.  It's a bit different to be hated for being born different than for having the courage to stand up for a belief that you've arrived at.

[Satyricon331]

Wereparrot wrote...
And why wouldn't a mage be commited to their religious beliefs but, like Luther, not be satisfied with the prevailing interpretation? It's quite plausible, because as the Templars went to war against the mages (albeit without the Chantry's blessing), so Catholicism went to war with Protestantism.

Why does your codex entry have anything to do with what we are discussing?

A mage?  The best you can logically argue is that, over the run of mages, those who find the Orlesian Chantry wanting would tend not to question its central tenant, as Luther merely illustrates, to the extent he's even analogous*.  The existence of mages who do exactly that - deny the Maker's existence, as the codex entry shows - vindicates the point I raised earlier: probabilistic argument does not show Hawke can't be an atheist, or in the case of our disagreement, have reason to philosophize differently than Europeans did.  (Of course, the validity issue stands regardless of the existence of particular examples.)  It's irrelevant to an existence argument that the majority of people who find themselves in these circumstances would break a certain way.

*The analogy is weak at best since he rejected a particular institutionalization of Christendom, not Christendom itself, from which he obviously did not feel alienation.  Andrastianism is the relevent analogue to the atheism issue, not the Orlesian Chantry in particular.  Thus the rejection of Andrastianism by some mages shows he is not instructive.  

[Satyricon331]

GavrielKay wrote...
I guess I just don't see how what Calvin or Luther went through is the same as what the mages do.  The Catholic church didn't turn on them because of how they were born but because they were (in the church's opinion anyway) undermining their authority.  It's a bit different to be hated for being born different than for having the courage to stand up for a belief that you've arrived at.

Yes, exactly.

[Wereparrot]

GavrielKay wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
There are other examples: Calvin, for instance, but the Protestant breakaway started with Luther, so I gave him as my example.

I guess I just don't see how what Calvin or Luther went through is the same as what the mages do.  The Catholic church didn't turn on them because of how they were born but because they were (in the church's opinion anyway) undermining their authority.  It's a bit different to be hated for being born different than for having the courage to stand up for a belief that you've arrived at.

Maybe, but it's the best real world example for the point I'm trying to make, which is that as Luther broke away from the Catholic denomination whilst still holding to the mother religion, so mages who actually believe in the Maker become, in effect, the Thedas equivelant of Protestants.

[Wereparrot]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
And why wouldn't a mage be commited to their religious beliefs but, like Luther, not be satisfied with the prevailing interpretation? It's quite plausible, because as the Templars went to war against the mages (albeit without the Chantry's blessing), so Catholicism went to war with Protestantism.

Why does your codex entry have anything to do with what we are discussing?

  The existence of mages who do exactly that - deny the Maker's existence,

So all mages by default should deny the Maker's existence? Bethany, Anders and any number of other mages are freaks of nature then?

[GavrielKay]

Wereparrot wrote...
Maybe, but it's the best real world example for the point I'm trying to make, which is that as Luther broke away from the Catholic denomination whilst still holding to the mother religion, so mages who actually believe in the Maker become, in effect, the Thedas equivelant of Protestants.

Even so, how does an unknown number of mages interpreting the same basic doctrine in a fashion more friendly to themselves preclude other mages from abandoning it entirely?  Or anyone else abandoning it entirely.

I find it very hard to believe that through the ages no matter the thoroughness with which religions promote their beliefs among the populace - that there was ever a time when EVERY single person really believed.  The harsher the consequences for non-believers, the more secret they are is all.

[LobselVith8]

Based on what's happening in Ferelden with King Alistair and the mages, and his background as a "former templar" (even if it's not technically accurate because he never took his vows, many - including Leliana of the Lothering Chantry - saw him as such), there could be a split with the Andrastian Chantry, especially if tensions arise between Orlais (where the Andrastian Chantry is located) and Ferelden.

[Satyricon331]

Wereparrot wrote...
So all mages by default should deny the Maker's existence? Bethany, Anders and any number of other mages are freaks of nature then?

What?  Of course not.  Simply because some could and do doesn't mean all or even most do.

[Wereparrot]

GavrielKay wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
Maybe, but it's the best real world example for the point I'm trying to make, which is that as Luther broke away from the Catholic denomination whilst still holding to the mother religion, so mages who actually believe in the Maker become, in effect, the Thedas equivelant of Protestants.

Even so, how does an unknown number of mages interpreting the same basic doctrine in a fashion more friendly to themselves preclude other mages from abandoning it entirely?  Or anyone else abandoning it entirely.

It doesn't, and I never said it does. I just answered a point that Andrastianism alienates mages so much so that they abandon it. I'm pointing out that it's not a universal scenario, and trying to illustrate it.

[Satyricon331]

GavrielKay wrote...
Even so, how does an unknown number of mages interpreting the same basic doctrine in a fashion more friendly to themselves preclude other mages from abandoning it entirely?  Or anyone else abandoning it entirely.

I find it very hard to believe that through the ages no matter the thoroughness with which religions promote their beliefs among the populace - that there was ever a time when EVERY single person really believed.  The harsher the consequences for non-believers, the more secret they are is all.

Dare I thank the Maker for you?  

[GavrielKay]

Wereparrot wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
And why wouldn't a mage be commited to their religious beliefs but, like Luther, not be satisfied with the prevailing interpretation? It's quite plausible, because as the Templars went to war against the mages (albeit without the Chantry's blessing), so Catholicism went to war with Protestantism.

Why does your codex entry have anything to do with what we are discussing?

  The existence of mages who do exactly that - deny the Maker's existence,

So all mages by default should deny the Maker's existence? Bethany, Anders and any number of other mages are freaks of nature then?

I believe the idea behind pointing out the codex entry was to refute the argument that in the culture of the game world, it would be all but impossible to be an actual atheist vs. just interpreting the doctrine slightly more in your favor.  Pointing out at least one actual atheist (who likely had followers) opens the door to others arriving at the same conclusion on their own, despite the culture.

[GavrielKay]

Satyricon331 wrote...
Dare I thank the Maker for you?  

Heh.