115 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

If I had the option to give the base to anyone else except Cerberus (you know, people who do understand that setting up shop inside a Reaper or near Reaper artifacts is pretty ****ing stupid), I'd save it.

[Saaziel]

Frankly I never liked the idea that Reaper tech could be studied at all.

We're talking about godlike aliens Millions (Billions?) of years old. Their tech is as far off our understandings , as a moth making sense of cell phone. The relays are purposefully made to be used by us , like a spider spinning its web , its part of the trap. Even then , just because you can use something doesn't mean you understand it ; Give to a Pre-Socratic greek a gun and he'll shoot something , and probably attribute it to a gift from Apollo.

It lessen the Reapers as a threat .

The best opportunity to study the Reapers was the "Derelict" . And if T.I.M. didn't managed to get what he needed out of it , he proved himself incompetent or incapable of anything similar. *BOOM*

[Dean_the_Young]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Studying Object Rho gave away to us that we needed to destroy the Alpha relay. Buying us more time to prepare for the Reaper invasion.

How is that not a success?

And what if this vision was a distraction and compelled the Reaper's enemies to destroy the Relay to get a false sense of savety whilst the Reapers use the real Alpha Relay and catch everyone on their wrong feet/tentacles/whatever?

And what if you were never born? Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

However, you were born, and the only reason we knew the Reapers were coming at all was because of Object Rho itself. Had Object Rho not given a vision at all, the Reapers would have had total surprise and won.

Maybe there was never an Alpha Relay to begin with and they did was destroy an ordinary Relay and kill thousands over thousands of Batarians and start a destabilizing conflict, softening the Batarians up for Reaper Indoctrination so they get their hands on an easy pawn they could use?

There is an Alpha Relay. Failing to destroy it (running down the clock) reveals the alternate ending.

Or now that the Citadel is no longer under Reaper control, the only way to cut off systems is to overload/cripple the Relay network as to what you just contributed with destroying a link in the chain which the Reapers can easily use to deactivate the network if they are finally in reach?

The relay network isn't overloaded/crippled.

I find it astonishing how quick people are to believe what merely seems obvious, but has nearly infinite possible ways on how you may have just given them a box of sweet extinction candy, especially as the species in ME simply can't fathom their mistakes on this advanced technology until it comes kicking them in their crotches really hard.

There aren't infinite possibilities, nor are all alternatives equal.

Object Rho was a disaster, either a small administrative one, or a galaxy wide extinction one. But a disaster nontheless. Whether it was a helpful disaster is still open for questioning.

'Disaster' always has to be an evaluation by the alternative.

[AngelicMachinery]

Saaziel wrote...

Frankly I never liked the idea that Reaper tech could be studied at all.

We're talking about godlike aliens Millions (Billions?) of years old. Their tech is as far off our understandings , as a moth making sense of cell phone. The relays are purposefully made to be used by us , like a spider spinning its web , its part of the trap. Even then , just because you can use something doesn't mean you understand it ; Give to a Pre-Socratic greek a gun and he'll shoot something , and probably attribute it to a gift from Apollo.

It lessen the Reapers as a threat .

The best opportunity to study the Reapers was the "Derelict" . And if T.I.M. didn't managed to get what he needed out of it , he proved himself incompetent or incapable of anything similar. *BOOM*

This would make sense if the Reapers didn't force use to base our technology on theories they already established.  As such,  it's not much of a reach that we would be able to tinker with said equipment if we put our minds to it.  If they say,  were completely alien with tech that was based on different principal than the citadel races than stufying it may be difficult.

[Saaziel]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

This would make sense if the Reapers didn't force use to base our technology on theories they already established.  As such,  it's not much of a reach that we would be able to tinker with said equipment if we put our minds to it.  If they say,  were completely alien with tech that was based on different principal than the citadel races than stufying it may be difficult.

Like i said , the tech we're familiar with are purposefully made to be used by us. It wouldn't be a good trap if we could not access it . Anything beyond the Relays and Biotics is a completely different matter. This , particular , objection of mine is mainly from a storytelling point of view. The unknown is terrifying ; Nothing trivializes enemies more than making sense of them.



I simply disagree with the writers and the depiction they made of the Reapers . It could have been darker , and far more horrifying.



That not withstanding , T.I.M. proved his worth with the "Derelict" either way.

Modifié par Saaziel, 01 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[Moiaussi]

Actually the IFF is what got the Normandy coopted and it was only the exceedingly unlikely event of Joker getting to the computer core to unshackle EDI that salvaged the situation.

Studying the derelict didn't find out about the IFF, they learned about it from the Collector ship.

As for stopping the collectors, simply blowing up the Collector's ship would have done it, something any decent fleet should have been able to manage. Even a couple cruisers should have been enough.

As for the information coming through object Rho, that is arguably useful, but it is surprising Shepard didn't get a direct warning anyway since he seems to get these visions of the Reaper fleet.

[Someone With Mass]

If we find a way to counter indoctrination (without throwing as many as possible at it until we stumble upon a solution) then I'm for salvaging at least parts of Reaper tech.

[AngelicMachinery]

Saaziel wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

This would make sense if the Reapers didn't force use to base our technology on theories they already established.  As such,  it's not much of a reach that we would be able to tinker with said equipment if we put our minds to it.  If they say,  were completely alien with tech that was based on different principal than the citadel races than stufying it may be difficult.

Like i said , the tech we're familiar with are purposefully made to be used by us. It wouldn't be a good trap if we could not access it . Anything beyond the Relays and Biotics is a completely different matter. This , particular , objection of mine is mainly from a storytelling point of view. The unknown is terrifying ; Nothing trivializes enemies
more than making sense of them.



I simply disagree with the writers and the depiction they made of the Reapers . It could have been darker , and far more horrifying.



That not withstanding , T.I.M. proved his worth with the "Derelict" either way.

I'm of the oppinion that since the Reapers come to Harvest biological and technological parts he technology will have to be adaptable with their own technology. 

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I won't let fear compromise who I am and so that is why I am too afraid to study Reaper tech, because it is dangerous stuff.

Shep's concern was more about the Illusive Man than about the Reaper tech, actually. No, really, it's the thing he/she focuses on when she's voicing concerns about using the tech; Miranda, oddly enough, is the one who says something about using it seeming like a "betrayal." (Shepard does have one line at the beginning of the exchange voicing the urge to simply destroy it, but it doesn't come up when Shepard has his little spat with TIM afterward.)

It's more about the Illusive Man's methods when that "sacrifice the soul of our species" line comes up than it is about Reaper tech. If it were simply about Reaper tech being dangerous, Shepard would just outright say that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And what if you were never born? Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

That came off wrong ...

Actually, it came off entirely correct. There are any number of could-have-beens that would wipe you (or me) from existence and remove all relevance.

They did not, however, happen.

Non-canon game ending? As in non-canon?

It's canon in the sense of 'if Shepard failed, the Reapers would go through and win.' It's as canon as the plausibility of Shepard dying in the Suicide Mission: while Shepard doesn't die, just as Shepard doesn't fail, IF Shepard did then X would result.

Also, that ending is less than telling. Or did anyone see the Reapers arriving through the Relay?

It's the very first scene in the vision.

Have you people considered that? Rule#1 in story realization: Never trust the devs, they are sneaky bastards and will make you assume things so they can surprise you. That's what good writers do. And BioWare has VERY good writers.

Actually, Bioware's writers in Mass Effect have continually followed the exact opposite principal: what the story says can be trusted, because all relevant deceptions are revealed and spelled out later.

You are still taking things for granted just because they are convinient. That alternate ending does in no way support your take on this question in an unfalsifyable way. That is what I am trying to tell you. Everything is possible. You may be right and it really is that way, I may be right and it was really that twisting, the random dude in some park letting his dog out for a poo may be right.

In the end, only the writers know and they won't tell us until later on. Don't jump to conclusions you can't uphold.

When you outright say 'screw the game, they're lying', there's no argument that can be made to you. You've already invalidated every medium and primary source of information of the franchise... a concession absolutely no one needs to grant you.

You can ignore the game if you wish. Just don't expect to be taken seriously.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Those who feel Cerberus never did things right seems to have forgotten all about Mass Effect 2.


Do you think that if all the Japanese simply avoided all nuclear radiation they'd be able to prevent a nuclear meltdown?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 01 juin 2011 - 06:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Never mind: I should know better by now.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 juin 2011 - 06:12 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Those who feel Cerberus never did things right seems to have forgotten all about Mass Effect 2.


Do you think that if all the Japanese simply avoided all nuclear radiation they'd be able to prevent a nuclear meltdown?

Outside of the Lazarus project they didn't do much of anything really,  just as the citadel and alliance didn't do much of anything in ME.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@ Thread Starter

Seeker Swarm counter

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Those who feel Cerberus never did things right seems to have forgotten all about Mass Effect 2.


Do you think that if all the Japanese simply avoided all nuclear radiation they'd be able to prevent a nuclear meltdown?

Outside of the Lazarus project they didn't do much of anything really,  just as the citadel and alliance didn't do much of anything in ME.

Normandy SR2, Derelect Reaper and IFF, EDI, Dossiers on your team, finding the Collector Vessel.

Basically, the Collectors wouldn't have been found in time (if at all) if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector Base wouldn't have been reached if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector's abduction of Earth wouldn't have been stopped if it weren't for Cerberus.  Shepard would still be dead if it weren't for Cerberus.  Had Cerberus destroyed the derelect Reaper before we acquired the IFF, we would've never made it to the Collector Base. 

[Saaziel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Had Cerberus destroyed the derelect Reaper before we acquired the IFF, we would've never made it to the Collector Base.

Why would Cerberus purposefully destroy the Derelict?

Speaking of which , Why didn't Cerberus informed the Galactic community of the Derelict ? Who's to say that revealing the Derelict would not have prevented more Collector attacks , or provided an ultimate weapon against the Reapers. You see, Cerberus is just as much to blame as it is to be praised if you start speculating. None of what you mentioned actually redeems Cerberus.

Taken for what's its worth , Resurrecting Shep is the only successful Cerberus operation. And without Shep nothing else Cerberus done in ME2 would have ever yielded positive results. Which is not surprising considering you (the player/shep) is the only thing that matters.

It would be a pretty boring game if some random NPC defeated the Reapers.

Modifié par Saaziel, 01 juin 2011 - 06:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Okay Dean, there is one thing we need to sort out which you seem to misunderstand.

I am not invalidating anything. I am merely stating what possible things could invalidate forwarded arguments to concieve my point, which is to not jump to conclusions.

Many people in here either take things for granted or seem to think their reasoning is the ultima ratio. All I am trying to convey is people should consider alternatives. I admit that I have a very lively mind on alternatives as a whole, but I don't regard any of them any more valid or viable than someone else's. I merely remind people to not get stuck in specific patterns/opinions if there is little reason to.


That is frankly why I am wondering that people try to argue about that, but I take it I simply can't explain my admittedly sometimes weird brain twists. My fault. But please, don't try to argue against the philosophy of an open mind.

I hope I could state my intentions better this time.

Rest assured, nothing after the first two points dulled the laughter.

[Labrev]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

Your examples don't refute that Reaper tech is dangerous.

Sure it has "worked" but if this is a rebuttal to the base, I don't think its the value that is in question. Just the ramifications of Cerberus' handling of it. With good reason.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saaziel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Had Cerberus destroyed the derelect Reaper before we acquired the IFF, we would've never made it to the Collector Base.

Why would Cerberus purposefully destroy the Derelict?

Speaking of which , Why didn't Cerberus informed the Galactic community of the Derelict ? Who's to say that revealing the Derelict would not have prevented more Collector attacks , or provided an ultimate weapon against the Reapers. You see, Cerberus is just as much to blame as it is to be praised if you start speculating. None of what you mentioned actually redeems Cerberus.

Really not how the blame game works, since the Galactic community had already made its conclusion and coverup decision a policy, despite their having their own plethora of Reaper tech to work with. Any argument that the galactic community would have taken advantage of the Derilect Reaper against the Collectors has to confront why they didn't act against the Collectors with what they did know, as well as work out why an Alliance/Council team would have preserved the Reaper, when Shepard was forced to destroy it.

Not all speculations are equal, not all hypotheticals are of equal weight.

Taken for what's its worth , Resurrecting Shep is the only successful Cerberus operation. And without Shep nothing else Cerberus done in ME2 would have ever yielded positive results. Which is not surprising considering you (the player/shep) is the only thing that matters.

How did the operations mentioned in the Shadow Broker files fail? How did the Akuze tests fail? 

More importantly, in the field of exploratory research (to figure if something is possible), how is learning a 'no, it's not reasonable' an abject failure.

Heck, why do you make univeral judgements about an organization you know barely any history of their projects?

[Dean_the_Young]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

Your examples don't refute that Reaper tech is dangerous.

His examples have never tried to refute that Reaper tech is dangerous.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Normandy SR2, Derelect Reaper and IFF, EDI, Dossiers on your team, finding the Collector Vessel.

Basically, the Collectors wouldn't have been found in time (if at all) if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector Base wouldn't have been reached if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector's abduction of Earth wouldn't have been stopped if it weren't for Cerberus.  Shepard would still be dead if it weren't for Cerberus.  Had Cerberus destroyed the derelect Reaper before we acquired the IFF, we would've never made it to the Collector Base. 

EDI is arguably a contribution, however the SR2 could have been just as easily built and provided by the Alliance or Council. It seems unlikely that if Cerberus wasn't causing mistrust that Shep wouldn't have been given a fresh ship.

The Derelict was discovered by Shepard in ME1, so it isn't a Cerberus anything. In fact, Cerberus conceiled its nature, or Shepard might have had proof to present to the Council regarding the existance of Reapers. There were no surviving Cerberus teams on board by the time Shepard boards it. If Cerberus had destroyed it, they would have just been going one step further to conciel the evidence, and it does actually get destroyed in recovering the IFF.

The dossiers could just as easily have been developed by anyone, and other than Mordin, it is hardly a given that any of the people recruited were absolutely neccessary. It is also hardly a given that Mordin is the only one who would have been able to counter the seekers. Other STG scientists might have been just as able.

The Collector vessel wasn't much of a threat. It was nothing that two cruisers couldn't have taken out easily. It was weak enough that an unupgraded SR2 can defeat it. As for the intel, if TIM simply provided the information (possibly by way of 'leaking' it), there is nothing that couldn't have been done just as easily by others.

[Labrev]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

Your examples don't refute that Reaper tech is dangerous.

His examples have never tried to refute that Reaper tech is dangerous.

Thread title = "Studying Reaper tech is dangerous and has never worked...
"

OK, studying, whatever.