71 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Prove it.  I didn't see her make one hypocritical statement or take a hypocritical action in the entire game.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 juin 2011 - 02:17 .

[Feena.c]

*Head bend* Who says she's a hypocrite? She's not at all.

[jamesp81]

Feena.c wrote...

*Head bend* Who says she's a hypocrite? She's not at all.

I'm seeing it a lot in several places, but I don't have a list of screen names off the top of my head either.

[MisterJB]

Depends on how you define hypocrite, I guess. She claims to protect the innocent but is willing to butcher policeman who are just doing their jobs if they try to detain her.
However, since she admitted she follows the Code to the letter and it's the Code who forces Justicars to perform said violence upon the policeman, I wouldn't call her hypocrite.

[General User]

Samara is not a hypocrite, she is simply the product of a radically different (one might even say: alien) society.

I think a lot of the animosity towards Samara her stems from the fact that, as a Justicar, she and others of her Order, actually have superior or at least equal authority in asari society to that of any State or Government in matters of criminal justice.

People raised in a modern, human society are just so used to thinking of “the State” as the supreme institution in their society, that they have a hard time with the idea that asari society seems not to be organized that way.

[Alpha-Centuri]

She's basically a Judge from Judge Dredd.

To the OP:

I'm not going to cover all samara=hypocrite people with a blanket statement. However through my experience, alot of it seems that it stems from people not really considering that

A: If someone (who could be the nicest guy or gal ever) is ordered to do something that directly obstructs you from your job and they carry it out, they are an antagonist, not an innocent.

B: Modern society has socialized us to see cops as guys and gals just doing their jobs, and have supreme authority. Like General User said above, Asari society isn't structured in such a way.

Rough analogy, but I think it works. A U.S. Marshal (has jurisdiction in every state) is tracking a mass murderer. The person flees to Puerto Rico, and the U.S. marshal follows. Puerto Rican local officials detain the marshal, and the murderer is getting away. Failure isn't an option, or countless more will die, and you'll never find the murderer. What do you do as the marshal?

Marshal = Asari Justicar
Puerto Rico = Illium because it is not a state of the U.S., just a territory.

[jamesp81]

General User wrote...

Samara is not a hypocrite, she is simply the product of a radically different (one might even say: alien) society.

I think a lot of the animosity towards Samara her stems from the fact that, as a Justicar, she and others of her Order, actually have superior or at least equal authority in asari society to that of any State or Government in matters of criminal justice.

People raised in a modern, human society are just so used to thinking of “the State” as the supreme institution in their society, that they have a hard time with the idea that asari society seems not to be organized that way.

I hope most people in modern human societies don't think that.  I, for one, subscribe to the much older idea of the supremacy of the individual over the supremacy of the state.  But that's another thread.

But on the first part, I agree.  For whatever reason, the Asari have determined that the Justicar Order is an appropriate institution for their own people, and Samara is a stellar example of same said order, following it's Code to the letter regardless of the cost, both to herself and everyone else.  For whatever reason, the Asari are as a whole approve of this and allow it to continue.

I certainly wouldn't approve of such an institution for my own society, but if other societies vote on the matter, that's their business.  That's why I like Samara and her Code doesn't bother me.  Spectres are actually much worse.  Justicars may leave Asari space on occasion (it's very rare, per the codex, however) but they clearly understand that outside Asari space they enjoy no legal recognition.  Even when outside Asari space, however, their actions are still bound by a body of law (the Code).  Spectres, on the other hand, can go wherever they want and do anything they damned well please and NO ONE holds them accountable for it.  The Spectre system is ripe for abuse, a fact that was brought home fast and hard by Saren.  I would be surprised if the Justicars have even a small amount of corruption of power, and I can only imagine that a Justicar that abandoned her oath to the Code would be swiftly dealt with in the harshest of terms.  Spectres, on the other hand, can quite literally get away with murder and no one will do anything about it.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 juin 2011 - 05:34 .

[MisterJB]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...
A: If someone (who could be the nicest guy or gal ever) is ordered to do something that directly obstructs you from your job and they carry it out, they are an antagonist, not an innocent.

What if that someone is a Turian C-sec who just witnessed Samara gun down someone on the streets of the Citadel? Since he is a turian, he doesn't subscribe to the idea that Justicars are above the law so, it's his obligation to take Samara into custody just like it's Samara's obligation to gun down the corrupt and protect the innocent.
How is this turian not an innocent?

[jamesp81]

MisterJB wrote...

Alpha-Centuri wrote...
A: If someone (who could be the nicest guy or gal ever) is ordered to do something that directly obstructs you from your job and they carry it out, they are an antagonist, not an innocent.

What if that someone is a Turian C-sec who just witnessed Samara gun down someone on the streets of the Citadel? Since he is a turian, he doesn't subscribe to the idea that Justicars are above the law so, it's his obligation to take Samara into custody just like it's Samara's obligation to gun down the corrupt and protect the innocent.
How is this turian not an innocent?

Anecdotal evidence from Samara's recruitment suggests that she can be detained for one day and no more.  Especially since the Citadel is outside Asari space, I can only imagine she'd allow herself to be taken without violence for one day.  If the guy she shot had it coming, I doubt it'd be a problem (in many US states, deadly force is legally justified for self defense, defense of innocents, or even to stop a fleeing felon in some states.  If she shot some pirate, I doubt it'd take long for C-Sec to figure that out).

If C-Sec wanted to hold her for more than day, that's just what we call unfortunate.  C-Sec and Justicars both understand that their jobs are dangerous when they take their oaths and put on their uniforms.  So be it.  Her job is to protect the most innocents possible.  If C-Sec puts her in a position where fewer innocents die if she kills a few cops escaping and later stops a serial killer, her Code compels her to do it.

This example also, I think, hits upon one reason why Justicars almost never leave Asari space.  It frequently results in problems.  Other societies don't recognize the Justicar Order as having any legal authority, whereas they obviously do in Asari space.

Also, Justicars are not above the law in Asari space.  They are, in fact, enforcers of what the Founders of the US would call "Natural Law".  These are the rights and dignity individuals have by the fact that they are thinking, feeling beings.  The Founding Fathers of the US considered this Natural Law to exist independent of, and indeed existed before, any human government or civil authority, and that all people and groups, including the government are bound by said laws.  I think the Justicars probably have a different perception of Natural Law than good old Thomas Jefferson did, but it's mostly the same concept.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 juin 2011 - 05:50 .

[Labrev]

Just on example off the top of my head.

She wanted to kill Nihlus, a Spectre, for shooting an unarmed civilian. Something he is well within his right to do. She didn't provide us with a reason he did so, it is safe to assume that she doesn't know why he did. But she cries bloody murder and chases him for a week (or was it two?) because of her stupid code, possibly endangering people by sidetracking his mission if he was on council business, for something that Nihlus may have very well been justified in doing. Who knows, maybe her own code would have been OK with what he did if she knew. But she just acted on it since she saw him kill an unarmed civilian.

This same asari thinks its OK to kill any innocent civilians that stop her from pursuing her own investigation after one day of "incarceration." So yeah, that's just about how I define hypocrisy.

[General User]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
She wanted to kill Nihlus, a Spectre, for shooting an unarmed civilian. Something he is well within his right to do.She didn't provide us with a reason he did so, it is safe to assume that she doesn't know why he did. 

Nihlus has a right, in his capacity as a Spectre, to shoot people who he deems worthy of being shot. 
Samara has a duty, in her capacity as a Justicar, to shoot people who the Justicar Code deems worthy of being shot. 
This was a case where the rights of a Spectre conflicted with the duties of a Justicar.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
But she cries bloody murder and chases him for a week (or was it two?) because of her stupid code,

It was shooting an unarmed civilian; it was bloody murder, or at least bloody execution.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
possibly endangering people by sidetracking his mission if he was on council business, for something that Nihlus may have very well been justified in doing.

The Council and its Spectre's aren’t exactly (if you’ll forgive the term) paragons of virtue. Nihlus’s “mission” could just as easily been something nefarious. There's no way to know.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
 But she just acted on it since she saw him kill an unarmed civilian.

For military operatives, like the Spectres allegedly are, valid justifcations for intentionally killing unarmed civilians are...nonexistent

For a criminal justice system (like the Justicar Order), killing unarmed civilians is a part of the reason they exist.  That's what an execution is.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
This same asari thinks its OK to kill any innocent civilians that stop her from pursuing her own investigation after one day of "incarceration." So yeah, that's just about how I define hypocrisy.

If you’re referring to Detective Anaya (or other NAPD officers), she is a police officer, not a civilian. Also, given the position Justicars hold in asari society, and that Det. Anaya is fully aware that her detaining Samara will likely result in her own death, she is not innocent either.

Modifié par General User, 01 juin 2011 - 08:09 .

[Kabanya101]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

She's basically a Judge from Judge Dredd.

Judge Dredd is an awesome movie

And I wonder why everybody hates Samara, personally she was my favorite chracter from ME2, aside from Liara, Wrex, Garrus. They were just repeats from the first one. But just *new* characters, she's the best. And she was never hypocritical or cynical, maybe cold and harsh at times, but I guess you would be too after hundreds of years of pain and sorrow. And her loyalty outfit is the BEST.

[GamerT123]

I don't think that samara is a hypocrite but more of the code itself that contradicts it basic rule of never harming the innocent. Samara is basically following these rules nothing more.

[Labrev]

General User wrote...

Nihlus has a right, in his capacity as a Spectre, to shoot people who he deems worthy of being shot. 
Samara has a duty, in her capacity as a Justicar, to shoot people who the Justicar Code deems worthy of being shot. 
This was a case where the rights of a Spectre conflicted with the duties of a Justicar.

That is not the point. The point is: Samara is trying to kill Nihlus for actions essentially no different than what she has done herself, being a danger to innocent civilians.

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
But she cries bloody murder and chases him for a week (or was it two?) because of her stupid code,

It was shooting an unarmed civilian; it was bloody murder, or at least bloody execution.

Which is sometimes permissable by her own code as well.

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
possibly endangering people by sidetracking his mission if he was on council business, for something that Nihlus may have very well been justified in doing.

The Council and its Spectre's aren’t exactly (if you’ll forgive the term) paragons of virtue. Nihlus’s “mission” could just as easily been something nefarious. There's no way to know.

Keywords "possibly" and "may" concede that there's no way to know.

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
possibly endangering people by sidetracking his mission if he was on council business, for something that Nihlus may have very well been justified in doing.  But she just acted on it since she saw him kill an unarmed civilian.

For military operatives, like the Spectres allegedly are, valid justifcations for intentionally killing unarmed civilians are...nonexistent

For a criminal justice system (like the Justicar Order), killing unarmed civilians is a part of the reason they exist.  That's what an execution is.

What if her code would've supported his decision with more context?

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
This same asari thinks its OK to kill any innocent civilians that stop her from pursuing her own investigation after one day of "incarceration." So yeah, that's just about how I define hypocrisy.

If you’re referring to Detective Anaya (or other NAPD officers), she is a police officer, not a civilian. Also, given the position Justicars hold in asari society, and that Det. Anaya is fully aware that her detaining Samara will likely result in her own death, she is not innocent either.

No, she is innocent, she did nothing wrong or worth deserving death and Samara herself says so. "I will be compelled to kill many innocents."

[General User]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
That is not the point. The point is: Samara is trying to kill Nihlus for actions essentially no different than what she has done herself, being a danger to innocent civilians.

Samara did not hunt Nihlus for being a danger to civilians, she hunted him for actually killing one.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Which is sometimes permissable by her own code as well.

Execution certainly, many justice systems (obviously the Justicar Code included) have the death penalty.  But that's the point, the Justicar Code is a justice system, the Spectre's are not.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
What if her code would've supported his decision with more context?

But if it had been true, if the person Samara saw Nihlus kill had been someone she herself would have killed, then she still would have been justified in killing (or trying to kill) Nihlus. Nihlus committed a capital offense under asari law and/or the Justicar Code.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
No, she is innocent, she did nothing wrong or worth deserving death and Samara herself says so. "I will be compelled to kill many innocents."

Detective Anaya had indeed done something wrong; she was complicit in the hindrance of a Justicar’s duties, “Obstruction of Justicar”, if you will. You and I may not consider that worthy of death or even wrong in the first place, Samara herself may not, but the Code does.  Samara abides by the Code.

That may make Samara irresponsible, but not hypocritical. 

Modifié par General User, 01 juin 2011 - 09:47 .

[jamesp81]

GamerT123 wrote...

I don't think that samara is a hypocrite but more of the code itself that contradicts it basic rule of never harming the innocent. Samara is basically following these rules nothing more.

I think that's a misunderstanding of the code.

The code requires her to save as many innocents as possible first, and punish criminals second.

[jamesp81]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Just on example off the top of my head.

She wanted to kill Nihlus, a Spectre, for shooting an unarmed civilian. Something he is well within his right to do. She didn't provide us with a reason he did so, it is safe to assume that she doesn't know why he did. But she cries bloody murder and chases him for a week (or was it two?) because of her stupid code, possibly endangering people by sidetracking his mission if he was on council business, for something that Nihlus may have very well been justified in doing. Who knows, maybe her own code would have been OK with what he did if she knew. But she just acted on it since she saw him kill an unarmed civilian.

This same asari thinks its OK to kill any innocent civilians that stop her from pursuing her own investigation after one day of "incarceration." So yeah, that's just about how I define hypocrisy.

The only reason Nihlus had the authority to kill an unarmed civilian is because a panel of bureaucrats on the citadel said he did.  A fact I don't give a single, solitary **** about.

If Nihlus had a good reason and had explained it to Samara, maybe it wouldn't have devolved into a two week pursuit.  If Nihlus was in the wrong shooting the civilian, then I can only say it's a shame she didn't catch him.

[jamesp81]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
This same asari thinks its OK to kill any innocent civilians that stop her from pursuing her own investigation after one day of "incarceration." So yeah, that's just about how I define hypocrisy.

This doesn't hold water.

Justicars are a fixture of Asari society, apparently one that a majority of Asari agree with since they haven't bothered to change the laws regarding Justicars.  Justicars are legally empowered to use force against anyone in Asari space, ANYONE, that hinders them in their duties.  The cops on Nos Astra were quite literally committing a crime by detaining her, a crime that, being Asari themselves, they damned well should've KNOWN what the punishment for would be.

The Nos Astra police were drinking deeply from fountain of stupid when they ordered Anaya to arrest a Justicar.  That's like the mayor of a town ordering the Police Chief to arrest the Director of the FBI because he was worried the FBI director might cause a diplomatic incident with visiting dignitaries in town.  That **** would not fly any further than I could throw it.

And that's another thing.  The cops on Nos Astra had no justified cause to arrest Samara.  They wanted her brought in because they thought she "might" cause a diplomatic incident, not because she was suspected of any crime.

The Nos Astra cops should've known better.  I'd guess that since Nos Astra is the Asari equivalent of Noveria, they thought that the rules somehow didn't apply to them.  They learned otherwise the easy way, thanks to Shepard's involvement.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 juin 2011 - 10:34 .

[ADLegend21]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well she hunts Morinth because she is a menace to society but Samara is herself is one. So much so that when she showed up in non-asari space they wanted her arrested to protect the public.

Samara's a menace to scoiety? no just a menace to the unjust. There's alot of injustic eon Illium and criminals could make it look like a interspecies incident so she registers with a "tracking" officer. her code is written in stone so she's obligated to follow it, no if's and's or but's about it. if she suddenly stopped following it for eprsonal reasons THEN she's a hypocrite. When a renegade shepard takes the friendhsip path she says "I hope we do not encounter each other when my oath to you is over, you have done things that would cause me to attack you if I were not sworn to you. for the Sake of our friendship I hope we do not meet when this is over." she's even willing to attacka  friend who has forced her to act based on her code, that's not hypocritical at all.

[Labrev]

jamesp81 wrote...

The
only reason Nihlus had the authority to kill an unarmed civilian is
because a panel of bureaucrats on the citadel said he did.  A fact I
don't give a single, solitary **** about.

If Nihlus had a good
reason and had explained it to Samara, maybe it wouldn't have devolved
into a two week pursuit.  If Nihlus was in the wrong shooting the
civilian, then I can only say it's a shame she didn't catch him.

What you care about doesn't matter, he still did something in his legal boundaries. For all we know, that was a dangerous person deserving to be shot. There could have been many good reasons for it too.

Samara isn't curious, as she says in your first talk with her on Normandy when you ask her what she thinks of the mission. When she commits to killing someone, she doesn't want to actually KNOW anything about that person because it might actually make her think or something. So even if Nihlus had been justified, Samara probably wouldn't have had it anyway.

jamesp81 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
This same asari thinks its OK to kill any innocent civilians that stop her from pursuing her own investigation after one day of "incarceration." So yeah, that's just about how I define hypocrisy.

This doesn't hold water.

Justicars are a fixture of Asari society, apparently one that a majority of Asari agree with since they haven't bothered to change the laws regarding Justicars.  Justicars are legally empowered to use force against anyone in Asari space, ANYONE, that hinders them in their duties.  The cops on Nos Astra were quite literally committing a crime by detaining her, a crime that, being Asari themselves, they damned well should've KNOWN what the punishment for would be.

The Nos Astra police were drinking deeply from fountain of stupid when they ordered Anaya to arrest a Justicar.  That's like the mayor of a town ordering the Police Chief to arrest the Director of the FBI because he was worried the FBI director might cause a diplomatic incident with visiting dignitaries in town.  That **** would not fly any further than I could throw it.

And that's another thing.  The cops on Nos Astra had no justified cause to arrest Samara.  They wanted her brought in because they thought she "might" cause a diplomatic incident, not because she was suspected of any crime.

The Nos Astra cops should've known better.  I'd guess that since Nos Astra is the Asari equivalent of Noveria, they thought that the rules somehow didn't apply to them.  They learned otherwise the easy way, thanks to Shepard's involvement.

It's not about the police and whether or not their decision was stupid. It's about how extreme the code is, by which Samara is compelled to act.

It's extreme enough that she needs to kill a cop for doing her job. What about all the problems that result from such an extreme punishment? The detective has to be replaced, resulting tragedy for the family, Eclipse is already bad enough in the precinct and will probably just become worse with one less cop (if that's all she kills).... so is she really any less of a danger to society than her daughter, or a council Spectre? I don't see how.

[Labrev]

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
That is not the point. The point is: Samara is trying to kill Nihlus for actions essentially no different than what she has done herself, being a danger to innocent civilians.

Samara did not hunt Nihlus for being a danger to civilians, she hunted him for actually killing one.

But its OK when Samara does the same?

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Which is sometimes permissable by her own code as well.

Execution certainly, many justice systems (obviously the Justicar Code included) have the death penalty.  But that's the point, the Justicar Code is a justice system, the Spectre's are not.

Doesn't change the fact that Spectres have the legal right to carry out executions like that if they see fit. Of course, there are lines that they can't cross, but nonetheless. Who's to say Samara wouldn't kill that person herself if she knew what his reasons were?

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
What if her code would've supported his decision with more context?

But if it had been true, if the person Samara saw Nihlus kill had been someone she herself would have killed, then she still would have been justified in killing (or trying to kill) Nihlus. Nihlus committed a capital offense under asari law and/or the Justicar Code.

.... and this isn't hypocrisy?

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
No, she is innocent, she did nothing wrong or worth deserving death and Samara herself says so. "I will be compelled to kill many innocents."

Detective Anaya had indeed done something wrong; she was complicit in the hindrance of a Justicar’s duties, “Obstruction of Justicar”, if you will. You and I may not consider that worthy of death or even wrong in the first place, Samara herself may not, but the Code does.  Samara abides by the Code.

That may make Samara irresponsible, but not hypocritical. 

She was following orders, it was not really her call. If that justifies a punishment as extreme as death, then what makes her less of a menace to society than anything else, really?

As for irresponsible vs. hypocritical, I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. She is both, as far as I'm concerned.

[AlexMBrennan]

Will someone please give me link to the bit of Samara's dialogue where she confirms that justicars have legal authority (rather than being a powerful biotic bully no one dares to challenge)?
Until such a time this discussion is *pointless* and justicars are just semi-religious fanatics with loads of fire-power.

And since you consider Samara's actions to be justified if they follow the code then please explain to me how a millennia old book can possibly be more important than the lives of people today? What if the code said that everybody gathering firewood on Saturdays had to be brutally executed?