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[ipgd]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

We're not talking about altering the beliefs of the majority of people. Just altering the beliefs of Hawke who is supposed to be our PC and customizable to a certain extent.

So yes I think Hawke's religion (or lack thereof) should be ours to decide. 

Of course it should. However, she sometimes utters Andrastian phrases like "Dear Maker!" That should be up to me to decide. In other words, I wanted complete player agency. And yes, I feel the same way about the dialouge wheel. I'd rather have the list back.

As has been gone over several times, use of figures of speech such as "dear Maker" are not indication of faith. I am a militant atheist and "dear God" is a common phrase in my vocabulary, as has been attested by several other atheists in the thread. Language use is more cultural than anything (and Hawke did grow up in an Andrastian culture).

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The real limitation imo is that Hawke can't be a real believer in the Chantry, that would make him a big hypocrit. He is either an apostate (and remains as such) or the sibling of an apostate that tolerates her being an apostate (and he has nothing to do with her going to the Circle). He tolerates Anders and even ends up providing him with immunity, whether he wants it or not.

If hypocritical people were barred from having strong religious faith there wouldn't be terribly many religious people left :innocent: Is there a reason why playing a hypocritical Hawke isn't a viable RP option?

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
Is there a reason why playing a hypocritical Hawke isn't a viable RP option?

Is there a reason why you think I implied otherwise in my post?

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The real limitation imo is that Hawke can't be a real believer in the Chantry, that would make him a big hypocrit. He is either an apostate (and remains as such) or the sibling of an apostate that tolerates her being an apostate (and he has nothing to do with her going to the Circle). He tolerates Anders and even ends up providing him with immunity, whether he wants it or not.

So eh, I don't think you can control Hawke in regards to either extreme side of the spectrum.  If anything, Hawke could be an atheist, but you'd have a harder time making him a devout Chantry follower. 

With the Warden, you had more flexibility and can decide to kick Morrigan out (or turn her in to Templars in Terra mod), think Leliana is crazy from a religious perspective. Tell Sten his Qun sucks...etc.

 

It's especially bad with my warrior when Beth died in the deep roads. :/ He can't stand Anders or Merrill yet can't tell Merrill to stay away from him or turn either of them into the templars. And it's not like anders/Merrill save his life so he has alife debt to him. (Eventually I started making Beth a warden so he has a "life for a life." excuse with Anders).  

Warden was fun insulting everyone's beliefs. Especially as an elf with that chantry priestess in Ostagar. 

The vids you wanted: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3  

Alistairlover94 wrote...
Of course it should. However, she sometimes utters Andrastian phrases like "Dear Maker!" That should be up to me to decide. In other words, I wanted complete player agency. And yes, I feel the same way about the dialouge wheel. I'd rather have the list back.

 

It really should. The whole "Met your maker." with my aggresive warrior Hawke fits because I made him pro-chantry. On my aggressive mages though its weird. :/ 

And yes I'm aware some people say "Jesus Christ." and the like. I took the habit of saying "For Ra's sake." instead. I would like to be able to tweak that as well. He Warden didn't bring up the maker/creators just because of origin. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
She lived outside of society, so I don't think she's a good representation. Avernus on the otherhand I assume lived in the Circle and then with Wardens. He's more integrated than Morrigan.

 

True. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2011 - 05:49 .

[Ariella]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

Okay, why would Hawke be atheist? I agree with Gaider in it doesn't make sense for the setting. People really didn't start doubting the existence of God until the late 1800s/early half of the 1900s in real life history, and much of that doubt was caused by the introduction of evolution/relativity/and psychiatry to the world giving a shade of grey to what was once black and white to people. [/quote]

Because atheism has existed for centuries, including long before medieval England (which seems to be what Ferelden is based on). It's not like it would be a new concept to have the protagonist say they aren't religious - Nevarine could say he believed in the gods, or that he was a self-made hero, for instance.
[/quote]

There's a different between being non-religious and atheism as a societal norm. Atheism prior to the time period I was referring to was used as a charge like herasy. Christians were once condemned to death in the Roman Empire as atheists. Atheist was an insult up until the 1700s. But it wasn't until the late 1800s, early 1900s that atheism became soceitial accaptable and a positive concept. We're talking about societal norms. It would take an extrodinary individual who was raised outside of those norms (Morrigan) to be able to pull it off in a reasonable manner.

And since ES has a completely different history that DA, bringing ES:M up is kinda silly.

[quote]Ariella wrote...

Then World War 1 came and really screwed things up because evil stopped looking like evil. It was hard to tell who was right and who was wrong since both sides did terrible things, and most of the time those things were perpetrated by people who looked like (and were)
bureaucrats. And the aftermath of WW1 was enough to shake anyone's faith. [/quote]

Atheism predates the medieval period that Ferelden is loosely based on.
[/quote]

Atheism as an accusation and insult may have but not as an accepted way of thinking or a philopsophical movement.

[quote]



[quote]Ariella wrote...

Things like this haven't happened yet in the Thedas timeline. [/quote]

Morrigan clearly says she doesn't believe in the Maker, and Aveline says she doesn't believe in the Chant. 
[/quote]

Morrigan I covered above, and Aveline saying she doesn't believe in the Chant doesn't make her an atheist. She seems to believe in the Maker without having need of a lot of doctrine. That's not Atheism.

[quote]


[quote]Ariella wrote...

If anything, we're on the very verge of a true meltdown in the Chantry, but even that would not be enough to shake societal norms which tend to believe in the Maker and Andraste. For that to happen, there's going to need to be a disproof of at least one of the legends surrounding the Maker. I think the most likely is finding out where the Darkspawn really came from. [/quote]

There's no reason Hawke couldn't be an atheist in this time period, regardless of the Chantry's status.[/quote]

If Hawke was raised in a believing home, which seems to be the case, why would Hawke be an atheist? Hawke is an average individual, and unless exposed to the idea that such a thing is possible, Hawke would have no reason to doubt otherwise. The GAME provides no reason to doubt the Maker. The Chantry as it's run, yes, but there's no viable reason for society to start doubting the Maker... yet.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Is there a reason why playing a hypocritical Hawke isn't a viable RP option?

Is there a reason why you think I implied otherwise in my post?

"Hawke can't be a real believer in the Chantry"? Hypocrisy is like, religion's thing. I'm sure even if Hawke were able to turn in his apostate buddies, there would be a slew of unseen scriptural mandates like "don't eat cheese on Sunday" that he would be hedonistically violating.

[Leonia]

Real-life arguments getting in the way of my imaginary fun.

Thedas is NOT a mirror image of the real world, it is based loosely on some of the same ideas but you can't use real world history to explain Thedas.

Lots of atheists are born and raised by "believers". Why is that such a strange idea?

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 05:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Is there a reason why playing a hypocritical Hawke isn't a viable RP option?

Is there a reason why you think I implied otherwise in my post?

"Hawke can't be a real believer in the Chantry"?

Which is true. He can be a hypocrit, but not a real consistent believer.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

It really should. The whole "Met your maker." with my aggresive warrior Hawke fits because I made him pro-chantry. On my aggressive mages though its weird. :/ 

If that line is "Meet your Maker." then it'd seem to suit an atheist just fine. It can be read along the lines of mocking "where's your god now?"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
The vids you wanted: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3  

Yay thanks! :happy:

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
If that line is "Meet your Maker." then it'd seem to suit an atheist just fine. It can be read along the lines of mocking "where's your god now?"

 

Ah good point.  

And typos are the devil. 

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is true. He can be a hypocrit, but not a real consistent believer.

By that metric, I don't think I've ever met a "real consistent believer". Hypocrisy does not preclude strong faith in the areas that don't personally affect him, though, which is pretty much standard fare for all religion.

[ipgd]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

It really should. The whole "Met your maker." with my aggresive warrior Hawke fits because I made him pro-chantry. On my aggressive mages though its weird. :/ 

If that line is "Meet your Maker." then it'd seem to suit an atheist just fine. It can be read along the lines of mocking "where's your god now?"

IIRC, it's something like "send my regards to The Maker".

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is true. He can be a hypocrit, but not a real consistent believer.

By that metric, I don't think I've ever met a "real consistent believer".

I did.

Hypocrisy does not preclude strong faith in the areas that don't personally affect him, though, which is pretty much standard fare for all religion.

We are not talking about a small practise, we are talking about a major issue. That of mages. Hawke cannot be a real consistent believer in the Chantry without applying its dogma vis-a-vis mages or accepting it (he does neither). He can be an Andrastrian with liberal views, but not a Chantry loyalist.

EDIT: Or he might be able to express that by Act 3 after Leandra's death? I dont' recall.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2011 - 06:06 .

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

IIRC, it's something like "send my regards to The Maker".

 

That's it? 

Bleh. 

I knew I got my wires crossed. 

It's "Send the maker my regards." actually now that I recall. 

Let me fight for a while with my aggressive Hawke to get some more. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2011 - 06:00 .

[Leonia]

Are we really trying to rationalise Hawke's religious leanings based on what he says while killing people?

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 06:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The vids you wanted: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3  

Yay thanks! :happy:

That was good.
Pity that the choice was not refined and explored like it should have.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

There's a different between being non-religious and atheism as a societal norm.

People have questioned the existance of the gods and God for centuries in our own history, it's nothing new. Atheism has been around for many centuries, including before the medieval time period of England that Ferelden is very loosely based on.

Ariella wrote...

Atheism prior to the time period I was referring to was used as a charge like herasy. Christians were once condemned to death in the Roman Empire as atheists. Atheist was an insult up until the 1700s.

And scholars have questioned the existance of a higher power for many centuries. We see atheists in Thedas, as others have noted; I don't see why you seem to be disputing this.

Ariella wrote...

But it wasn't until the late 1800s, early 1900s that atheism became soceitial accaptable and a positive concept.

Atheists have existed long before the late 1800s and were known publically as atheists, and even some cultures didn't adhere to worship of deities. However, this does not pertain to the discussion at hand about atheism in Thedas.

Ariella wrote...

And since ES has a completely different history that DA, bringing ES:M up is kinda silly.

Bringing up that it's nothing new for protagonists not to be religious isn't silly.

Ariella wrote...

Atheism as an accusation and insult may have but not as an accepted way of thinking or a philopsophical movement.

This is historically incorrect since you're addressing certain parts of the world where this isn't universally true and making it seem that it's universally true, and this has no place in a discussion about the fictional world of Thedas, where atheists exist.

Ariella wrote...

Morrigan I covered above, and Aveline saying she doesn't believe in the Chant doesn't make her an atheist. She seems to believe in the Maker without having need of a lot of doctrine. That's not Atheism.

Aveline never explicitly or implicitly says she believes in the Maker.

Ariella wrote...

If Hawke was raised in a believing home, which seems to be the case, why would Hawke be an atheist?

The same reason anyone else is.

Ariella wrote...

Hawke is an average individual, and unless exposed to the idea that such a thing is possible, Hawke would have no reason to doubt otherwise.

Hawke would have the same reasons to doubt that anyone else does.

Ariella wrote...

The GAME provides no reason to doubt the Maker.

Except for the many reasons it does, including being an apostate who may not believe in the rhetoric from the Chantry of Andraste.

Ariella wrote...

The Chantry as it's run, yes, but there's no viable reason for society to start doubting the Maker... yet.

There are many reasons to doubt the Chantry of Andraste, which is the reason why Aveline doesn't believe in the Chant and why the protagonist of Origins can say they don't believe in the Maker.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 juin 2011 - 06:04 .

[Ariella]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

You miss the point, which is at the beginning of the Dragon Age, there's no real reason NOT to believe and a host of reasons why belief in the Maker is the norm in Human society [/quote]

Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker. Aveline doesn't believe in the Chant (and the consensus is split between her being an atheist and agnostic). Since even The Warden could be an atheist, I don't see why Hawke couldn't.
[/quote]

First of all, where does it give that the Warden (if they were human, Dalish or city elves) could not believe in the Maker or elven gods. Second, Morrigan was raised OUTSIDE societial norms by an abomination. Not exactly helpful to your case. Aveline doesn't believe in the Chant, but she never comes out and says she doesn't believe in the Maker. More agnostic or theist than atheist, and Aveline too had reason to question based on her family life. There, however, is no indication that there was EVER in Hawke's family life a reason for Hawke to being to disbelieve.

And there's a substancial difference between doubting or questioning God or, the Marker in this case, and doubting He exists


[quote]Ariella wrote...

I do believe that the Dragon Age is going to provide that shake up, starting with the mage/templar conflict, but while that might be enough to break the supremecy of the Chantry, it doesn't mean people enmasse are going to start disbelieving. It's going to take something huge to shake the faith of the majority of an entire continent. [/quote]

This isn't about what the majority believe in, but the capacity for an individual to simply not adhere to religious docturine.[/quote]

Atheism isn't about not adherring to religious doctrine. There's a difference between FAITH and doctrine. I don't keep kosher, yet I believe in God, and I don't go to temple every Saturday but I consider myself a Jew.

Atheism means one who does not believe in diety, any deity. As a friend of mine once put it: he's as atheisitic to Zeus or Odin as he is to the Christian concept of God.

That's the difference between being non-practicing or "lapsed" (though I dislike that term) like Fenris and true atheism like Morrigan.

But even Morrigan's "atheism" can be questioned considering she believes in the Old Gods. She doesn't worship them, but she believes.

[Ryzaki]

leonia42 wrote...

Are we really trying to rationalise Hawke's religious leanings based on what he says while killing people?

 

That's the only way to know for sure. :innocent:

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We are not talking about a small practise, we are talking about a major issue. That of mages. Hawke cannot be a real consistent believer in the Chantry without applying its dogma vis-a-vis mages or accepting it (he does neither). He can be an Andrastrian with liberal views, but not a Chantry loyalist.

I know plenty of religious people who believe very strongly in certain major issues "with the exception of me/my family!" but that would be getting into reeel wowld exampuhls that would make people angry

Maybe you can't play a consistently logical Hawke, but again, logic... really isn't a prerequisite for strong religious faith. You can believe in something very strongly and still violate it repeatedly. The power of denial and selective rationalization is staggering.

The door is completely open for a Hawke who believes mages must be controlled but is willing to sin, with or without a healthy dose of self-loathing.

[Leonia]

Ryzaki wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Are we really trying to rationalise Hawke's religious leanings based on what he says while killing people?

 

That's the only way to know for sure. :innocent:

This used to be fun.. oh look there's some people talking about what atheism actually is.. maybe the thread isn't dead yet.