115 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

It's about active reaper tech:
Keepers: unclear if it is even reaper tech. Probably an organic lifeform that evolved away from what the reapers intended (protheans altered the signal, etc., etc.)

Conduit: That is prothean tech. They may have it from the mass relays but we can't even be sure the relays are indeed reaper tech.

Reaper IFF: That went rather bad for the cerberus guys there (all were husks).

Thanix cannon: Extrected from a destroyed reaper (Sovereign) So no indoctrination

EDI: We don't know the extend of reaper tech used there but it also seems to be derived from Sovereign wreckange

Object Rho: Uh, that ended REALLY badly, didn't it?

Note: You need active reaper tech for it to be dangerous. Passive components can be used/studied. However, whenever something was still in working order, things went south rather quickly.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Can something that powerful, which is presumably quite large, be moved that easily?

'Easily' is relative. Nearly all things in unexplored dark space are effectively impossible to detect or discover. It could be the world's biggest duck if found, but all it has to do is avoid detection by staying away from where anyone else is likely to be looking.

I mean, if it took it a day's preparation to move it into FTL speeds, simply a week (or more's) firing-distance from the target would be far more than would ever be needed.

Plus I find it hard to believe TIM wasn't telling the truth. Yeah, he might have been lying, but what are the chances a 65million year-old piece of technology was still functional?

Why would it need to be 'still functional'? Why can't it simply be repaired?

It's a mass accelerator canon. The thing that's effectively what every Shepard, every warship, and every gun in the Mass Effect universe uses. It's as alien to our technology as the space shuttle carrier is to us: it's big, but it isn't magical.

[Dave of Canada]

MrFob wrote...

Keepers: unclear if it is even reaper tech. Probably an organic lifeform that evolved away from what the reapers intended (protheans altered the signal, etc., etc.)

Keepers are Reaper pawns created with their tech, similar to Collectors but with a different function. The Protheans, upon studying and understanding more about them, were able to alter the signal and thereby make the Keepers useless in their plans.

Studying the Keepers [Reapers] helped stop the cycle (for a while).

Conduit: That is prothean tech. They may have it from the mass relays but we can't even be sure the relays are indeed reaper tech.

The Relays are indeed Reaper tech, their entire plans are built around them (shut down the relays so nobody can travel anywhere). The Protheans, studying them, managed to built the Conduit and it served it's purpose in stopping Sovereign.

Reaper IFF: That went rather bad for the cerberus guys there (all were husks).

But through it's use, the Reapers and Collectors were stopped in their plan. A handful of dead men who lost their lives to save countless more.

Thanix cannon: Extrected from a destroyed reaper (Sovereign) So no indoctrination

It's still Reaper tech that was reverse engineered to counter them.

EDI: We don't know the extend of reaper tech used there but it also seems to be derived from Sovereign wreckange

This too.

Object Rho: Uh, that ended REALLY badly, didn't it?

Made the scientists create the asteroid that would stop the Reapers from arriving in the galaxy, buying Shepard and company some time to prepare for the inevitable invasion.

[Dean_the_Young]

MrFob wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?

It's about active reaper tech:
Keepers: unclear if it is even reaper tech. Probably an organic lifeform that evolved away from what the reapers intended (protheans altered the signal, etc., etc.)

The Keepers are Reaper designed organic constructs designed to work with and for other Reaper technology. The variations were induced later by studying the Keepers.

Conduit: That is prothean tech. They may have it from the mass relays but we can't even be sure the relays are indeed reaper tech.

Er, yes. We can.

The Mass Relays are the purest example of Reaper tech there is: not only is it the actual proof that convinces the galaxy the Protheans weren't first, it's actually the single greatest Reaper artifact we were ever meant to find.

Reaper IFF: That went rather bad for the cerberus guys there (all were husks).

And went very well for Cerberus and the galaxy as a whole.

Thanix cannon: Extrected from a destroyed reaper (Sovereign) So no indoctrination

The Derilect Reaper was destroyed. Nor did the Thanix outcome only come because the debris was (maybe) incapable of indoctrination.

Object Rho: Uh, that ended REALLY badly, didn't it?

It ended with a galaxy saved (for the moment).

Note: You need active reaper tech for it to be dangerous. Passive components can be used/studied. However, whenever something was still in working order, things went south rather quickly.

Active is irrelevant: the only Reaper technology that indoctrinates is Reaper technology with indoctrination features. The only Reaper tech with cyber-warfare viruses is cyber-warfare aspects. And so on.

The Derilect Reaper is actually the textbook case of inactive Reaper technology: no active nanotechnology, no higher functions, no deliberate intent or will.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well, here's a question, if it can be used in the way you are describing then how come the Reapers took it out?

...why wouldn't they?

They were Reaping. It was an obstacle. QED?

I doubt a species smart enough to engineer such a potent weapon (even if it is just a cannon on a larger scale) didn't think to use it in the way you describe. It would appear they fired it and the Reapers quickly tracked the shot back to its origin and wiped them out.

They fired at a Reaper, which is for all intents and purposes a short-distance tactical target: it moves, it evades, it needs to be targetted despite light-lag.

Aiming for a moving target requires proximity for reliability. Aiming for a planet just requires celestial mechanics.

Then again one wonders why the derelict Reaper was there at all. Why didn't Reapers dispose of it? Why didn't they dispose of the weapon that killed it? None of it makes sense.

It makes quite a bit of sense if you consider 'limitations' and risk-managment-vs-likely cost. The Derilect Reaper was only capable of making any signficant distance following a long sequence of mutually-dependent happenings, and even then it's ultimate effect detrimental to the Reapers depends on another sequences of mutually-dependent happenings... and if the Reapers really were moving towards the galaxy throughout ME2, then it's only relevance against the Reapers as a whole is in so much that it possibly allows us to take advantage of the Base. Otherwise, it's pretty much irrelevant to the grand scale of things.

[MrFob]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]MrFob wrote...

[quote]CaptainZaysh wrote...

...except for the keepers, the conduit, the Reaper IFF, the Thanix cannon, EDI, and Object Rho.

Did I miss any?[/quote]

It's about active reaper tech:
Keepers: unclear if it is even reaper tech. Probably an organic lifeform that evolved away from what the reapers intended (protheans altered the signal, etc., etc.)[/quote]The Keepers are Reaper designed organic constructs designed to work with and for other Reaper technology. The variations were induced later by studying the Keepers.
[/quote]
No, If we asume that we can believe Vigil, the keepers evolved by themselves over many cycles to be distinct from reaper tech and only respond to a certain signal, a signal that ten could be altered by the protheans.
[quote]
[quote]
Conduit: That is prothean tech. They may have it from the mass relays but we can't even be sure the relays are indeed reaper tech.[/quote]Er, yes. We can.

The Mass Relays are the purest example of Reaper tech there is: not only is it the actual proof that convinces the galaxy the Protheans weren't first, it's actually the single greatest Reaper artifact we were ever meant to find.

[/quote]
No we can't: Of course they are older than the protheans, so are bacteria, that doesn't mean they are reapers. Sovereign says the relays are reaper tech, but there is no proof of that. They might be even older than the reapers themselves and therefore they do not have indoctrination tech in them.
[quote]
[quote]
Reaper IFF: That went rather bad for the cerberus guys there (all were husks).[/quote]And went very well for Cerberus and the galaxy as a whole.
[/quote]
The point here is that the actual study went bad.
[quote]

[quote]
Thanix cannon: Extrected from a destroyed reaper (Sovereign) So no indoctrination[/quote]The Derilect Reaper was destroyed. Nor did the Thanix outcome only come because the debris was (maybe) incapable of indoctrination.
[/quote]The derilict reaper was not blown up, it was damaged. However it still had an active ME core (until Shep comes along and makes a mess of it). Sovereign was blown to smitherines before people took bits and peaces from it.
[quote]
[quote]
Object Rho: Uh, that ended REALLY badly, didn't it?[/quote]It ended with a galaxy saved (for the moment).
[/quote]
And again,the point is hat the actual study turned into a whole base full of indoctrinated scientists.

[quote]
[quote]

Note: You need active reaper tech for it to be dangerous. Passive components can be used/studied. However, whenever something was still in working order, things went south rather quickly.[/quote]Active is irrelevant: the only Reaper technology that indoctrinates is Reaper technology with indoctrination features. The only Reaper tech with cyber-warfare viruses is cyber-warfare aspects. And so on.

The Derilect Reaper is actually the textbook case of inactive Reaper technology: no active nanotechnology, no higher functions, no deliberate intent or will.

[/quote]
The derilict reaper is still active (see the glowing ME core). However, I of course agree that you do need indoctrination specific technology to make it all dangerous. According to the data we have at the moment though, pretty much every reaper as well as their artifacts have that kind of tech build into them. It is only if you extract specific parts (like the thanix or EDIs routines) that you can avoid it. In order to do that however, first you need to destroy/inactivate/eliminate everything else around it.
(hope I managed the quotes right)

[Saaziel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saaziel wrote...


So how would you measure the merit of speculations and weigh hypotheticals prior to actual testing ?

Basic risk management, of course.

How likely is a factor?
How serious is a factor?
Is it possible to decrease the likelyhood of a factor occuring? If so, what does the likelyhood change to?
Is it possible to mitigate the severity of a factor? If so, what does the severity change to?

All these seem arbitrary at best. Likelyhood & seriousness are subjective when applied to anything but maths. And then only in terms of likelyhood.

Not to mention the fact that we're interested in is gauging the merit of speculations; Its tautologically flawed to add a possibility to increase or decrease a set of factors who's possibility we're trying to establish in the first place. Moreover we'd have to gauge those possibilities as well.

I honestly don't know how this would work, you'll have to provide me with an example , preferably from the Mass effect universe. Let's set this with Reaper tech since its what's being debated. In the mean time , I've posted what i can make of it. It's not meant to be sarcastic , but your reply wasn't thorough enough.

-How likely is a Factor ?
"How likely is it that the collector base contains Reaper tech?"
  I'd say 9, or nearly assured.

-How serious is a Factor ? 
"How serious is the Reaper tech?"
 lets say 7, extremely serious. (If "serious" means Valuable)

-Is it possible to decrease the likelihood of a factor occuring ?
"Is it possible to increase the likelihood of Reaper tech inside"
 0, the question doesn't apply here.

-Is it possible to mitigate the severity of a factor?
"Is it possible to mitigate the severity of the Reaper tech?"
 0 , The question doesn't apply here.

------

-How likely is a Factor ?
"How likely is Indoctrination if the base is given to Cerberus?"
  I'd say 7 , or very much so.

-How serious is a Factor ? 
"How serious is Indoctrination?"
 lets say 9 , incredibly serious.

-Is it possible to decrease the likelihood of a factor occuring ?
"Is it possible to decrease the likelihood of Indoctrination occuring?"
 I'd go with 5 , Theoritically. (Again this is ,it self , speculative at best)

-Is it possible to mitigate the severity of a factor?
"Is it possible to mitigate the severity of Indoctrination?"
 0 , its irreversible . lets say 5 for the operation in general , but again its only theoretical.

So how do we add this up , what do with do with this score , what's the next step? We compare this to an alternative Hypothetical or Speculation. Doesn't that leads us right back at the beginning? There is an immeasurably large number of factors to consider and compare, all of whom varies in importance from a subjective assessment.

I'll be frank ; I think you just Wikipedia'd something you thought was relevant but isn't. I can see it working strictly for maths ,but it doesn't apply here.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saaziel wrote...
I don't recall the details , but neither relates or mention the involvement of Reaper tech (But its been a while so ...) .So...)

it's okay to bring up Cerberus failures in the context of Reaper tech and if they should keep it, but not in the sense of addressing whether those failures were actually failures.

Right.

I'd be interested in addressing whether those failures are failures , but first I'd have to know if they (The dossier & Akuze) have any relevance to Reaper tech since this is the topic of discussion. Does the Shadow Broker's Cerberus dossier mention operation involving Reaper tech ? What about Akuze?

I'm sorry but context is important; I'd trust my kid nephew with a nerf gun , not a loaded assault rifle. Similarly I'd trust Cerberus with political assassinations or subversion , but not with Reaper tech.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General success flows to the people who hold responsibility, the same as the responsibility flows to those responsible for failure. Individual cells and TIM certainly do have claims (of various types) to Cerberus victories.

Even then, general success , as you put it , doesn't warrant trust in matters specific.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Heck, why do you make univeral judgements about an organization you know barely any history of their projects?

Saaziel wrote...

Do you mean "You": Me , "You": proxy/canon Sheppard , or "You" : Me as Sheppard ?

Yes.

By default a judgement would have to be universal if not narrowed to a particular instance. So far as I've described my opinion as relating to Sheppard as a player/avatar , wherein he/she's instrumental to the completion of the ME2 . Considering that without a player ,a game is irrelevant ; I'd say i was correct in making this judgement.

P.S. Sorry for the lenght which I'm sure is horrifying.

Modifié par Saaziel, 02 juin 2011 - 03:05 .

[HunterX6]

Saphra Deden wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

Call it a hunch, but I'm guessing you disapprove of destroying the base?

Very much so. It is a golden opportunity to study our enemy. The best opportunity yet. It is foolish to just blow it up.

*assuming control of this body* 

[Bluko]

I dunno I figure using/studying Reaper technology usually isn't the best idea. Since like you know that's exactly what the Reapers want us to do. But whatever.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saaziel wrote...

Its from the game , not me. I personnally don't bother with it.

Right, Shepard says that in-game if you keep the base too.

Which leaves the Base in T.I.M.'s hands.

Like i said.

Which is how things were throughout ME2 and resulted in a successful Collector Base mission.

I must have misunderstood what you meant then.

I agree that destroying the Derelict on sight wouldn't have permitted access to the Omega 4 relay. That said the issue i brought up was on the Speculative nature of your argument. The : "What if we'd destroy the Derelict prior to acquiring the IFF " holds no water.

If the collector base was only , means to an end (defeating the Reapers ) . And if Reaper tech is safe to research , if done properly . It follows that the Derelict was the best opportunity to research/ formulate how to defeat the Reapers. Going through the Omega 4 relay , and therefore the IFF , are irrelevant since we have/had a better opportunity.

The fact the Cerberus squandered that opportunity only builds a stronger case against leaving the Base in its/their /his hands. And as Moiaussi pointed out; Cerberus went out of their way to conceal the Derelict , actually impairing proper research.

They knew about the Reaper IFF because of that study.  The Alliance tried their hand at researching Reaper tech in the Arrival DLC.  They did no better so that point is moot.  And despite the indoctrination, had the IFF not been found and just destroyed instead, the Collectors would not have been stopped and getting through the Omega 4 would've been impossible.  That's why not destroying it holds water because the Collector Base brings up the same issue.  If everyone destroyed everything Reaper just because it was Reaper or could carry indoctrination or because it did something evil, the Collectors would've taken the Earth.

Adding stickers to something doesn't appropriate you (Not "You" you , "You": anyone) its worth.

So a Japanese car is not a Japanese car if every part of the car isn't their own original idea?  The SR2 was Cerberus's ship and it was superior to the SR1.  Plus, Cerberus had a hand in the original SR1's creation as well.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bluko wrote...

I dunno I figure using/studying Reaper technology usually isn't the best idea. Since like you know that's exactly what the Reapers want us to do. But whatever.

They want you to use the technology of the Relays... and only the technology of the Relays.  I think you read too far into that.  Remember that this was supposed to have been over with Sovereign's attack on the Citadel, it failed because someone actually had experience fighting the Reapers (the Protheans).  The Collector Base, EDI, Thanix cannon, etc. are all things the Reapers did not intend people using.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[Katamariguy]

For me, the dangers are worth the risks.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Fighting or stopping the Reapers has never worked. Clearly we shouldn't even try then.

We should try but should be prepared to surrender.

What point is there to surrender?  To have a chance at being turned into the next Collectors?  Or maybe if the reapers were really feeling generous they would turn your corpses into another reaper?  I suppose they might at least grant a quick death, but that could already be done without the reapers help.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So that the legacy of our species continues on as a Reaper instead of being driven to total extinction.

  Can't say thats better than being completely extinct, but thats just me.

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I won't let fear compromise who I am and so that is why I am too afraid to study Reaper tech, because it is dangerous stuff.

I won't let forumites misrepresent my opinion. Very, very few Paragons or paragades that I've talked to actually believe in that line. There was a whole thread dedicated to it a while back and very few agreed with it or thought it was reasonable.

The vast majority of people I've seen who blow the base do it because TIM is the only option of recipients. You may disagree with our assessment of TIM and Cerberus or our assessment of the risks but that is a difference of opinion whereas anyone who blows the base for the reason that Shepard says is just being blindly idealistic.

[SkittlesKat96]

 Good can come from the Collector base sure but I still didn't risk it. Indoctrination is a terrible terrible thing. The Rachni, Saren and Dr. Kenson were three interesting examples of indoctrination and we know how badly things almost went with them.

[sponge56]

I think there is a definite distinction between studying reaper tech which can potentially indoctrinate (like the base, derelict reaper, object rho) and simply using certain other types of technology, because I swear the thanix canon isn't part of sovereign, it just is a copy of the tech which is in sovereigns weapons