43 réponses à ce sujet

[Oswin]

Pretty sure I'm doing it wrong but I quite like Carver (for some reason him constantly hating on me for being so much more awesome amused me) but I really hate Bethany.
So for me I like to see Carver as a Grey Warden (I feel it suits him, he seems to have the same level of humour in him as Stroud.)
and Bethany goes to either the Circle (she seemed happier there than as a Warden) or dead (when I'm feeling bitter and hateful and fed up of her know-it-all voice.)
I am not a good sibling...

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...


It doesn't matter to me whether she willingly gave herself up or was discovered and arrested; I don't care if the Maker himself came to Thedas and demanded Bethany to be turned over, it's ridiculous that Hawke is going to do nothing when his little sister is going to be taken away to the same place where a Harrowed mage was illegally made tranquil. I wouldn't let my apostate sister get arrested by an oppressive regime that I know has broken the law in regards to mages, I'd get out of Kirkwall.

and then you'd be protecting her because she's a mage. The very thing she hated. Her magic caused her family to give up so much for her. That's what Hawke understood.

Bethany can hate Hawke while she's alive and with free will rather than turned into an emotionless puppet, which is precisely what Hawke risked by letting Cullen take her away.

She's dying very slowly as a Grey Warden, which leaves her in a very dark state of mind. But she eventually comes to grips with it and realizes that Hawke did the only thing he could do in that situation to keep her alive.

Also on an unrelated note: I liked her GW robes more than her Circle robes.

Bethany would be alive and outside the grasp of an authority that has previously made a Harrowed mage tranquil.

and on the run. again. the very thing she hated.

And Bethany wouldn't be in danger of Ser Alrik, Ser Kerras, and the templars like them in the Kirkwall Circle.

Considering you could've killed Karras before the expedition, you kill Alrik, and the people who agree with them, I don't see them as being much of an issue.

Think of it as you protecting your sister while at the same time respecting her decision to be a Circle Mage. When I found out Alrik was illegally making mages Tranquil so he could rape them, I roleplayed my Hawke to thinking that that was why he was eyeing her (something he didn't know but I did since it was my 2nd playthrough). So, he wanted the sick b*stard dead.

People die in Kirkwall all the time, like the templars killed by Hawke in "Midnight Meeting." And I wish Hawke could leave Kirkwall sooner rather than later.

The Midnight Meeting wasn't a Templar sanctioned order. It was a lieutenant acting outside of the Order even though Hawke defended himself. There was nothing to connect their deaths to Hawke.

With Cullen, he was there by order of the Order (haha that sounds funny). So, there would've been a connection to Hawke.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and then you'd be protecting her because she's a mage. The very thing she hated. Her magic caused her family to give up so much for her. That's what Hawke understood.

Bethany would be alive and safe away from Kirkwall and out of the reach of the templars, which is more important to me. Hawke should have dealt with Cullen, and could have gotten out of Kirkwall. Abandoning her to Cullen and the Order made me lose all respect for Hawke as a big brother and a (fictional) human being.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She's dying very slowly as a Grey Warden, which leaves her in a very dark state of mind. But she eventually comes to grips with it and realizes that Hawke did the only thing he could do in that situation to keep her alive.

Also on an unrelated note: I liked her GW robes more than her Circle robes.

Agreed on the GW robes.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and on the run. again. the very thing she hated.

If Bethany is alive and out of the reach of the templars who made Karl tranquil illegally, I honestly don't care.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Considering you could've killed Karras before the expedition, you kill Alrik, and the people who agree with them, I don't see them as being much of an issue.

Hawke kills Alrik three years later, which is three years where Bethany could have risked suffering the same fate as Alain, who is attacked regardless of whether Kerras is alive or not as it's the implied reason he gives for siding with Thrask in "Best Served Cold."

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Think of it as you protecting your sister while at the same time respecting her decision to be a Circle Mage. When I found out Alrik was illegally making mages Tranquil so he could rape them, I roleplayed my Hawke to thinking that that was why he was eyeing her (something he didn't know but I did since it was my 2nd playthrough). So, he wanted the sick b*stard dead.

I gave up being a rogue after that scene. There wasn't enough WTF in the entire world for me to grasp how they could write that scene that way... I decided to stick with being an apostate, but honestly have been waiting for the story bugs to be rectified before getting back to DA2.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

With Cullen, he was there by order of the Order (haha that sounds funny). So, there would've been a connection to Hawke.

Hawke shouldn't care. The man has the Murder Knife. He should have said to Cullen, "this is as close as I get," and delivered murder knife justice.

[TobiTobsen]

It doesn't happen often but I'm on Lobsel's side here.

Hawke dedicated his whole life to protecting Bethany. If he just watches when Cullen and the other templars take her away his life's work, everything he has done untill this moment, is all for naught.

For once it's about what Hawke and the family wants, not what Bethany wants/needs. Hawke&family don't need their sister/daughter in the most oppressive circle in all of Thedas. They don't need her next to Templars that make you tranquil for sneezing too loud or just because you look good.

If I had any choice in that situation I would have fought Cullen. I already killed Ser Karras and his whole patrol and nobody cared. Hawke fought a whole templar patol for some random mages and won't fight two of them for his sister? Just because she don't want to cause any more problems? Sorry sis, but no.

[Flashflame58]

Bethany's happiest in the Circle and Carver isn't a complete a** in the Wardens. If you make Bethany a Warden you can tell she is really unhappy and Carver is less angry if he joins the Wardens.

[sonoko]

Somehow I agree with both LobselVith8 and The Ethereal Writer Redux . I think Bethany is wrong when she voluntarily goes to the Circle, but I prefer for her this path since only after spending several years in the Gallows she begins to value her freedom and understands why her family went to such great length to protect her from templars. It's a hard but important lesson for her.

[Nixter Shepard]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Carver: Grey Warden

Bethany: Circle mage

I find these the most appropriate

[FiachSidhe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and
then you'd be protecting her because she's a mage. The very thing she
hated. Her magic caused her family to give up so much for her. That's
what Hawke understood.

Bethany would be alive and safe
away from Kirkwall and out of the reach of the templars, which is more
important to me. Hawke should have dealt with Cullen, and could have
gotten out of Kirkwall. Abandoning her to Cullen and the Order made me
lose all respect for Hawke as a big brother and a (fictional) human
being.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She's
dying very slowly as a Grey Warden, which leaves her in a very dark
state of mind. But she eventually comes to grips with it and realizes
that Hawke did the only thing he could do in that situation to keep her
alive.

Also on an unrelated note: I liked her GW robes more than her Circle robes.

Agreed on the GW robes.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and on the run. again. the very thing she hated.

If Bethany is alive and out of the reach of the templars who made Karl tranquil illegally, I honestly don't care.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Considering
you could've killed Karras before the expedition, you kill Alrik, and
the people who agree with them, I don't see them as being much of an
issue.

Hawke kills Alrik three years later, which is
three years where Bethany could have risked suffering the same fate as
Alain, who is attacked regardless of whether Kerras is alive or not as
it's the implied reason he gives for siding with Thrask in "Best Served
Cold."

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Think of
it as you protecting your sister while at the same time respecting her
decision to be a Circle Mage. When I found out Alrik was illegally
making mages Tranquil so he could rape them, I roleplayed my Hawke to
thinking that that was why he was eyeing her (something he didn't know
but I did since it was my 2nd playthrough). So, he wanted the sick
b*stard dead.

I gave up being a rogue after that scene.
There wasn't enough WTF in the entire world for me to grasp how they
could write that scene that way... I decided to stick with being an
apostate, but honestly have been waiting for the story bugs to be
rectified before getting back to DA2.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

With Cullen, he was there by order of the Order (haha that sounds funny). So, there would've been a connection to Hawke.

Hawke
shouldn't care. The man has the Murder Knife. He should have said to
Cullen, "this is as close as I get," and delivered murder knife
justice.

Safe? In the Wardens? She spends her time in the
circle teachiing children magic and enjoys her time doing so. She still
has contact with her family and gets to practice magic without
constantly looking over her shoulder and running.

She may be safe
from specific templars but as a warden, she has no contact with her
family that cares abut more than anything, she has a shortened, violence
and pain filled lifespan, constant nightmares where she sees through
the minds of Darkspawn, she's sent to the Deep Roads on a regular basis,
and the threat of death in the most violent way possible is a regular
occurance. There is nothing safe about it.

You would have killed Cullen, but the sister you love so much asked you to stop. Because she's thinking more clearly.

Bethany
couldn't stand putting her mother through that stress again. Leandra
ran from Kirkwall once and gave up her status/wealth for love, she then
escaped that home when the very reason for that sacrifice was butcherd
by demons, back to the town she ran from, only to be forced to live in
poverty, the last thing she needs at her age, is to run from Kirkwall
again after seeing more people murdered, due to her children.

Modifié par FiachSidhe, 01 juin 2011 - 11:42 .

[FiachSidhe]

*double post*

Modifié par FiachSidhe, 01 juin 2011 - 11:42 .

[LobselVith8]

FiachSidhe wrote...

Safe? In the Wardens? 

What are you talking about? I was talking about fighting Cullen and the other templar accompanying him to keep Bethany safe from the Gallows. The fact that Hawke is so reactive in that scene and does nothing to protect his little sister from the templars is ridiculous.

FiachSidhe wrote...

She spends her time in the circle teachiing children magic and enjoys her time doing so.

And it's only by luck that she doesn't end up tranquil like Karl or raped like Alain. Considering that Hawke is well aware of the conditions of the Kirkwall Circle, why does he do absolutely nothing to keep her out of this toxic enviornment?

FiachSidhe wrote...

She still has contact with her family and gets to practice magic without constantly looking over her shoulder and running.

Except when Meredith invoked the Right of Annulment, of course.

FiachSidhe wrote...

She may be safe from specific templars but as a warden, she has no contact with her family that cares abut more than anything, she has a shortened, violence and pain filled lifespan, constant nightmares where she sees through the minds of Darkspawn, she's sent to the Deep Roads on a regular basis, and the threat of death in the most violent way possible is a regular occurance. There is nothing safe about it.

You would have killed Cullen, but the sister you love so much asked you to stop. Because she's thinking more clearly.

I'm not talking about the Wardens, I'm talking about putting as much distance between Bethany and the Hellmouth as possible.

FiachSidhe wrote...

Bethany couldn't stand putting her mother through that stress again. Leandra ran from Kirkwall once and gave up her status/wealth for love, she then escaped that home when the very reason for that sacrifice was butcherd
by demons, back to the town she ran from, only to be forced to live in poverty, the last thing she needs at her age, is to run from Kirkwall again after seeing more people murdered, due to her children.

Yet if Hawke took Bethany and Leandra away from Kirkwall, Quentin wouldn't have killed Leandra. I originally liked rogue Hawke because I got an apostate POV from Bethany that I didn't get as an illegal mage Hawke, but I couldn't accept Hawke letting his sister get taken by the templars and doing nothing about it. Hawke doesn't even take Cullen to task about it in Act II.

[FiachSidhe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

FiachSidhe wrote...

Safe? In the Wardens? 

What are you talking about? I was talking about fighting Cullen and the other templar accompanying him to keep Bethany safe from the Gallows. The fact that Hawke is so reactive in that scene and does nothing to protect his little sister from the templars is ridiculous.

FiachSidhe wrote...

She spends her time in the circle teachiing children magic and enjoys her time doing so.

And it's only by luck that she doesn't end up tranquil like Karl or raped like Alain. Considering that Hawke is well aware of the conditions of the Kirkwall Circle, why does he do absolutely nothing to keep her out of this toxic enviornment?

FiachSidhe wrote...

She still has contact with her family and gets to practice magic without constantly looking over her shoulder and running.

Except when Meredith invoked the Right of Annulment, of course.

FiachSidhe wrote...

She may be safe from specific templars but as a warden, she has no contact with her family that cares abut more than anything, she has a shortened, violence and pain filled lifespan, constant nightmares where she sees through the minds of Darkspawn, she's sent to the Deep Roads on a regular basis, and the threat of death in the most violent way possible is a regular occurance. There is nothing safe about it.

You would have killed Cullen, but the sister you love so much asked you to stop. Because she's thinking more clearly.

I'm not talking about the Wardens, I'm talking about putting as much distance between Bethany and the Hellmouth as possible.

FiachSidhe wrote...

Bethany couldn't stand putting her mother through that stress again. Leandra ran from Kirkwall once and gave up her status/wealth for love, she then escaped that home when the very reason for that sacrifice was butcherd
by demons, back to the town she ran from, only to be forced to live in poverty, the last thing she needs at her age, is to run from Kirkwall again after seeing more people murdered, due to her children.

Yet if Hawke took Bethany and Leandra away from Kirkwall, Quentin wouldn't have killed Leandra. I originally liked rogue Hawke because I got an apostate POV from Bethany that I didn't get as an illegal mage Hawke, but I couldn't accept Hawke letting his sister get taken by the templars and doing nothing about it. Hawke doesn't even take Cullen to task about it in Act II.

The subject of this thread, is which of the two options is better, Forgive me if that was not your intent to declare the Circle as the preferable fate. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize.

It's not luck. The writers wrote it that way. Luck or not, it never happened. So it's moot. I can just as easily say she could have been killed by an ogre in the Deep Roads as a Warden.

The Right of Annulment is at the end of the game. She could have stayed at home and be in just as much danger at that point couldn't she? Nevermind that at that point she leaves the circle and rejoins you? I mean at that point EVERYONE is in crazy danger.

He doesn't take Cullen to task because Bethany tells her family that she's happy. Why would he? Bethnay is a grown woman, not a little girl. If she wanted out she'd tell Hawke. Culen is one of the few Templars that believes mages should be protected. Why would Hawke attack one of the only Templars who believes that Meredith is leading everyone to a dark place?

Hell Cullen questions the invoking of the Right of Annulment, and even sides with Hawke against Meredith, after telling her to stand down.

Given Cullen's attitude, and interaction with Hawke, it wouldn't surprise me if he kept an extra watch over Bethany himself. You can say it was luck that spared her from danger, I can say that if it came to that Cullen would have contacted you, or protected her himself. Who know, it's all hypothetical.

She may be in danger in the Circle, but everyone in Kirkwall is in danger. She'd be in worse danger in the Wardens, where she does things completely agaiinst her nature and hardens her into a cold warrior. Not just physical danger. Not potential , maybe danger either.
She may have been in danger, but she'd be in danger no matter what. She's at least be doing something she loves in the Circle.

Taking her away from Kirkwall, do you think Bethany would agree? Pack up Mom, we're on the run again. Bethany wouldn't leave her Mom, and wouldn't run from Kirkwall either. You could fight Cullen, make yourself public enemy number one, and eliminate any chance of making a difference.
You can kill Templars off at the Wounded Coast, and have it covered up. You can't just kill a bunch in your home, during an arrest and write it off as easily.

If Hawke could see the future well enough to witness his mother's murder, he could have simply prevented the murder before it happened. So using information he didn't have when he made the choices he did is unreasonable.

But we're not talking about what could have been, we're talking about what ended up happening, and what happened was Bethany being way better off in the Circle.

Modifié par FiachSidhe, 02 juin 2011 - 02:06 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

The subject of this thread, is which of the two options is better, Forgive me if that was not your intent to declare the Circle as the preferable fate. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize. [/quote]

Nothing to apologize for. I provided my opinion earlier in the page, and Ethereal and I were having a friendly discussion over it.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

It's not luck. The writers wrote it that way. Luck or not, it never happened. So it's moot. I can just as easily say she could have been killed by an ogre in the Deep Roads as a Warden. [/quote]

I pretty much agreed that the life of a Circle mage a page earlier seems better, but the problem I have is with the way Hawke acts in the scene. I think it would have made more sense if she was already gone; having him there, and doing nothing, makes him such an inferior protagonist to me.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

The Right of Annulment is at the end of the game. She could have stayed at home and be in just as much danger at that point couldn't she? Nevermind that at that point she leaves the circle and rejoins you? I mean at that point EVERYONE is in crazy danger. [/quote]

Mages will always be in danger living in the Circle Tower. I wouldn't wish the life of a Circle mage on my worst enemy. Getting whipped 30 times because they dared to speak to a civilians, running the risk of rape and getting made tranquil illegally, and I can't understand why Hawke did nothing when his baby sister ran these risks when Cullen was taking her away.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

He doesn't take Cullen to task because Bethany tells her family that she's happy. Why would he? [/quote]

Because Bethany was at risk of getting raped, tortured, or getting made tranquil. If she became another Karl or Alain, that would have transpired because Hawke did nothing to stop it when he had the chance.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

Bethnay is a grown woman, not a little girl. If she wanted out she'd tell Hawke. Culen is one of the few Templars that believes mages should be protected. Why would Hawke attack one of the only Templars who believes that Meredith is leading everyone to a dark place? [/quote]

Cullen is the templar who says mages can't be treated like people and are weapons. And Hawke should attack and kill any templar who tries to imprison Bethany in the Gallows when he knows full well that she could be the next Karl.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

Hell Cullen questions the invoking of the Right of Annulment, and even sides with Hawke against Meredith, after telling her to stand down. [/quote]

No, Cullen questions Meredith when she specifically tries to kill Hawke, not when she orders the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children for something they didn't do.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

Given Cullen's attitude, and interaction with Hawke, it wouldn't surprise me if he kept an extra watch over Bethany himself. You can say it was luck that spared her from danger, I can say that if it came to that Cullen would have contacted you, or protected her himself. Who know, it's all hypothetical. [/quote]

The same Cullen who threatens Hawke over keeping an apostate hidden from the Chantry?

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

She may be in danger in the Circle, but everyone in Kirkwall is in danger. She'd be in worse danger in the Wardens, where she does things completely agaiinst her nature and hardens her into a cold warrior. Not just physical danger. Not potential , maybe danger either. [/quote]

Bethany would be better off if Hawke took her and get the frak out of Kirkwall.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

She may have been in danger, but she'd be in danger no matter what. She's at least be doing something she loves in the Circle. [/quote]

That must explain why Bethany is so resentful when she meets Hawke again at the end of Act II as a Circle mage.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

Taking her away from Kirkwall, do you think Bethany would agree? Pack up Mom, we're on the run again. Bethany wouldn't leave her Mom, and wouldn't run from Kirkwall either. You could fight Cullen, make yourself public enemy number one, and eliminate any chance of making a difference. [/quote]

Would she agree? Likely not. Would I care? No. You know why? Because she wouldn't live in a dictatorship where she could get violated or lose their humanity because mages are under the thumb of the templars.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

You can kill Templars off at the Wounded Coast, and have it covered up. You can't just kill a bunch in your home, during an arrest and write it off as easily. [/quote]

Hawke killed templars a block away from his mansion in "Midnight Meeting," and it was apparently no big deal.

[quote]FiachSidhe wrote...

If Hawke could see the future well enough to witness his mother's murder, he could have simply prevented the murder before it happened. So using information he didn't have when he made the choices he did is unreasonable.

But we're not talking about what could have been, we're talking about what ended up happening, and what happened was Bethany being way better off in the Circle. [/quote]

Except in the pro-templar Hawke runs where the protagonist lets Meredith kill Bethany as a Circle mage...

[Urazz]

Carver seemed happier as a Grey Warden and managed to get out of his sibling's shadow for the most part while Bethany seemed happier as a Circle Mage and learned why mages try to escape the Circle and fight the templars/chantry.

[Sajuro]

Carver: in a shallow grave because my mage hawke is a dick

Bethany: with the grey wardens

[Vit246]

Bethany: the Circle. I like to roleplay Hawke as reasonably certain that she'll be relatively safe from the Templars, given his reputation in dealing with them, along with bribes from the Amell fortune and Varric's connections. I doubt she's even content being a grey warden, it being a death sentence with a horrible end fighting darkspawn.

Carver: unable to decide. Death in the deep roads is too easy. My mage Hawke would not like him in the templars feeding his anti-mage feelings. And there's the lyrium addiction. On the other hand, being a grey warden is such a death sentence. But Carver totally embraces it, and serves a useful purpose.

[Fukairi]

Killing them both as early as possible. Best outcome for me, hated the whiny asses : D

[Huntress]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Carver: Grey Wardens
Bethany: Grey Wardens

I like them both with the Grey Wardens. Carver finally matures and Bethany gets a hardened outlook on the world and I found it an interesting arch. She goes from being protected to doing the protecting.

On the flip side, they get to die young and never propagate Hawke genes....

Wait a second...Ryzaki you're a genius!!

What about you're hawk? Can't he or she have any childrens or he/she doesn't count?:blink:You're hawk probably unable to procreate ( if thats you're wish) but carver in the other hand left a girl in Lothering, she might be carring a little hawk!
Bethany (maybe) is able to with a none warden ( friend) hehe but she can't raise the child herself.

My Hawk's can't allow Bethany go to the circle not after everything that happens in kirkwall... Not a chance, rather see her free from templars and chantry rules and that means been a Gray Warden, But yea I have 1 Carver templar and he isn't very happy of been 1:lol:

Modifié par Huntress, 02 juin 2011 - 06:52 .

[themonty72]

Bethany as a Grey Warden. Carver didn't like him at one bit, didn't effect me when he was a templar I was like so what. All i know I wasnt taking him to the deep roads so he could become a warden. Bethany earned that title.

[Foolsfolly]

Dead's the best ending.

Other than that, Carver as a Templar and Hawke siding Pro-Templar. Then Carver still has a job and isn't on the run due to Hawke's actions when Hawke up and disappears without a word.

Bethany as a Grey Warden. When Hawke's Pro-Mage a Circle Mage Bethany must be on the run by herself, something she's never been before, because Hawke disappears and leaves everyone but the Love Interest. So Bethany's pretty much screwed there and will likely die, go abomination, or get hunted down by the Templar who are not defeated and now independent of the Chantry.

Bethany the Circle Mage under the Pro-Templar story is either killed or tranquiled later.

As a Warden she's got a death sentence but she helps people, has a support network, has a dedicated group of skilled warriors there to watch her back. She's safe for the next 30 years before insanity and the Call end her life. But she's not free.

Of course she has no happy ending anyway. But I consider Warden to be a decent ending.

But they'd all suffer less if they died of corruption down in a Maker forsaken hole in the ground, especially Bethany who has no happy endings.