71 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Samara's a menace to scoiety? no just a menace to the unjust.

I guess if you don't believe in the right to a fair trial or "innocent until proven guilty" then she's a force for good.

Actually, you bring up an interesting point Saphra. I stopped believing in fair trial a long time ago. It happened right around the time I heard about that woman who spilt McDonald's coffee on her lap and sued McDonald's successfully for a million+.

Or maybe it was when I heard about the breaking and entering theif that broke his leg breaking into a guy's house then sues him and wins.

Or maybe it goes further back than that. Maybe it was when OJ Simpson got away with murder.

Or maybe it just has to do with the way every single aspect of a criminal case is designed to help a perpetrator get off. Evidence is invalid unless "properly obtained", Miranda rights, and all that jazz.

Maybe I think Justice is more about righting a wrong than following the arbitrary and ambiguous laws in place. Laws that were intended to clearly state the difference between right and wrong but instead make countless loopholes.

Maybe I think justice is about paying for your crimes and not playing video games or shooting hoops.

So yeah, I stopped believing in a "fair trial" a long time ago and I love Samara.

[AlexMBrennan]

So yeah, I stopped believing in a "fair trial" a long time ago and I love Samara.

So your personal opinion supersedes the law? Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? Ah well, just another idiot to ignore.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 02 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[AnimaTempli101]

I don't think people who argue against Samara's actions seem to understand these things:

1. Justicars follow a code that promotes what can be called 'true' justice. IE You take a life of an innocent, or break the law, your life is forfeit.

2. As soon as somebody impedes the investigation of a Justicar, they are breaking the law. We have similar laws: Obstruction of Justice and Wasting Police Time.

3. The Cops on Illium detain her, they break the law. They break the law, they die.

[AlexMBrennan]

I understand that just fine - I merely don't think that her personal delusions based on a millennia old book are even remotely important (think Numbers 15:32-36, honour killings, etc)

Also, I dispute 2. - either give an exact quote that justicars have legal authority or stop justifying Samara's action with wishful citation (or ghost reference).

[General User]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
But its OK when Samara does the same?

Yes.  There are things that are acceptable from a criminal justice system that are not acceptable from a military (or criminal, like the Spectres) organization, and vice versa.  Executions are one of these. 

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Doesn't change the fact that Spectres have the legal right to carry out executions like that if they see fit. Of course, there are lines that they can't cross, but nonetheless. Who's to say Samara wouldn't kill that person herself if she knew what his reasons were?

Given that Spectres are specifically granted extra-legal status in order to complete their missions, I think it would be more accurate to say that a Spectre right to kill is an inherent one, not a legal one.

But regardless, whatever status a Spectre enjoys under Council law, they obviously do not enjoy the same status under asari law and/or the Justicar Code. In principle, I see this as no different than actions that may be legal in one country, but illegal in another.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
.... and this isn't hypocrisy?

Nope. It would be a conflict between competing systems and the respective prerogatives thereof.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
She was following orders, it was not really her call. If that justifies a punishment as extreme as death, then what makes her less of a menace to society than anything else, really?

As for irresponsible vs. hypocritical, I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. She is both, as far as I'm concerned.

They aren’t mutually exclusive. But they are different.

Who was following orders? Samara was following the dictates of the code, even though she (possibly) knew them to be wrong. Detective Anaya was following the dictates of her superiors, even though she definitely knew them to be wrong. Doing things you know to be wrong because you were told to do them seems to be endemic to the asari.

It’s not hypocritical to do that, but it is irresponsible and immoral.

[General User]

In asari society, the Justicar Code supersedes local law and law enforcement.

Modifié par General User, 02 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[CroGamer002]

@Saphra Deden

How was Samara danger to public?

[AlexMBrennan]

@general user: Others have said as much with equally absolute conviction. I'll continue ignoring it unless you have proof.

[jamesp81]

Who's to say Samara wouldn't kill that person herself if she knew what his reasons were?

Maybe if Nihlus had bothered to explain the situation, she might've agreed <_<

[jamesp81]

I'll tell you what real hypocrisy is.

People who think Spectres are A-OK going around shooting whomever they feel like but thinking a Justicar, who is placed under a lot of severe restrictions on her actions, is a bad guy.

[jamesp81]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The
only reason Nihlus had the authority to kill an unarmed civilian is
because a panel of bureaucrats on the citadel said he did.  A fact I
don't give a single, solitary **** about.

If Nihlus had a good
reason and had explained it to Samara, maybe it wouldn't have devolved
into a two week pursuit.  If Nihlus was in the wrong shooting the
civilian, then I can only say it's a shame she didn't catch him.

What you care about doesn't matter, he still did something in his legal boundaries. For all we know, that was a dangerous person deserving to be shot. There could have been many good reasons for it too.

Samara isn't curious, as she says in your first talk with her on Normandy when you ask her what she thinks of the mission. When she commits to killing someone, she doesn't want to actually KNOW anything about that person because it might actually make her think or something. So even if Nihlus had been justified, Samara probably wouldn't have had it anyway.

jamesp81 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
This same asari thinks its OK to kill any innocent civilians that stop her from pursuing her own investigation after one day of "incarceration." So yeah, that's just about how I define hypocrisy.

This doesn't hold water.

Justicars are a fixture of Asari society, apparently one that a majority of Asari agree with since they haven't bothered to change the laws regarding Justicars.  Justicars are legally empowered to use force against anyone in Asari space, ANYONE, that hinders them in their duties.  The cops on Nos Astra were quite literally committing a crime by detaining her, a crime that, being Asari themselves, they damned well should've KNOWN what the punishment for would be.

The Nos Astra police were drinking deeply from fountain of stupid when they ordered Anaya to arrest a Justicar.  That's like the mayor of a town ordering the Police Chief to arrest the Director of the FBI because he was worried the FBI director might cause a diplomatic incident with visiting dignitaries in town.  That **** would not fly any further than I could throw it.

And that's another thing.  The cops on Nos Astra had no justified cause to arrest Samara.  They wanted her brought in because they thought she "might" cause a diplomatic incident, not because she was suspected of any crime.

The Nos Astra cops should've known better.  I'd guess that since Nos Astra is the Asari equivalent of Noveria, they thought that the rules somehow didn't apply to them.  They learned otherwise the easy way, thanks to Shepard's involvement.

It's not about the police and whether or not their decision was stupid. It's about how extreme the code is, by which Samara is compelled to act.

It's extreme enough that she needs to kill a cop for doing her job. What about all the problems that result from such an extreme punishment? The detective has to be replaced, resulting tragedy for the family, Eclipse is already bad enough in the precinct and will probably just become worse with one less cop (if that's all she kills).... so is she really any less of a danger to society than her daughter, or a council Spectre? I don't see how.

The Code is accepted by the Asari, whether you like it or not.  Asari society accepts the authority of Justicars and makes no move outlaw the Justicar Order or their code.  Nor does Asari society make moves to change what Justicars can and cannot do.

Justicars can be harsh at times, but they're nowhere near as bad as Spectres.

[jamesp81]

AnimaTempli101 wrote...

I don't think people who argue against Samara's actions seem to understand these things:

1. Justicars follow a code that promotes what can be called 'true' justice. IE You take a life of an innocent, or break the law, your life is forfeit.

2. As soon as somebody impedes the investigation of a Justicar, they are breaking the law. We have similar laws: Obstruction of Justice and Wasting Police Time.

3. The Cops on Illium detain her, they break the law. They break the law, they die.

Granted that in Asari space, "Obstruction of a Justicar" if you will, carries a much nastier penalty than it does where I'm from.  But that's the body of law and tradition the Asari seem to accept, so that's their business as far as I'm concerned.

One thing I love about Samara is her not being any respecter of persons where justice is concerned.  In most societies, if government agents commit crimes, they simply get away with it.  The Asari do have an advantage here.  Government criminals don't get away with that **** when a justicar is around...they are not impressed by your badge or that you're "from the government and respect and my authoritay".  That's the beauty of the Code and the Justicar that enforces it.  In some societies, some people are above the law in practice.  In Asari space,  NO ONE is above a justicar putting a bullet in your ass if you earned it.

Modifié par jamesp81, 02 juin 2011 - 03:24 .

[jamesp81]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I understand that just fine - I merely don't think that her personal delusions based on a millennia old book are even remotely important (think Numbers 15:32-36, honour killings, etc)

Also, I dispute 2. - either give an exact quote that justicars have legal authority or stop justifying Samara's action with wishful citation (or ghost reference).

It's patently obvious what Justicar standing in Asari society is.  If Asari society did not accept and approve of them, the Asari military would've terminated them with extreme prejudice long ago.  However, that hasn't happened.  Asari society accepts the Justicar Order as an enforcer of justice and makes no moves to get rid of them.  The cop on Illium even stated that she accepted the testimony of a Justicar as verification for some evidence you brought forth, which was initially not going to admissable in an Asari court.  But with Samara's support, it apparently IS admissible.  That right there should tell you the level of legal authority they wield.

There is no other logical conclusion.  Justicars are not rogues and do not operate outside the law, as is clearly demonstrated by the final exchange between Shepard, Anaya, and Samara on Illium before returning to the Normandy.

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How were Anaya's orders "wrong"? Samara was a legitimate threat to public safety. The purpose of the police is to uphold the law and protect the public. Samara violates the law and is a danger to the public. Samara is totally in the wrong here, not Anaya or her superiors.

Name one law Samara violated.

Don't bother, I'll do it for you: she committed no crime, whatsoever, while on Illium.  None.  The cops wanted her arrested solely because they were afraid she "might" cause a diplomatic incident.

I explained a good analogy for this upthread.  Imagine if the mayor of a city ordered his police chief to arrest the Director of the FBI because he was afraid the Director would step on a few dignitaries toes while he was in town.  That's what happened on Illium.  It was a false, illegitimate arrest, that a person would be within his rights to resist with force in any society.

This isn't ****ing Minority Report.  You don't arrest people because of something they might do.

[jamesp81]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

@general user: Others have said as much with equally absolute conviction. I'll continue ignoring it unless you have proof.

See my above posts.  If you don't see the truth of the situation, then I can't help you.

[Capt_Flashheart]

jamesp81 wrote...

I'll tell you what real hypocrisy is.

People who think Spectres are A-OK going around shooting whomever they feel like but thinking a Justicar, who is placed under a lot of severe restrictions on her actions, is a bad guy.

Spectres can also not shoot whomever they feel like. A Justicar can't always do this. Just putting it out there.

[jamesp81]

Capt_Flashheart wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I'll tell you what real hypocrisy is.

People who think Spectres are A-OK going around shooting whomever they feel like but thinking a Justicar, who is placed under a lot of severe restrictions on her actions, is a bad guy.

Spectres can also not shoot whomever they feel like. A Justicar can't always do this. Just putting it out there.

Spectres can do pretty much as they damned well please.  Period.

[General User]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

@general user: Others have said as much with equally absolute conviction. I'll continue ignoring it unless you have proof.

See my above posts.  If you don't see the truth of the situation, then I can't help you.

Aye.  As you've said the Justicar Order has a defacto popular mandate to act sometimes as a supplement to, sometimes as a replacement of, the asari criminal justice system, simply by virtue of the fact that they have been doing so for umpteen thousand years and no one has successfuly stopped them.

Modifié par General User, 02 juin 2011 - 04:04 .

[jamesp81]

Let's examine the codex, while we're at it:

Justicars are an asari class of virtually untouchable, extra-judicial
executioners operating almost exclusively within asari territory.

Extra-judicial.  Meaning they operate independent of the judiciary.

Normally, any group that went around enforcing laws and handing out death penalties outside the judiciary would be labeled as terrorists, UNLESS, their existence was sanctioned and authorized by either the government, by common law, or by the people themselves.

That should really tell you where they stand in Asari society.  Obstruction of Justicar is a bad idea in Asari space; it will get you killed and your death will be counted as legal.

Modifié par jamesp81, 02 juin 2011 - 04:28 .

[AlexMBrennan]

See my above posts. If you don't see the truth of the situation, then I can't help you.

So you acknowledge that it never said in the game that the justicars have any legal authority? I'm glad we've finally established that.

Also, I can dislike both justicars and Spectres just fine. But I agree that Spectre worship is rampant (hell, even Shepard does it when he first meets Vasir)

[jamesp81]

General User wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

@general user: Others have said as much with equally absolute conviction. I'll continue ignoring it unless you have proof.

See my above posts.  If you don't see the truth of the situation, then I can't help you.

Aye.  As you've said the Justicar Order has a defacto popular mandate to act as a supplement to, or even a replacement of, the asari criminal justice system, simply by virtue of the fact that they have been doing so for umpteen thousand years and no one has successfuly stopped them.

No one's even tried to stop them.  There's no canon info, that I can find, on whether their standing is written down in a legal code, or if it is an accepted legal tradition similar to English Common Law.

In countries that follow it, English Common Law is not written by legislators and passed into law, it's the case law determined by rulings judges make in court using their own common sense and legal precedent.  The Justicars have literally been around since before Christ preached the gospel to the Gentiles.  If Asari society didn't want them, at the least, common law rulings against them would've been made, and judicial legal precedent would've limited their power severely.  That clearly has not happened.

[jamesp81]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

See my above posts. If you don't see the truth of the situation, then I can't help you.

So you acknowledge that it never said in the game that the justicars have any legal authority? I'm glad we've finally established that.

Also, I can dislike both justicars and Spectres just fine. But I agree that Spectre worship is rampant (hell, even Shepard does it when he first meets Vasir)

I do not acknowledge that.  Justicars clearly have some sort of legal standing in Asari society, but what kind is up in the air.  The three possibilties I see are

1) legislation passed by the Republics empowering the Justicar Order

2) empowerment directly from the people.  The Asari republics are modeled after the Greek city-state.  One characteristic of the greek city states was direct democracy.  This opens the possibility that a direct vote of the people at some point in their history empowered the Justicar Order

3) Common law.  Common law is not written as legislation and voted on, but consists of judicial precedent and rulings made by judges based on their own common sense.  As long as the Justicars have been around, there has been plenty of opportunity for legal cases to be brought against them, which must've been decided in their favor; otherwise, Justicars would not enjoy the extraordinary power in Asari space that they clearly do.  This would also mean that the legal tradition of stare decisis (assuming the Asari have that tradition) would fall squarely on the side of the Justicar Order in any dispute.

The game lays out the situation for you pretty clearly.  It doesn't spoon feed you.  Any cursory knowledge of legal traditions (see above) spells out the situation quite clearly.

I give you props for being internally and logically consistent in your dislike of both justicars and spectres.  Disliking justicars implies dislike of Spectres, unless you're just a Spectre fanboy.

Modifié par jamesp81, 02 juin 2011 - 04:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

jamesp81 wrote...
Spectres can do pretty much as they damned well please.  Period.

Or not, since the Council can declare Spectres rogue if their actions are too severe or violent.