115 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 01 juin 2011 - 09:15 .

[ObserverStatus]

mass effect technology itself was acquired from the reapers

[candidate88766]

Studying the Reaper IFF caused the Cerberus team to get indoctrinated, and studying Object Rho caused Kenson and her team to become indoctrinated.

The Conduit wasn't studied, only used by Saren and Shepard.

The Keepers aren't directly Reaper technology, only a species that - like the Collectors - have been changed by the Reapers to serve their need.

We don't know what effects, if any, have been had on the team that studied researched Saren's weapons and made the Thanix, and we don't know how much reaper tech was involved with making EDI.

I'd say studying Reaper technology is still pretty dangerous.

Saphra Deden wrote...

I won't let fear compromise who I am and so that is why I am too afraid to study Reaper tech, because it is dangerous stuff.

Call it a hunch, but I'm guessing you disapprove of destroying the base?

[Any_ILL]

It's absolutely not foolish if your experience said it will not show any result (we don't know much about the reaper technology after living in the citadel and using mass effect for millenium. And don't tell me the salarians never tried to understand how it worked).
What you could gain from the collector base technology in a few month is compensated by the risk of cerberus being indoctrinated (of course it seems they will, but we can't know that).

And how the reaper succeeded in controlling all the races for 37 millions years at least? Oh yeah, by making them using their technologies, disit sovereign. If they can do that with the technology in the citadel, what makes you think they can't mislead us with the collectors base's one?

[Any_ILL]

the captured persons where killed quickly, indoctrination takes time. The base contain a reaper larva by the way, and I won't let TIM the opportunity to study it. And that was not even my main concern.

[candidate88766]

Saphra Deden wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

Call it a hunch, but I'm guessing you disapprove of destroying the base?

Very much so. It is a golden opportunity to study our enemy. The best opportunity yet. It is foolish to just blow it up.

It was a tough call for me. In the end I normally destroy it, partly out of the potential risk of indoctrination from the Reaper larvae, partly due to not trusting TIM, and partly because it just felt wrong. I gave my main Shepard morality and principles to match my own and that ended up pretty much on the paragon path. I'm sure that path will lead to mistakes in ME3, and it may be a naive view to take, but I'll stick to my guns and hopefully won't pull any punches in the final game.

[candidate88766]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What risk is there of Cerberus being indoctrinated? While it is possible the schematics for indoctrination devices are inside the base, the base itself has shown now capability to indoctrinate. The Collectors were controlled by implants, not indoctrination. The captured crew and colonists were not indoctrinated either.

It still has the remains of a Reaper Larvae in it.

[CaptainZaysh]

candidate88766 wrote...

Studying the Reaper IFF caused the Cerberus team to get indoctrinated,

And allowed the Normandy to carry out the attack on the Collector Base.

candidate88766 wrote...
and studying Object Rho caused Kenson and her team to become indoctrinated.

And allowed us to destroy the alpha relay, and delay the Arrival.

candidate88766 wrote...
The Conduit wasn't studied, only used by Saren and Shepard.

It was the outcome of Prothean study of the mass relays.

candidate88766 wrote...
The Keepers aren't directly Reaper technology, only a species that - like the Collectors - have been changed by the Reapers to serve their need.

But the Protheans studied them, and modified them to not carry out the cycle next time.

candidate88766 wrote...
We don't know what effects, if any, have been had on the team that studied researched Saren's weapons and made the Thanix,

But we do know the effect of the Thanix on the collector cruiser.  Kaboom!

candidate88766 wrote...
and we don't know how much reaper tech was involved with making EDI.

EDI's anti-Reaper algorithms were mission critical at least twice.

candidate88766 wrote...
I'd say studying Reaper technology is still pretty dangerous.

It is dangerous.  But my point is that it's been incredibly effective.  If the Protheans hadn't studied and subverted Reaper tech there wouldn't even have been a Mass Effect 1.  And if Cerberus and the council races hadn't done the same, Mass Effect 2 would have been impossible to win.  Every victory we've achieved over the Reapers has come as a result of studying their tech.  And that's why destroying the base is the most catastrophically stupid strategic decision ever made.

[HogarthHughes 3]

I think most people tend to destroy the base simply because they don't trust TIM/Cerberus, and with good reason. Don't get me wrong I still prefer to keep it on my canon Shepard, and not because I don't expect TIM to: Stab Shepard in the back, try to take over the council to ensure human (more like his) dominance, or some other dastardly deed that is generally bad for everyone but TIM. The only thing I think TIM can really be counted on for is fighting the reapers one way or another. Unfortunately that has to be enough when a vastly technologically superior enemy is trying to destroy all life in the galaxy (and has already done so for who knows how long).

Reaper technology has been invaluable in the fight against them. The knowledge potentially learned from the collector base is well worth the risk.

Of course, seeing as how its a choice (that can be carried over to ME3) it obviously isn't necessary to stop the reapers. Thats meta-gaming though, and I prefer to keep my choices as in-character as possible. Who knows, maybe saving the base could save lives in the ME universe, or maybe it'll just make the Cerberus super soldiers we have to fight tougher. Can't say until ME3 is out.

[candidate88766]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

It is dangerous.  But my point is that it's been incredibly effective.  If the Protheans hadn't studied and subverted Reaper tech there wouldn't even have been a Mass Effect 1.  And if Cerberus and the council races hadn't done the same, Mass Effect 2 would have been impossible to win.  Every victory we've achieved over the Reapers has come as a result of studying their tech.  And that's why destroying the base is the most catastrophically stupid strategic decision ever made.

Ok, I see what you're saying now. So essentially, studying Reaper tech does get results but it also causes collateral damage. For renegades, the ends justify the means so any collateral damage is irrelevant because, as you say, using Reaper tech has given results. For paragons, if the collateral damage is too high then they deem the use of the technology not worth the price it'll cost. Near enough every example you gave has cost lives, but I agree that you're right and they have lead to results. Neither view is necessarily the right one. I personally think Cerberus has crossed the line too many times to be trusted with the potential technology of the base - I think they'd abuse that power and end up being a hindrance to the galaxy.

Maybe you have to cross to the line in order to save the galaxy, but I base my Shepard's decisions on the decisions I would make. If I was the man in charge, like TIM or Hackett, then I probably would step over the line for the greater good. However, playing as Shepard - the man on the ground as it were - you see the human (and alien) cost of some of the decisions and I think sometimes that cost isn't worth it. That may well be a naive view of things, but thats how I feel.

Also, bear in mind we've only had two victories against the Reapers. Destroying a Reaper - which at least one other civilization has done before and still failed, and destroying the Collectors - and while getting there relied on Reaper technology, it was Shepard and the squad, not Reaper technology, that actually won that battle. The Collector ship can be destroyed regardless of whether you have the Thanix cannon. The Protheans were further ahead with Reaper technology - they were able to actually build a Relay, and they still failed. To actually beat the Reapers, I think we need to use something outside their influence. They will have counters to all their own technology, and they can anticipate every weapon civilization can throw at them, so I'm not convinced the Base will even be that useful. Personally, I think the Geth will be the key to their defeat as they've been outside Reaper influence for 300 years now.

Modifié par candidate88766, 01 juin 2011 - 12:11 .

[Arijharn]

I'm sure attempting to fly for humanity was really dangerous too until some bright spark finally managed managed to do it. Hell, you occasionally hear that planes still crash, so it hardly makes the technology 'mature' in any real sense.

Furthermore, we're absolutely boned if we don't try and negate some of the Reapers advantages, and I honestly think it's the mark of the boneheaded to not even want to try because you/they/someone fears the boogeyman. Yes it's a big threat, yes it's a big maybe... but if at the end of the day it could mean the difference then well, wouldn't you feel stupid (and yeah, guilty too) if you didn't try to find some way to circumvent the disadvantage.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The issue for me has never been Keeping the Base/ Destroying the Base because its too much of a risk it was who we were giving the base to that was the deal breaker for me.

[Da Mecca]

Object Rho didn't work are you crazy?

Cerberus has never had a project that has gone right.

[Odoyle]

The Conduit wasn't Reaper technology. It was Prothean technology; they were on the verge of figuring out mass relay technology for themselves, and the Conduit was a prototype. It may have been based on Reaper tech, but there was no Reaper tech in the actual relay itself.

Studying the Reaper IFF isn't what got the Cerberus science team indoctrinated, it was spending all that time in such close proximity to a "dead" reaper. Watch the last science log on the terminal about how even "dead gods still dream". If the Reaper IFF was dangerous, everyone on the Normandy would become indoctrinated over time.

EDI is an AI, created by Cerberus. How does she even come close to Reaper technology?

I thought Thanix canons were invented by the Turians after the Battle for the Citadel, but I could be wrong on that one. They may be based on the type of weaponry Sovereign used, but there would be no Reaper tech used in their construction.

Modifié par Odoyle, 01 juin 2011 - 04:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

candidate88766 wrote...

Studying the Reaper IFF caused the Cerberus team to get indoctrinated, and studying Object Rho caused Kenson and her team to become indoctrinated.

And the alternative to not studying them better, with an unstopped Collector race continuing its abduction of hundreds of thousands of people, as opposed to the death of maybe a few dozen Cerberus volunteers, and the alternative to studying Object Rho being the Reapers undelayed arrival leading to the deaths of trillions?

That's horrifically immoral to prefer far greater costs of innocents to the deaths of volonteers willing to take the risks.

The Conduit wasn't studied, only used by Saren and Shepard.

The Mass Relays most certainly were studied by the Protheans in order to produce the Conduit.

The Keepers aren't directly Reaper technology, only a species that - like the Collectors - have been changed by the Reapers to serve their need.

By the same logic, Reaper technology isn't directly Reaper technology, because its just a bunch of universal principals that have been utilized by the Reapers to serve their needs.

There is no such thing as Reaper technology by that standard.

We don't know what effects, if any, have been had on the team that studied researched Saren's weapons and made the Thanix,

Not enough to deny the Thanix.

and we don't know how much reaper tech was involved with making EDI.

Enough to allow her to beat the Reapers own proxies in cyberwarfare.

[Destroy Raiden_]

The reapers want you to study their things so that you will develop counter measures based off their items so they can defeat you easily and predictability.

If you know the end result of there tech which is usually indoctrination by proxy you can make counter measures based off the wreckages you can test lasers on the hull scraps of a dead sovereign for instance and you can find out via the pieces what will work and what won't w/o the indoctrination effects so you can make weapons they aren't anticipating to defeat them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Da Mecca wrote...

Object Rho didn't work are you crazy?

I seem to recall the Project slamming into a Mass Relay, delaying the Reapers by monthes.

Cerberus has never had a project that has gone right.

Just like the CIA.

[Dean_the_Young]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

The reapers want you to study their things so that you will develop counter measures based off their items so they can defeat you easily and predictability.

Uh, no.

The Reapers want you to centralize your galactic government on the Citadel so they can launch a decapitation strike and shut down the Mass Relays, leaving your civilization divided and at a lower tech level of their choosing. The current galaxy is divided, and we are at their desired tech level now.

The Reaper cycle is not based around the discovery and adoption of 'pure' Reaper technology of the Reapers themselves. Only the remains and un-studyable devices they intended (the Citadel, the Relays).

If you know the end result of there tech which is usually indoctrination by proxy you can make counter measures based off the wreckages you can test lasers on the hull scraps of a dead sovereign for instance and you can find out via the pieces what will work and what won't w/o the indoctrination effects so you can make weapons they aren't anticipating to defeat them.

They already know where our current technology is. The Collectors demonstrated that they've been able to accurately predict our tech development by a decade or more.

Our current technology is not a mystery to the Reapers. We aren't going to out-tech them with stuff hundreds of years behind them any more than the British empire circa-1800 could out-tech modern day France.