115 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

Your examples don't refute that Reaper tech is dangerous.

His examples have never tried to refute that Reaper tech is dangerous.

Thread title = "Studying Reaper tech is dangerous and has never worked...
"

OK, studying, whatever.

Co-requistes are such wonderful things.

[Thompson family]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

A good point, but the conduit was a small-scale Prothean copy of a Mass Relay, and not a fully functional one at that. So perhaps the better way to express your point would be "keepers, Mass Relays, the Citadel, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, and EDI."

I wouldn't include Object Rho. It didn't provide much useful information. Shep already knew the Reapers were coming. If anything, the dedicated scientists who were in the process of proving Shep's visions were lured into indoctrination and death. Yes, they set up the conditions to destroy the Alpha Relay first, but all that did was delay the invasion by a couple of months.

[Nashiktal]

The reason it never works is because no one ever tries using artificial means of studying them. Unmanned probes, remote controlled synthetics, cameras, etc.

Really if it wasn't due to genre blindness they would have done so already.

[Saaziel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not all speculations are equal, not all hypotheticals are of equal weight.

So how would you measure the merit of speculations and weigh hypotheticals prior to actual testing ?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How did the operations mentioned in the Shadow Broker files fail? How did the Akuze tests fail?

I don't recall the details , but neither relates or mention the involvement of Reaper tech (But its been a while so ...) .

Dean_the_Young wrote...More importantly, in the field of exploratory research (to figure if something is possible), how is learning a 'no, it's not reasonable' an abject failure.

I don't rememder going so far as saying "Abject failures" , they certainly were internally unsuccessful. The only project that managed to meet its primary objective was the "Lazarus" project. Everything else was contingent on Sheppard's action from then on. Of course you could dodge the issue by painting with broad strokes; Yes Cerberus's goal was to stop the Collectors, yes they succeeded. This success (Or any failure) doesn't automatically translate to individual cells or the illusive man.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Heck, why do you make univeral judgements about an organization you know barely any history of their projects?

Do you mean "You": Me , "You": proxy/canon Sheppard , or "You" : Me as Sheppard ?

------
Totally unrelated post ,Since I have a few minutes to spare , I'lll take a stab in the dark with this.

The idea that, unspecific, Reaper tech is safe to study , is here presented with the subtext that it vindicates the Renegade option to save the collector base. Here again the underlying issue is obfuscated : is Cerberus as an organisation ; Good/ trustworthy/correct et cetera , and by association , all of its actions/ personnel /projects.

The parameters are too generalise to actually answer the original post , and the issue is lost in the particular instances.

I don't want to speak for others , but the impression I'm getting is that Reaper tech is perceived as "Safe" , and so long as its been done properly , can work.

None of the other issues on the periphery can be tackled unless defined properly.

Modifié par Saaziel, 01 juin 2011 - 09:21 .

[Someone With Mass]

Nashiktal wrote...

The reason it never works is because no one ever tries using artificial means of studying them. Unmanned probes, remote controlled synthetics, cameras, etc.

Really if it wasn't due to genre blindness they would have done so already.

This.

How hard is it to just send in a few remote controlled mechs, anyway? 

[Spartanburger]

I'm all for studying reaper tech but unless it is done safely and securely in was that would prevent any kind of accident that would ruin everything.
Also, I'd hand the base over if it was to an organization that actually had a good track record on stuff like that, and I would want updates on what happens within the hour of it happening. So no, I did not hand it over to Cerberus.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saaziel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Had Cerberus destroyed the derelect Reaper before we acquired the IFF, we would've never made it to the Collector Base.

Why would Cerberus purposefully destroy the Derelict?

Speaking of which , Why didn't Cerberus informed the Galactic community of the Derelict ? Who's to say that revealing the Derelict would not have prevented more Collector attacks , or provided an ultimate weapon against the Reapers. You see, Cerberus is just as much to blame as it is to be praised if you start speculating. None of what you mentioned actually redeems Cerberus.

Taken for what's its worth , Resurrecting Shep is the only successful Cerberus operation. And without Shep nothing else Cerberus done in ME2 would have ever yielded positive results. Which is not surprising considering you (the player/shep) is the only thing that matters.

It would be a pretty boring game if some random NPC defeated the Reapers.

Why would Cerberus purposefully destroy the Derelict?  Why would Shepard purposefully destroy the Collector base?  The Galactic community viewed the Reapers as Geth technology and would disregard it... while yet others would attempt to salvage it for their own purposes and leave Cerberus with nothing.

Resurrecting Shepard was not the only successful operation.  The suicide mission was also a huge success.  As well as projects like EDI, seeker swarm counter tech, Normandy SR2, etc.

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Normandy SR2, Derelect Reaper and IFF, EDI, Dossiers on your team, finding the Collector Vessel.

Basically, the Collectors wouldn't have been found in time (if at all) if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector Base wouldn't have been reached if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector's abduction of Earth wouldn't have been stopped if it weren't for Cerberus.  Shepard would still be dead if it weren't for Cerberus.  Had Cerberus destroyed the derelect Reaper before we acquired the IFF, we would've never made it to the Collector Base. 

EDI is arguably a contribution, however the SR2 could have been just as easily built and provided by the Alliance or Council. It seems unlikely that if Cerberus wasn't causing mistrust that Shep wouldn't have been given a fresh ship.

The Derelict was discovered by Shepard in ME1, so it isn't a Cerberus anything. In fact, Cerberus conceiled its nature, or Shepard might have had proof to present to the Council regarding the existance of Reapers. There were no surviving Cerberus teams on board by the time Shepard boards it. If Cerberus had destroyed it, they would have just been going one step further to conciel the evidence, and it does actually get destroyed in recovering the IFF.

The dossiers could just as easily have been developed by anyone, and other than Mordin, it is hardly a given that any of the people recruited were absolutely neccessary. It is also hardly a given that Mordin is the only one who would have been able to counter the seekers. Other STG scientists might have been just as able.

The Collector vessel wasn't much of a threat. It was nothing that two cruisers couldn't have taken out easily. It was weak enough that an unupgraded SR2 can defeat it. As for the intel, if TIM simply provided the information (possibly by way of 'leaking' it), there is nothing that couldn't have been done just as easily by others.

The SR2 was made by Cerberus and was successful.  Are you suggesting that because others could do it that detracts from Cerberus's accomplishments?  If so, then where's all the hate from Cerberus's fail rate coming from?  No one else did any better... and if anyone could learn from their mistakes going back to Reaper technology, it'd be a vet like Cerberus over an inexperienced Alliance team.

The Derelict was in the hands of Cerberus and was not destroyed prior to recovering the IFF.  Had it been destroyed before then, we never would've made it past the Omega 4 relay... or even knew that we needed an IFF for that matter (assuming it was destroyed before studying like some people here are proponents of).  This is irrefutable proof that constantly destroying things about the enemy (even with indoctrination as a threat) isn't the best idea without another way to beat them.

As far as the dossiers, Cerberus did it, and because of the contribution of those members the suicide mission wasn't a problem.  You had no other options in-game.  The Council would not help you, your allies would not help you.  You needed atleast Mordin, a tech, and a powerful biotic to get you through the suicide mission. 

Regarding the Collector vessel, keep in mind that if you hadn't split your group into multiple teams during the suicide mission, all attention would've been focused on Shepard.  It was the entire team that ensured the mission's success.  Harder than you think it is to pull off... even if it went well.

These are 100% fact.   The Collectors wouldn't have been found in time (if at all) if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector Base wouldn't have been reached if it weren't for Cerberus.  The Collector's abduction of Earth wouldn't have been stopped if it weren't for Cerberus.  Shepard would still be dead if it weren't for Cerberus.  Had Cerberus destroyed the derelect Reaper before we acquired the IFF, we would've never made it to the Collector Base.  Cerberus did a lot of things right.  May not trust them but there's no denying those facts.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 01 juin 2011 - 08:26 .

[Saaziel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Why would Shepard purposefully destroy the Collector base?

Because he/she is fighting an insurmountable number of collector drones & Harbinger/collector general and the clock is ticking; Either escape/die fighting for nothing, destroy an enemy's strategic resource in the process or give the base/Reaper tech to someone with a questionable track record in that matter.

In game however its to spare the soul of the species or something to that effect.

{edit}

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...The suicide mission was also a huge success.  As well as projects like EDI, seeker swarm counter tech, Normandy SR2, etc.

Wasn't the Normandy a Turian/alliance thing? I'm not too familiar with EDI , I don't remember any game info about the project involved building her/it .Most of the success of ME2 are contigent on the result of Lazarus. And again it makes sense for a game to be build that way.

Modifié par Saaziel, 01 juin 2011 - 11:24 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saaziel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Why would Shepard purposefully destroy the Collector base?

Because he is fighting an insurmountable number of collector drones & Harbinger/collector general and the clock is ticking; Either escape/die fighting for nothing, destroy an enemy's strategic resource or give the base/Reaper tech to someone with a questionable track record in that matter.

In game however its to spare the soul of the species or something to that effect.

You can spare the soul of the species and save the base. 

The radiation pulse kills all living things (including the Collectors and their General).  Only the machinery and intel would survive.

That said, the answer I gave there was mainly pushing the point that, if the Derelect Reaper had been treated like the Collector Base, we would not have made it to the Collector Base.

Saaziel wrote...
Wasn't the Normandy a Turian/alliance thing? I'm not too familiar with EDI , I don't remember any game info about the project involved building her/it .Most of the success of ME2 are contigent on result of Lazarus. And again it makes sense for a game to be build that way.

The original Normandy was a collaborative effort, but the SR2 is a Cerberus vessel.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 01 juin 2011 - 08:38 .

[Saaziel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

You can spare the soul of the species and save the base.

Its from the game , not me. I personnally don't bother with it.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...The radiation pulse kills all living things (including the Collectors and their General). Only the machinery and intel would survive.

Which leaves the Base in T.I.M.'s hands.

Like i said.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...That said, the answer I gave there was mainly pushing the point that, if the Derelect Reaper had been treated like the Collector Base, we would not have made it to the Collector Base.

I must have misunderstood what you meant then.

I agree that destroying the Derelict on sight wouldn't have permitted access to the Omega 4 relay. That said the issue i brought up was on the Speculative nature of your argument. The : "What if we'd destroy the Derelict prior to acquiring the IFF " holds no water.

If the collector base was only , means to an end (defeating the Reapers ) . And if Reaper tech is safe to research , if done properly . It follows that the Derelict was the best opportunity to research/ formulate how to defeat the Reapers. Going through the Omega 4 relay , and therefore the IFF , are irrelevant since we have/had a better opportunity.

The fact the Cerberus squandered that opportunity only builds a stronger case against leaving the Base in its/their /his hands. And as Moiaussi pointed out; Cerberus went out of their way to conceal the Derelict , actually impairing proper research.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The original Normandy was a collaborative effort, but the SR2 is a Cerberus vessel.

Adding stickers to something doesn't appropriate you (Not "You" you , "You": anyone) its worth.

[88mphSlayer]

hey have i mentioned that it's dumb nobody studies reaper tech with robots so you can't get indoctrinated studying reaper tech?

pretty sure i've said this a billion times

[Saaziel]

Real men study Reaper tech up close and personal , bare chested in the vacuum of space ... sporting "Go ahead square , indoctrinate me! I dare you , i double dare you!" tattoos.

[Someone With Mass]

It's like bathing in radiation. You just don't do it. Intentionally.

[88mphSlayer]

Saaziel wrote...

Real men study Reaper tech up close and personal , bare chested in the vacuum of space ... sporting "Go ahead square , indoctrinate me! I dare you , i double dare you!" tattoos.

i blame the lack of proper facial hair in the mass effect universe

[Da Mecca]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...

Object Rho didn't work are you crazy?

I seem to recall the Project slamming into a Mass Relay, delaying the Reapers by monthes.

Cerberus has never had a project that has gone right.

Just like the CIA.

I seem to recall it indoctrinating the whole science team too.

[AngelicMachinery]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It's like bathing in radiation. You just don't do it. Intentionally.

What if you want super powers?

[AngelicMachinery]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

It's like bathing in radiation. You just don't do it. Intentionally.

What if you want super powers?

The only super power you'll get is the ability to grow cancerous cells.

For real?  I thought I could like join the X-men or something.

[Hatchetman77]

I blew up the base because I didn't want TIM to have the technology, not because studying it was dangerous.

[Smilietime]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

Thank you! There's a little saying: "Know you're enemy."

In real warfare, Intelligence and Logistics are key. Know what you're enemy is going to do, and make better toys then them to fight with. I would even say that what Cerberus does in Retribution is justified, and could have been helpful in the fight.

Some smart person said that wars are always decided before they begain. And even if Cerberus really is working for the reapers, we can steal THEIR stuff. We know Shephard is going to litteraly "Gundam Jack" Cerberus at least one toy.

Modifié par Smilietime, 01 juin 2011 - 11:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Saaziel wrote...


So how would you measure the merit of speculations and weigh hypotheticals prior to actual testing ?

Basic risk management, of course.

How likely is a factor?
How serious is a factor?
Is it possible to decrease the likelyhood of a factor occuring? If so, what does the likelyhood change to?
Is it possible to mitigate the severity of a factor? If so, what does the severity change to?

These are the four questions that collectively manage risk for everyone to market managers to soldiers planning a raid. Not all events are likely. Not all events are serious. Not all events can be mitigated in likelyhood, or in severity.

Scenario-arguing that revolves around a specific occurance of events, but ignores risk management, is meaningless.

I don't recall the details , but neither relates or mention the involvement of Reaper tech (But its been a while so ...) .

So... it's okay to bring up Cerberus failures in the context of Reaper tech and if they should keep it, but not in the sense of addressing whether those failures were actually failures.

Right.

I don't rememder going so far as saying "Abject failures" , they certainly were internally unsuccessful. The only project that managed to meet its primary objective was the "Lazarus" project. Everything else was contingent on Sheppard's action from then on. Of course you could dodge the issue by painting with broad strokes; Yes Cerberus's goal was to stop the Collectors, yes they succeeded. This success (Or any failure) doesn't automatically translate to individual cells or the illusive man.

General success flows to the people who hold responsibility, the same as the responsibility flows to those responsible for failure. Individual cells and TIM certainly do have claims (of various types) to Cerberus victories.

Do you mean "You": Me , "You": proxy/canon Sheppard , or "You" : Me as Sheppard ?

Yes.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 juin 2011 - 12:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Da Mecca wrote...

I seem to recall it indoctrinating the whole science team too.

Which made the project fail or be worse than not losing the team... how?

[Dean_the_Young]

Amateur. You're just trying to rewrite events already transpired.

A real magnificent bastard would focus on how things can be screwed in the future from what we know now. Like, just what do players intend to do about the fact that Cerberus has a weapon that can shatter planets from across galaxies in its possession, and no one else knows where it is now?

Cerberus doesn't need the Collector Base to kill the Aliens: it can simply snipe their planets from across the galaxy and then move the Mass Accelerator Canon before anyone realizes the shot has been fired.