459 réponses à ce sujet

[Satyricon331]

Wereparrot wrote...
II just answered a point that Andrastianism alienates mages so much so that they abandon it.

I have to disagree that that interpretation of the passage of mine that you first quoted is a fair one.  A religion alienating a population in a way != every individual, or even most individuals, feeling sufficient alienation they reject the religion wholesale.

[Ariella]

GavrielKay wrote...

Almost everyone still grows up in families with faith, in countries where faith dominates.  And still a growing portion of people realize they not believe in the supernatural.  It really just isn't that much of a stretch that someone in Hawke's position would be a non-believer.

Actually that's untrue. Faith doesn't dominate countries like it did in the middle ages, so yes it is a stretch that a middle age type culture where Faith has a true domination that there's be large groups of non-believers.

[Ariella]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
II just answered a point that Andrastianism alienates mages so much so that they abandon it.

I have to disagree that that interpretation of the passage of mine that you first quoted is a fair one.  A religion alienating a population in a way != every individual, or even most individuals, feeling sufficient alienation they reject the religion wholesale.

Anders was pretty alienated from the Chantry yet he didn't give up belief in either Andraste or the Maker, in fact, it seemed to make him more devout,

[Elhanan]

Since this one has gone on for a bit, I would offer that one actually using religious slang may be more likely to be a non-believer, as the one that does believe in a higher authority; does not want to offend, wishes to strive for divine acceptance, and wants to take the target off holy retribution. Just saying....

[Satyricon331]

Ariella wrote...
Anders was pretty alienated from the Chantry yet he didn't give up belief in either Andraste or the Maker, in fact, it seemed to make him more devout,

I don't see what point you're trying to make?  That example doesn't impede my argument.

[Satyricon331]

Ariella wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Almost everyone still grows up in families with faith, in countries where faith dominates.  And still a growing portion of people realize they not believe in the supernatural.  It really just isn't that much of a stretch that someone in Hawke's position would be a non-believer.

Actually that's untrue. Faith doesn't dominate countries like it did in the middle ages, so yes it is a stretch that a middle age type culture where Faith has a true domination that there's be large groups of non-believers.

How would a Hawke's being a non-believer necessitate there being large groups of non-believers?

[In Exile]

Satyricon331 wrote...
How would a Hawke's being a non-believer necessitate there being large groups of non-believers?

It would require Hawke to be a significant outlier. And that's an issue, with a semi-defined background.

[marshalleck]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Furthermore, if not being able to play an athiest affects your ability to roleplay your character, that says more about you than it does the game.  Between computer games and table top, I've played both religious and athiest characters, both noble and villianous.

That's just ridiculous. I've been playing CRPG and PNP RPGs for almost 20 years; I'm quite comfortable with playing a character that isn't a mirror image of myself. I do however firmly believe that an atheistic perspective is perfectly reasonable in the Dragon Age setting. If you liken that to thinking I want to roleplay Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens, well, that's simply not the case at all. 

[Satyricon331]

In Exile wrote...
It would require Hawke to be a significant outlier. And that's an issue, with a semi-defined background.

That reply is not an argument of "necessit[y]," however.  Besides, what issue would it present?  The game offers its semi-definition, and you roleplay the other elements to your liking.  If Bioware intended to exclude all atypicality in the roleplaying options, it would have required significantly more definition.

[ozenglish]

Actually, I think the best reference for mages in this case and a real world views with religion, would be being born a woman, in those religious areas of the world where they do disgusting things to them because that is how they are born... I think then you would be hitting closer to the truth. And in some cases the woman retains her belief, while another does not. This showing that sometimes, not matter how bad something is done to someone, even in the name of the religion they practice, they still think it is right and is protecting their society from them.

EDIT: I am proud of how I kept myself from pointing fingers in this post. That was a hard thing to do. 

Modifié par ozenglish, 04 juin 2011 - 03:38 .

[In Exile]

Satyricon331 wrote...
That reply is not an argument of "necessit[y]," however.  Besides, what issue would it present?  The game offers its semi-definition, and you roleplay the other elements to your liking.  If Bioware intended to exclude all atypicality in the roleplaying options, it would have required significantly more definition.

The problem comes from the family. Bethany and Leandra are Andrastians. An open atheist in that environment is not exactly a coherent fit. That was the problem I had with atheist Cousland too.

[Satyricon331]

In Exile wrote...
The problem comes from the family. Bethany and Leandra are Andrastians. An open atheist in that environment is not exactly a coherent fit. That was the problem I had with atheist Cousland too.

But coherence is not likelihood?  If Hawke were a random variable that we redrew many times, it might be unusual, even rare, to have an atheist Hawke, but it's not incoherent.

[Ariella]

[quote]Satyricon331 wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...
Anders was pretty alienated from the Chantry yet he didn't give up belief in either Andraste or the Maker, in fact, it seemed to make him more devout,[/quote]

I don't see what point you're trying to make?  That example doesn't impede my argument.
[/quote

Your original quote (the one In replied too) spoke of the Chantry alienating mages thus they'd want to reject the Maker. Anders is a case in point where there's Alienation from certain Charey practices, yet he's stilll devoutly believes. So it does impede your argument.

[Ariella]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Almost everyone still grows up in families with faith, in countries where faith dominates.  And still a growing portion of people realize they not believe in the supernatural.  It really just isn't that much of a stretch that someone in Hawke's position would be a non-believer.

Actually that's untrue. Faith doesn't dominate countries like it did in the middle ages, so yes it is a stretch that a middle age type culture where Faith has a true domination that there's be large groups of non-believers.

How would a Hawke's being a non-believer necessitate there being large groups of non-believers?

Hawke's not exactly a scholar or a learned person. In that she's average. With the acception of the apostate thing, she's probably had an average upbringing with religion being part of her education. Unless one either has access to information or there's large groups of people which accept such a philophy, without exposure Hawke probably wouldn't not turn out to be an atheist in as if 9:31

[Ariella]

ozenglish wrote...

Actually, I think the best reference for mages in this case and a real world views with religion, would be being born a woman, in those religious areas of the world where they do disgusting things to them because that is how they are born... I think then you would be hitting closer to the truth. And in some cases the woman retains her belief, while another does not. This showing that sometimes, not matter how bad something is done to someone, even in the name of the religion they practice, they still think it is right and is protecting their society from them.

EDIT: I am proud of how I kept myself from pointing fingers in this post. That was a hard thing to do. 

Exactly, it's the difference between closed and open societies. Thedas' human society right now is pretty much closed with the Chantry having a lock on information.

[Satyricon331]

Ariella wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Anders was pretty alienated from the Chantry yet he didn't give up belief in either Andraste or the Maker, in fact, it seemed to make him more devout,

I don't see what point you're trying to make?  That example doesn't impede my argument.

Your original quote (the one In replied too) spoke of the Chantry alienating mages thus they'd want to reject the Maker. Anders is a case in point where there's Alienation from certain Charey practices, yet he's stilll devoutly believes. So it does impede your argument.

I disagree.  I had said they had incentive to develop alternative philosophies.  They do.  It doesn't follow that they'll all pursue such philosophies, or that "they'd want to reject the Maker."  Probably, some will.  Probably, most won't.

Ariella wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
How would a Hawke's being a non-believer necessitate there being large groups of non-believers?

Hawke's not exactly a scholar or a learned person. In that she's average. With the acception of the apostate thing, she's probably had an average upbringing with religion being part of her education. Unless one either has access to information or there's large groups of people which accept such a philophy, without exposure Hawke probably wouldn't not turn out to be an atheist in as if 9:31

I'm sorry, but your argument is logically invalid.  You're simply arguing it's "probably" the case Hawke isn't ahteist, but it doesn't follow Hawke can't be an atheist for that reason.  If we were taking a risk assessment, or if Hawke were a random variable, the probabilities would be relevant, but instead this aspect of Hawke is a roleplaying selection.  There is no reason Hawke can't be an atheist.

Ariella wrote...

ozenglish wrote...
Actually, I think the best reference for mages in this case and a real world views with religion, would be being born a woman, in those religious areas of the world where they do disgusting things to them because that is how they are born... I think then you would be hitting closer to the truth. And in some cases the woman retains her belief, while another does not. This showing that sometimes, not matter how bad something is done to someone, even in the name of the religion they practice, they still think it is right and is protecting their society from them.

EDIT: I am proud of how I kept myself from pointing fingers in this post. That was a hard thing to do. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/alien.png[/smilie]

Exactly, it's the difference between closed and open societies. Thedas' human society right now is pretty much closed with the Chantry having a lock on information.

I can't speak to his intention, but his example cuts my way.  "In some cases the woman retains her belief, while another does not," is exactly the point I'm arguing for.  It isn't impossible for someone to reject their faith in such a circumstance.  By saying Hawke can't be an atheist, you're saying it can't go both ways, so in the woman analogy, you'd be saying in all cases, such women retains their belief.

[ParnAkuma]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Skimming the thread, it seems like the arguments holding that Hawke can't be atheistic use probabilistic reasoning, citing cultural predispositions and population tendencies.  It should be fairly clear that such an argument on its own isn't sufficient as it's just logically invalid to draw a conclusive property in an instantation (in this case, to Hawke) from such premises.

The argument has another problem as well, imo.  Even if the argument were valid w/r/t a European instantiation, Thedas isn't a slavish recreation of Europe.  Given its differences, I think it'd be interesting to see more of how their philosophical ideas would diverge.  (Some of the blood-mage authored codex entries suggest something along these lines.)  The biggest reason to expect there to be some significant difference is that the dominant religion alienates a particular population, the mages, in a way Christianity never did to its own minorities.  Mages (even non-blood-mage ones) have some incentive to develop alternative viewpoints, and unlike in Europe, where there was Judaism, Thedas societies have no minority religion unless you count the Dalish one and the dragon cults (neither of which would even be something most humans would know much about), suggesting that simple Maker-denial would arise as the only an available alternative.

An intriguing analysis; I'll have to think about that.

I rather suspect the visible existence and accessibility of the Fade and "spirits" or "demons" plays a role in differentiating the history and development of religion on Thedas from the history and development of our own, as well as adding an additional wrinkle to reaching a "Maker-denial" conclusion.

[Alexander1136]

Aesieru wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I was personally annoyed that they didn't have an analog for Mayan religions. I wanted my Hawke to rip out hearts and offer them to the sun god. As a person with Mayan heritage I feel slighted, Mayan gods were worshipped for many, many years. Its not a new concept.

Oh well, I suppose its just one belief amongst many.

So... jokes aside?

^ he jests but speaks the truth. you cant expect every point of view available in every game. Hawke is from lothering his parents were religous as are his/her sister and brother. if you dont want to say something religous then don't, just cuz you cant be a dick atheist in the game and ruin christmas is hardly a gripe or a reason for discussion.<_<

[LobselVith8]

Alexander1136 wrote...

^ he jests but speaks the truth. you cant expect every point of view available in every game. Hawke is from lothering his parents were religous as are his/her sister and brother. if you dont want to say something religous then don't, just cuz you cant be a dick atheist in the game and ruin christmas is hardly a gripe or a reason for discussion.<_< 

Considering The Warden could address himself as being atheist in Origins, I don't see why this option was denied for Hawke, and I don't understand why you seem to be offended at the thought of wanting an option to be an 'atheist' when the sequel's prececessor provided such an option for the protagonist.

[IanPolaris]

Ariella wrote...

Hawke's not exactly a scholar or a learned person. In that she's average. With the acception of the apostate thing, she's probably had an average upbringing with religion being part of her education. Unless one either has access to information or there's large groups of people which accept such a philophy, without exposure Hawke probably wouldn't not turn out to be an atheist in as if 9:31

I don't think that's right.  I think that on the outside the Hawke family may have seemed to be commers but that was more camouflage and the need to move frequently than anything else.  Leandra was a high noble from Kirkwall with the education that goes with it, and Hawke was a high ranking Circle mage (which also implies years of scholarship) and had an inherently inquistive and learned personality (as confirmed by Larius in Legacy).  Carver talks all the time about the training and lessons that Malcome would give his two mage children.

Given all that (esp if you are an Apostate Hawke), I'd say your education is at least as good as your average nobleman's and probably a bit better especially when dealing with the arcane.  [Something that Varric alludes to as well is Hawke's inherent knowledge of the arcane even if a non-mage himself]

-Polaris

[Alexander1136]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Alexander1136 wrote...

^ he jests but speaks the truth. you cant expect every point of view available in every game. Hawke is from lothering his parents were religous as are his/her sister and brother. if you dont want to say something religous then don't, just cuz you cant be a dick atheist in the game and ruin christmas is hardly a gripe or a reason for discussion.<_< 

Considering The Warden could address himself as being atheist in Origins, I don't see why this option was denied for Hawke, and I don't understand why you seem to be offended at the thought of wanting an option to be an 'atheist' when the sequel's prececessor provided such an option for the protagonist.

im not offended. Origins and DA2 are different games if your making the observation that the warden had a lot more role play room than hawke you should get in line.  i was just stating that Hawkes character is kind of defined already and this small little detail is just a small part of a larger problem. For instance when you turn in the sack of human remains to emeric you can be sympathetic in three different tones you cant be indifferent or glad that the cheating wife got cut up. ... also i like christmas:happy:

Modifié par Alexander1136, 20 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[Alexander1136]

]Ariella wrote...

Hawke's not exactly a scholar or a learned person. In that she's average. With the acception of the apostate thing, she's probably had an average upbringing with religion being part of her education. Unless one either has access to information or there's large groups of people which accept such a philophy, without exposure Hawke probably wouldn't not turn out to be an atheist in as if 9:31



Since when does education and religous point of view go hand in hand? If you follow physics at all you'd know there are  some good arguments for both sides of that point. And as someone else mentioned hawkes mother was a noble and his father was a highly intelligent mage.

Modifié par Alexander1136, 20 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why can't Hawke be an atheist?

Because your hawke, and all our Hawkes are biowares character and not ours.. unlike our wardens =(

[Pwnsaur]

I have read no post other than the OP, but I agree. It's very annoying that in every BioWare game we must be shoe-horned into believing in some cultish ideology. I hate religion, in any form, and always cringe when I am forced into this role.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think "Give the Maker my regards" is really "religious" as such; it's for an aggressive Hawke and sounds to me more along the lines of "Go to Hell." On the other hand, "may Andraste guide you" sounds more explicit on the matter. I don't mind it that much, though; perhaps someone in charge of the flavor text slipped up some.