459 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Heroinman wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Heroinman wrote...

atheists make up about 2.3% of the worth's population and only 1.6% in the U.S., seems to me this isn't a group big enough to be worth a bunch of extra programming time ...

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

also the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" seems relevant here...

How is that relevant to this thread? Regardless if someone is an atheist IRL, in a fantasy game, where not everyone is of one religion, it should go without saying that "atheism" would exist (whether it is a minority or not in that world would be up for debate but it's not a huge stretch to imagine that Hawke may be one of them).

The statistics IRL state that homosexuaity is a minority group yet Hawke can be homosexual in-game (oooh did I just open that can of worms, why yes..) if he/she so chooses.

The reason for that was because people were saying that the in game world is designed to reflect our real world, my point was that if it does then something that is such a small percentage of our real world population wouldn't translate into the in game world due to the limits of programming.

Unless Word of God states it's a direct reflection of the real world, then I don't much care what generic "people" think it is. You're thinking about this way too technically anyway. Do you honestly think mentioning "Maker" in a few battlecries makes one a full-blown Andrastian? That's really the question here, not "how prevelant is atheism in Thedas?"

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 06:27 .

[ipgd]

You can also say this to Elthina, which is atheisty enough for me:


but SHRUUUUUGGG

[Heroinman]

I disagree, the OP was asking about why can't Hawke be an atheist and I think my answer pertains to that. There are limits to programming and creating an atheist train of dialouge didn't make the cut.

I still agree with what you're saying though because I personally don't think religion has ever been a huge part of the games(for the warden or Hawkes personal development), and I basically ignored it throughout. Also I agree with whoever was saying that in the kind of world that Hawke is in the things he is yelling would be cultural more so than religious.

[Heroinman]

ipgd wrote...

You can also say this to Elthina, which is atheisty enough for me:


but SHRUUUUUGGG

^-Checkmate and discussion closed?

[DiebytheSword]

I think we should keep the discussion going by focusing on the topic at hand not real world issues. I don't think any of us will be swayed to an opinion on philosophy or religion by debate with someone over the internet.

There are ways to get Hawke to show a religious side. Dialogue choices, especially when dealing with Grand Cleric Elethina, can show quite a pious or doubtful side. I don't see how exclaiming something including the maker's name neccesarily imbues Hawke with faith.

For example:

Bartrand uses Andraste's name and it doesn't make him any less observant of his dwarven paragons.

[Wolfborn Son]

Do atheists say "go rot in the ground, because there is no afterlife, especially no fiery pit that serves as a punishment to sinners"? Or do they just say "go to hell"? I imagine Hawke's battle cries are pretty much the same.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

kglaser wrote...

Religious-themed thread = closed by page 5, I'd estimate.

 

That's pretty generous. 

I'm pretty much counting on page 4. 

Addressing that I have no control over Hawke's religious beliefs is pretty on-topic for Dragon Age 2, since it's one of many aspects where the player has no control over the protagonist in what's supposed to be an RPG. I don't see what's wrong with it, and I'm not certain why either of you posted when neither of you are contributing to the discussion of the protagonist.

[MDT1]

First it wouldn't fit into the conversation wheel.
Second it would require additional dialog which is against DA2's philosophy of cutting corners.

[Cutlass Jack]

You have control over his beliefs. He/she believes whatever you want them to believe. But his parents were Andrastian, so he would have been raised as such. Doesn't imply belief, just upbringing. Not terribly different from playing the Cousland or Bride backgrounds that were raised similarly.

For example, I was raised Catholic. I know my religion, know all the right things to do in church, etc. But in practice I'm pretty bad at being one. Doesn't mean I don't know a few religious oaths I can't exclaim for fun. But I've even heard people of vastly different faiths exclaim JC's name on occasion. (Not Denton, the other one.)

I can't recall offhand any instance where Hawke was forced to say he was a believer. But I might be forgetting something that you're thinking of.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 01 juin 2011 - 02:19 .

[Ulous]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I noticed that in Origins, the player could control whether The Warden was religious or not. However, we lack the same control over the protagonist of Dragon Age 2 to determine whether Hawke is Andrastian or not. Hawke's battlecries are supposed to be Andrastian, he says lines of dialogue that make it clear he's Andrastian, and the player has no control over this. It doesn't make any sense to me that this would be the case when Origins provided us with control over the protagonist's religious convictions, or lackthereof. Atheism is a concept that's been around for many centuries, and it's been noted historically all over the world. Thedas is supposed to reflect some aspects of our society, like the comparisons between England and Ferelden, for instance, but it seems this degree of control is gone for the protagonist. I don't understand why this is the case. Why are we denied the right to determine Hawke's religious convictions in an RPG where we're supposed to "create" the character? Why do we have no choice in the matter?

I think as others have hinted maybe Hawke is pretending to be religeous? Or maybe it is in his/her best interests to at least act this way.

In real life I detest religion, but that does not stop me from going to church for a funeral, yes when the priest is spouting his/her biblical nonsense I could speak out and say "what a load of ****e", but then that isn't in mine or anyone elses best interest at the time, in the same way it would not be wise for Hawke to act like he/she dislikes religion in such a pious place as Kirkwall. :innocent:


------------------

Modifié par Ulous, 01 juin 2011 - 02:20 .

[Ottemis]

Marco V- Godd

[Leonia]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addressing that I have no control over Hawke's religious beliefs is pretty on-topic for Dragon Age 2, since it's one of many aspects where the player has no control over the protagonist in what's supposed to be an RPG. I don't see what's wrong with it, and I'm not certain why either of you posted when neither of you are contributing to the discussion of the protagonist.

How many RPGs have you played where you were able to control your character religious beliefs by in-game dialogue/choices? Really, even in the Origins example, you don't always get a choice. A Dalish Warden can't ever say they are an Andrastian, a dwarf can't ever say they are Andrastian, a human noble can't say they worship the paragons or the elven parthenon and none of them get an option to say "I'm an atheist!".

Any sense of religious leaning that you perceive your character to have is mostly in your head unless there is an explicit dialogue option that you've chosen that addresses it. And even then, one line of dialogue doesn't mean you're a full-blown anything. Even accepting Elthina's blessing doesn't make you Andrastian. The Dalish Warden could accept a blessing from the Chantry sister in Ostagar (and no, he/she doesn't get the option to say "I'm an atheist" or "I'm really Andrastian too!")

I fail to see where this religious choice was truly available to all Wardens and why it's a staple feature of all RPGs.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 02:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

In general, and this is something Origins also suffered from (though I think to a slightly lesser degree), Hawke doesn't get to express his / her beliefs that much because no one cares.

So yea, having more reciprocal dialogues would help a great deal.

[LobselVith8]

leonia42 wrote...

How many RPGs have you played where you were able to control your character religious beliefs by in-game dialogue/choices? Really, even in the Origins example, you don't always get a choice. A Dalish Warden can't ever say they are an Andrastian, a dwarf can't ever say they are Andrastian, a human noble can't say they worship the paragons or the elven parthenon and none of them get an option to say "I'm an atheist!".

Any sense of religious leaning that you perceive your character to have is mostly in your head unless there is an explicit dialogue option that you've chosen that addresses it. And even then, one line of dialogue doesn't mean you're a full-blown anything. Even accepting Elthina's blessing doesn't make you Andrastian. The Dalish Warden could accept a blessing from the Chantry sister in Ostagar (and no, he/she doesn't get the option to say "I'm an atheist" or "I'm really Andrastian too!")

I fail to see where this religious choice was truly available to all Wardens and why it's a staple feature of all RPGs.

How many RPG elements does DA2 actually have, given how choice doesn't actually matter and even the two endings are virtually identical to one another? In Origins, you could determine whether you believed in the Maker or not. In DA2, you get some scenes where the protagonist talks about the Maker and Andraste as a firm believer, particularly with Merrill and Sebastian (and these are dialogue choices where it isn't even immediately clear that such dialogue will be spoken). Are you trying to say it could be better, and that more choices could be given than Origins provided? That's awesome, because I agree - we should have gotten more important choices in the story that actually had an impact on the world around us. Personally, I'd have also loved to actually gotten an apostate POV as an apostate Hawke, instead of getting more of an apostate POV as a warrior or a rogue Hawke because of Bethany. However, I'm simply addressing in this thread that there's more than one instance where Hawke makes it clear he's Andrastian given specific dialogue options that aren't even indicative that Hawke will even say any such thing.

[Leonia]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In
general, and this is something Origins also suffered from (though I
think to a slightly lesser degree), Hawke doesn't get to express his /
her beliefs that much because no one cares.

So yea, having more reciprocal dialogues would help a great deal.

I think Brother Burkel cared if my Aeducan was in favor of the Chantry, or remaining loyal to the Paragon belief system.

But regardless if you supported the Brother, your Aeducan would have still worshipped the Paragons like any other dwarf (there's no option to "convert").

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[Leonia]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How many RPG elements does DA2 actually have, given how choice doesn't actually matter and even the two endings are virtually identical to one another? In Origins, you could determine whether you believed in the Maker or not. In DA2, you get some scenes where the protagonist talks about the Maker and Andraste as a firm believer, particularly with Merrill and Sebastian (and these are dialogue choices where it isn't even immediately clear that such dialogue will be spoken). Are you trying to say it could be better, and that more choices could be given than Origins provided? That's awesome, because I agree - we should have gotten more important choices in the story that actually had an impact on the world around us. Personally, I'd have also loved to actually gotten an apostate POV as an apostate Hawke, instead of getting more of an apostate POV as a warrior or a rogue Hawke because of Bethany. However, I'm simply addressing in this thread that there's more than one instance where Hawke makes it clear he's Andrastian given specific dialogue options that aren't even indicative that Hawke will even say any such thing.

I was unaware that we were discussing ALL possible RPG choices in DA2, thought we were just talking about religious-related ones (of which there really aren't any in either DA2 or Origins, you can say a few lines here or there about whether you acknowledge the Maker or not but you can't change your character's predetermined religious views unless you are RPing such changes in your head). It seems like the topic of this thread keeps changing.

That example of where Hawke chooses to "make it clear" he/she is Andrastian is just an option. It doesn't mean he can't be an atheist. There's not an option that states Hawke likes cheese, does that mean he hates cheese?

[KnightofPhoenix]

leonia42 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In
general, and this is something Origins also suffered from (though I
think to a slightly lesser degree), Hawke doesn't get to express his /
her beliefs that much because no one cares.

So yea, having more reciprocal dialogues would help a great deal.

I think Brother Burkel cared if my Aeducan was in favor of the Chantry, or remaining loyal to the Paragon belief system.

But regardless if you supported the Brother, your Aeducan would have still worshipped the Paragons like any other dwarf (there's no option to "convert").

Couldn't a dwarf say they believe in the Maker in Ostagar?
Which wouldn't be realistic, as they've been on the surface for a few days.

Really, something as complex and deep as belief can't be handle in one or two convos with random NPCs no one cares about.

In TW1 for example, the theme of Geralt believing in "Destiny" or not (or something in between) was explored throughout the entre game from Act 1 till the end, with important characters like King of the Wild Hunt, Lady of the Lake, Triss and Alvin (and some others IIRC).

That's how you handle belief.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2011 - 02:52 .

[Leonia]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Yeah, I know. But my Aeducan belivied in the Paragons, so there was no need for that option for my RP'ing of the PC. However, I feel it should've been there for RP'ing purposes.

It would be a hard thing to RP a dwarf from a long-living house rooted in tradition as anything BUT a Paragon-worshipper. But more power to you.

The option isn't there in Origins, and that's the point I was making. People seem to think Origins had more choices than DA2 but it really didn't. This whole "define every iota of your character's existance via options presented by the game" thing is getting a bit silly. What about my cheese preference? My favourite colour? My lifestyle choices? My hobbies?

When did religious choice become such a big deal for these kind of games. Why is it so hard to assume Hawke can be an atheist. Or maybe he's Andrastian. Or maybe he worships cows. But if the game doesn't give you the option to say so, suddenly it's impossible to RP this way? I'd love to see how some of you folks do in PnP RPGs where your imagination makes up the majority of the experience.

@KoP: Good point, one or two lines is not going to "define" a person's beliefs. I can barely explain my religious beliefs in the tiny box that Facebook gives me for such an endeavour (I went with Lawful Neutral in the end).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 02:56 .

[Lumikki]

Eh, I did not have any problems not been believer.

PS: Origin did have more choises what did matter, but not much, just some. How ever, often it doesn't need many choises to make the difference how player feels it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[JamieCOTC]

I seem to recall having a fairly agnostic Lady Hawke mage on my first playthrough. Later she did ask for the Grand Cleric's blessings. I suppose she was hedging her bets just in case.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alistairlover94 wrote...
Yeah, but Geralt was a fixed character, with an established personality from Andrzej Sapkowski's novels. I don't think David Gaider could have so many different beliefs for six entirely different characters.

3 of the 6 Origins are generally Andrastrian or of Andrastrian upbringing. 2 are of Dwarven upbringing and one of Dalish. 

I don't think it was impossible to integrate belief a little bit more, with companions for instance asking us (and something more than "What do you believe in? Oh I see" /end convo). Not on the same scale as The Witcher 1 of course for the reasons you listed.

I don't recall if that was the case, but the Ashes quest could have the PC express his / her beliefs more.