459 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

So.. just because you can't acknowledge something game-mechanics why, you can't RP it? Where's your imaginations?

Honestly, I never thought about my Hawke's religious leanings (except for ones that I played as strictly Chantry-lovers). It doesn't have an impact on the story, nobody else is going to say "Hey Hawke, what did you think of that sermon today" and have a discussion with me on it, does it honestly matter whether I am canonly atheist or not?

Just like IRL, my Hawke doesn't really have a religious stance, if some view that as atheism, cool, if some want to call me agnostic, whatever. Um, what does it matter.

If I could RP a religion/philosophy of my choosing, I would follow the Qun, but that's not an option in the game so I guess it would be forbidden for me to think outside the box and do that in my head (which is the only place such a stance would ever matter).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 05:09 .

[DiebytheSword]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I want my Hawke to worship Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf and, in honor of his god, play both factions against each other in an awesome "A Fistful of Dollars" type ploy.

I prefer the original it was based on, Akira Kurosawa's film Yojimbo.

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's battlecries have religious connotations, with the Champion of Kirkwall saying, "May Andraste guide you!" and "Send my regards to The Maker" so we really don't have a choice in the matter.

Not that much of a stretch to assume that's something like "save me a seat in hell".

In addition to the confirmation of his Andrastian beliefs in his discussion with Merrill and Sebastian, isn't that simply ignoring what the creators did in making Hawke Andrastian, regardless of how we wanted to handle the protagonist's views?

How would you handle recording Hawke's lines for every concievable philosophical view point?  You can't.  Yes they did make Hawke Andrastian, but I don't see how they could have pleased every possible philosophical view.  That was the point of my joke and my rebuttal.  You seem to want a seperate dialogue tree and combat speech for your particular viewpoint, which I don't think can happen without causing a world religion simulator.

Incedentally, I think this is why so many people can't stomach the Templars and the Chantry.  Its not about mage freedom, its projecting a very real prejudice into the game that people have from real life concerning the Templar's and the Chantry's real world analogs.  Some very real venom is spit when there is obvious need to consider both sides of the issue.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In addition to the confirmation of his Andrastian beliefs in his discussion with Merrill and Sebastian, isn't that simply ignoring what the creators did in making Hawke Andrastian, regardless of how we wanted to handle the protagonist's views?

I don't remember ever being forced to confirm Andrastian beliefs with either of them? Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

Regardless, Hawke is the PC. You can make up all the stuff you want for him. We'd only be arguing about "defined" PCs if this were Mass Effect and Bioware were threatening to put the gay in.

Personally, I don't really think there's much of a reason why Hawke wouldn't be an Andrastian given the culture and world he was raised in, but if you really want to play it that way, you can. Maybe you can RP him "losing his faith", whatever.

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juin 2011 - 05:13 .

[Leonia]

It's funny, people will complain about the lack of RP options but they make up these self-imposed rules to restrict their ablity to RP. Who is more at fault, the game, or the players?

(That was rheutorical.)

[mesmerizedish]

leonia42 wrote...

It's funny, people will complain about the lack of RP options but they make up these self-imposed rules to restrict their ablity to RP. Who is more at fault, the game, or the players?

(That was rheutorical.)

The "self-imposed rules" being "I can't play it unless the game forces it down my throat!"

Good grief, people.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, you can still be an atheist and use expressions like "god <expletive deleted> <second expletive deleted>". I don't think the battle cries necessarily mean that Hawke is an Andrastian.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 juin 2011 - 06:48 .

[DiebytheSword]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Well, you can still be an atheist and use expression like "god <expletive deleted> <second expletive deleted>". I don't think the battle cries necessarily mean that Hawke is an Andrastian.

That is an excellent point, Adrastian or not, Hawke lives in an area who's culture is dominated by the Chantry.

When Hawke jokes with Varric about the Ogre, "Maker that's big!"  I don't think for a moment that Hawke is reaching for religious clarity on why something that freaking big exists.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 01 juin 2011 - 05:27 .

[LobselVith8]

ipgd wrote...

I don't remember ever being forced to confirm Andrastian beliefs with either of them? Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

Regardless, Hawke is the PC. You can make up all the stuff you want for him. We'd only be arguing about "defined" PCs if this were Mass Effect and Bioware were threatening to put the gay in.

Personally, I don't really think there's much of a reason why Hawke wouldn't be an Andrastian given the culture and world he was raised in, but if you really want to play it that way, you can. Maybe you can RP him "losing his faith", whatever.

Couldn't it be for the same reason Aveline doesn't believe in the Chant?

leonia42 wrote...

It's funny, people will complain about the lack of RP options but they make up these self-imposed rules to restrict their ablity to RP. Who is more at fault, the game, or the players?

(That was rheutorical.)

You're stating to use one's imagination to ignore what's explicitly stated in the game. I get the same response when I bring up how Hawke reactive is throughout the storyline - some tell me to ignore what the writers did, and fan fic something different. I don't understand the point in ignoring what's canon; I'm addressing a problem that I see with what was done with the story instead of simply ignoring it.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[Leonia]

I don't think Hawke has a canon religion so why restrict yourself?

[LobselVith8]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The "self-imposed rules" being "I can't play it unless the game forces it down my throat!"

Good grief, people.

I'm talking about having options avaliable. Choices.

leonia42 wrote...

I don't think Hawke has a canon religion so why restrict yourself?

If the writers made it clear that Hawke is Andrastian based on his dialogue in combat and with the companions, you're saying that I should ignore it and imagine something else. If I was writing fan fiction, I could see the point, but I'm not. I'm addressing the general question of why Hawke can't be an atheist within the context of the game provided to us, without actually ignoring what was written by the creators and what Hawke explicitly states.

[AngryFrozenWater]

leonia42 wrote...

I don't think Hawke has a canon religion so why restrict yourself?

On the other hand... It depends on how you look at it. DA:O allowed me to be an atheist. It had alternate options to support it. In DA2 that freedom was removed.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 juin 2011 - 05:36 .

[Leonia]

The writers haven't made it clear that Hawke is an Andrastian.

[kglaser]

Am I the only one who didn't even notice Hawke's religious affiliation or lack thereof? Or am I just a clueless sod?

[Leonia]

kglaser wrote...

Am I the only one who didn't even notice Hawke's religious affiliation or lack thereof? Or am I just a clueless sod?

Right there with you kg.

For what it's worth, I'm an atheist IRL and I say "god" a lot, mostly because I have grown up in a culture that is predominantly Christian and I hear the word a lot. It doesn't mean anything to me the way it means something to others. I don't see Hawke's battlecries as being any different (and note, sarcastic Hawke doesn't even have ones that refer to the Maker).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 05:42 .

[kglaser]

I'm Christian and I didn't notice one way or the other. I don't pay attention to that in the video games I play. /shrug

[Aesieru]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Ahem...

"God" is a name, hence the capitalization, in only one case is it capitalized and only when referring to Old-testament God and New-testament God, which are of course, one and the same, but without the forgiveness because of the 'plan.'

The use of "god"; however, is merely the use of any random deity...

"God" isn't a name. God is a word we use to avoid saying His name, which is YHWH.

It is not used to "avoid" it.

Yahweh is... more than that.

Modifié par Aesieru, 01 juin 2011 - 05:58 .

[Heroinman]

atheists make up about 2.3% of the worth's population and only 1.6% in the U.S., seems to me this isn't a group big enough to be worth a bunch of extra programming time ...

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

also the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems relevant here...

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the writers made it clear that Hawke is Andrastian based on his dialogue in combat and with the companions, you're saying that I should ignore it and imagine something else. If I was writing fan fiction, I could see the point, but I'm not. I'm addressing the general question of why Hawke can't be an atheist within the context of the game provided to us, without actually ignoring what was written by the creators and what Hawke explicitly states.

But none of those things conclusively point towards Hawke being unambiguously Andrastian. Again, I use expressions like Hawke does all of the time and I could be the leader of Richard Dawkins's fanclub.

All it means is that Hawke grew up in a predominantly Andrastian culture in an Andrastian family, which is also true of the human noble, and presumably the city elf and mages as well.

How many religiously-raised atheists do you know who had the cognizance to decide "this doesn't make any sense" at age five or whenever their parents start shoving the Jeebus into their heads? You'll believe whatever you're told when you're raised. You don't stop believing it until you're much older, for many people possibly in their 20s or 30s or later, and even then you don't escape the lifetime of cultural conditioning. "Disillusioned Andrastian steadily losing fate following the Blight" isn't an excluded RP option, if you must take Hawke's battle cries on face value.

Heroinman wrote...

atheists make up about 2.3% of the worth's population and only 1.6% in the U.S., seems to me this isn't a group big enough to be worth a bunch of extra programming time ...

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

also the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems relevant here...

There are plenty of atheists in foxholes. Don't pretend you even know what a foxhole looks like.

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juin 2011 - 06:10 .

[Leonia]

Heroinman wrote...

atheists make up about 2.3% of the worth's population and only 1.6% in the U.S., seems to me this isn't a group big enough to be worth a bunch of extra programming time ...

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

also the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems relevant here...

How is that relevant to this thread? Regardless if someone is an atheist IRL, in a fantasy game, where not everyone is of one religion, it should go without saying that "atheism" would exist (whether it is a minority or not in that world would be up for debate but it's not a huge stretch to imagine that Hawke may be one of them).

The statistics IRL state that homosexuaity is a minority group yet Hawke can be homosexual in-game (oooh did I just open that can of worms, why yes..) if he/she so chooses.

[kglaser]

Religious-themed thread = closed by page 5, I'd estimate.

[Ryzaki]

kglaser wrote...

Religious-themed thread = closed by page 5, I'd estimate.

 

That's pretty generous. 

I'm pretty much counting on page 4. 

[Heroinman]

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the writers made it clear that Hawke is Andrastian based on his dialogue in combat and with the companions, you're saying that I should ignore it and imagine something else. If I was writing fan fiction, I could see the point, but I'm not. I'm addressing the general question of why Hawke can't be an atheist within the context of the game provided to us, without actually ignoring what was written by the creators and what Hawke explicitly states.

But none of those things conclusively point towards Hawke being unambiguously Andrastian. Again, I use expressions like Hawke does all of the time and I could be the leader of Richard Dawkins's fanclub.

All it means is that Hawke grew up in a predominantly Andrastian culture in an Andrastian family, which is also true of the human noble, and presumably the city elf and mages as well.

How many religiously-raised atheists do you know who had the cognizance to decide "this doesn't make any sense" at age five or whenever their parents start shoving the Jeebus into their heads? You'll believe whatever you're told when you're raised. You don't stop believing it until you're much older, for many people possibly in their 20s or 30s or later, and even then you don't escape the lifetime of cultural conditioning. "Disillusioned Andrastian steadily losing fate following the Blight" isn't an excluded RP option, if you must take Hawke's battle cries on face value.

Heroinman wrote...

atheists make up about 2.3% of the
worth's population and only 1.6% in the U.S., seems to me this isn't a
group big enough to be worth a bunch of extra programming time ...

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

also the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems relevant here...

There are plenty of atheists in foxholes. Don't pretend you even know what a foxhole looks like.

wow angsty much?

I didn't just pulled that out of my bum it is a common expression based in the fact that in combat situations many people find religion, and Hawke is fighting throughout the whole game.  Obviously there are exceptions in real life, like I said it's a common figure of speech not a universalizable statement about all people who have ever been in a foxhole...jeez

[Heroinman]

leonia42 wrote...

Heroinman wrote...

atheists make up about 2.3% of the worth's population and only 1.6% in the U.S., seems to me this isn't a group big enough to be worth a bunch of extra programming time ...

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

also the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems relevant here...

How is that relevant to this thread? Regardless if someone is an atheist IRL, in a fantasy game, where not everyone is of one religion, it should go without saying that "atheism" would exist (whether it is a minority or not in that world would be up for debate but it's not a huge stretch to imagine that Hawke may be one of them).

The statistics IRL state that homosexuaity is a minority group yet Hawke can be homosexual in-game (oooh did I just open that can of worms, why yes..) if he/she so chooses.

The reason for that was because people were saying that the in game world is designed to reflect our real world, my point was that if it does then something that is such a small percentage of our real world population wouldn't translate into the in game world due to the limits of programming.

[mesmerizedish]

Aesieru wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

"God" isn't a name. God is a word we use to avoid saying His name, which is YHWH.

It is not used to "avoid" it.

Yahweh is... more than that.

It is absolutely used to avoid it, because speaking the name of God is very bad. Ears, like... bleed and stuff.

Trust me, goy. My nose is bigger.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 01 juin 2011 - 06:21 .