71 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Spectres can do pretty much as they damned well please.  Period.

Or not, since the Council can declare Spectres rogue if their actions are too severe or violent.

Which they don't do until one has, I don't know, raised an entire army of Geth with a view towards ending civilization.  On paper, Spectres are accountable to the Council.  In practice, the Council doesn't give a **** as long as they deliver results.

[ADLegend21]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Samara's a menace to scoiety? no just a menace to the unjust.

I guess if you don't believe in the right to a fair trial or "innocent until proven guilty" then she's a force for good.

you can ask Samara about that she says "when ajusticar is onvolved a peaceful resolution is far from possible" basically justicars are problem solvers you become a problem, She solves it by snuffing you out. Even then, though, she still gives people a chance to surreder, just like she did with the eclipse merc she didnt surrender so Samara killed her. Nothing about that says menace.

[Aedan_Cousland]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Will someone please give me link to the bit of Samara's dialogue where she confirms that justicars have legal authority (rather than being a powerful biotic bully no one dares to challenge)?
Until such a time this discussion is *pointless* and justicars are just semi-religious fanatics with loads of fire-power.

And since you consider Samara's actions to be justified if they follow the code then please explain to me how a millennia old book can possibly be more important than the lives of people today? What if the code said that everybody gathering firewood on Saturdays had to be brutally executed?

The very fact that Justicars have existed for thousands of years in Asari space with no legal restrictions placed on them, prove that like Spectres, Justicars carry legal authority. They aren't vigilantes operating outside of the bounds of the law. They are the enforcers of Asari law.

Of course how that applies to Illium is a bit murky, since Illium technically wasn't Asari. It is a world founded and dominated by the Asari species of course, but it operates outside the borders of the Asari Republics. On Illium Samara is a foreigner.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 02 juin 2011 - 06:23 .

[AlexMBrennan]

No it doesn't - it merely proves that they are tolerated, possibly because no one dares to challenge their authority or because the government turns a blind eye since they're too useful, or any number of other reasons.

[Labrev]

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
But its OK when Samara does the same?

Yes.  There are things that are acceptable from a criminal justice system that are not acceptable from a military (or criminal, like the Spectres) organization, and vice versa.  Executions are one of these.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Doesn't change the fact that Spectres have the legal right to carry out executions like that if they see fit. Of course, there are lines that they can't cross, but nonetheless. Who's to say Samara wouldn't kill that person herself if she knew what his reasons were?

Given that Spectres are specifically granted extra-legal status in order to complete their missions, I think it would be more accurate to say that a Spectre right to kill is an inherent one, not a legal one.

But regardless, whatever status a Spectre enjoys under Council law, they obviously do not enjoy the same status under asari law and/or the Justicar Code. In principle, I see this as no different than actions that may be legal in one country, but illegal in another.

This asari law is presumably in council space, thus making the Spectres and their (most of) their actions legal. Therein, there is really no "injustice" that Samra has the right to act on as an emodiment of the asari "criminal justice system."

Never mind that her code allows for the very thing she would be punishing. So if someone cloned her and she watched her clone killing an innocent in a case that he code would permit her to, she would essentially be compelled to kill herself.

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
.... and this isn't hypocrisy?

Nope. It would be a conflict between competing systems and the respective prerogatives thereof.

So her purpose and the code are self-defeating, they cause problems where there otherwise wouldn't be one by their own standards.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 02 juin 2011 - 06:35 .

[Labrev]

jamesp81 wrote...

Who's to say Samara wouldn't kill that person herself if she knew what his reasons were?

Maybe if Nihlus had bothered to explain the situation, she might've agreed [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

I covered this. Samara has said herself that she doesn't want to know details about the people she's compelled to kill. To her, curiosity is dangerous.

jamesp81 wrote...

I'll tell you what real hypocrisy is.

People
who think Spectres are A-OK going around shooting whomever they feel
like but thinking a Justicar, who is placed under a lot of severe
restrictions on her actions, is a bad guy.

Believe you me, I do not think Spectres are A-OK. In principle, they are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. I do not like either extremes (Given the choice, however, I do prefer the Spectres).

jamesp81 wrote...



The Code is accepted by the Asari,
whether you like it or not.  Asari society accepts the authority of
Justicars and makes no move outlaw the Justicar Order or their code. 
Nor does Asari society make moves to change what Justicars can and
cannot do.



Justicars can be harsh at times, but they're nowhere near as bad as Spectres.

Accepted or not, I still dispute their purpose as hypocritical.



I have to wonder whether the asari accept the code/justicars because they agree with them, or because they are afraid to disagree.

Maybe the code doesn't allow itself to be invalidated!

[Aedan_Cousland]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it doesn't - it merely proves that they are tolerated, possibly because no one dares to challenge their authority or because the government turns a blind eye since they're too useful, or any number of other reasons.

Justicars are too few in number to pose a threat to the government. If the Asari Republics wanted to abolish the order, they could do so easily, just as Japan did away with it's Samurai when they became an inconvenience. The fact that they haven't is proof that they operate with the government's approval, IMO.

The codex entry on Justicars also suggests that they are agents of the government. Consider that Justicars first spend centuries either in military, police, or intelligence backgrounds before being chosen to be Justicars. They aren't being recruited from the fringe, but instead have risen through the ranks in service to the Asari Republics. The codex entry also notes that, "Despite the refinement and sophistication of asari culture, criminality remains a fact of life. The asari solution to the most vicious and destructive criminal element is the Justicar Order. That suggests that the Justicars operate in an official capacity, not as a rogue element like say, Cerberus.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 02 juin 2011 - 06:54 .

[General User]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
This asari law is presumably in council space, thus making the Spectres and their (most of) their actions legal. Therein, there is really no "injustice" that Samra has the right to act on as an emodiment of the asari "criminal justice system."

Asari law is only part of the equation.  There was also the Justicar Code to consider, which Nihlus was under (whether he knew it or not) by virtue of him being in the presence of a Justicar.  So, even if Nihlus's actions were legal under asari law, they were obviously illegal under the Justicar Code, which at times supplements, and often supersedes asari law.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Never mind that her code allows for the very thing she would be punishing. So if someone cloned her and she watched her clone killing an innocent in a case that he code would permit her to, she would essentially be compelled to kill herself.

You're focusing too much on the act and not enough the person committing it.  There are things that are acceptable from a criminal justice system (like the Justicar Order) that are not acceptable from a military and/or criminal organization(like the Spectres), and vice versa.  Executions are one of these.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
So her purpose and the code are self-defeating, they cause problems where there otherwise wouldn't be one by their own standards.

The Justicar Code is, fairly obviously, a retributive system of justice.  Its purpose is not to solve problems.  Rather it exists, as Samara puts it, "to punish the wicked."

You can call that self-defeating, or irresponsible, or immoral if you like, but it’s not hypocritical.

Modifié par General User, 02 juin 2011 - 08:20 .

[CroGamer002]

Spectre's are above the law.

Codex...

Spectres have no command structure. They answer only to the Council, and in some cases the Council prefers not to know the exact details of how a Spectre accomplishes their mission. Spectres act in any way they see fit, either with careful diplomacy or ruthless force, being officially above any law.

Which means they can do illegal actions but they have immunity. Until they go too far like Saren.

Modifié par Mesina2, 02 juin 2011 - 07:26 .

[GuardianAngel470]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

So yeah, I stopped believing in a "fair trial" a long time ago and I love Samara.

So your personal opinion supersedes the law? Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? Ah well, just another idiot to ignore.

If you honestly think most people who go through the legal system are receiving a fair trial you're mistaken. My professor recently had her house broken into and her computers and Wii stolen. Her friend and former student is a cop so the perps were apprehended while in the pawn shop where they sold her stuff.

This friend told her point blank that although the heroine addict turned house burglar had committed a crime severe enough to get three strikes the chances of him getting more than one and a few weeks in jail were very low.

The California state penitenturies will be releasing 40,000 convicted criminals out on the streets with the next couple months because they are "out of money". Criminals regularly get out on parole before their sentence is up here in the US.

Ideally, people would pay for their crimes in full. Ideally they would receive sentences befiting their crimes. Ideally criminals wouldn't get off ever on a technicality if they are guilty.

In real life it doesn't work that way. That's one of the reasons that I like Samara. She corrects that flaw in real life by being above such arbitrary and often cryptic things as law. But she acts along morals and a code of her own. Its just her code has fewer loopholes than law does.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 03 juin 2011 - 01:57 .

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Name one law Samara violated.

She murdered a helpless Eclipse merc.

I don't feel sorry for that Eclipse merc but she was entitled to be arrested and put on trial regardless. Then, once arrested, Samara politely threatened to kill any officers who were still in her way one day later.

Killing Eclipse mercs doesn't appear to be particularly illegal on Illium, especially since your team ran through a whole ****load of them without the cops even uttering a word about arrest.  Hell, what your team does is way worse than Samara.  She investigated mercs who she had reason to believe were helping out an Ardat Yakshi (which is for DAMNED sure against the law in Asari space) and used deadly force when she met resistance.  Your team, on the other hand, launches an all out unprovoked attack on Eclipse personnel and property.  And if you're like me, then Shepard also used a small nuclear weapon in a populated area to shoot down a gunship, OVER a populated area.

Besides, Justicars don't appear to be subject to the jurisdiction of the cops.  The cops appear to be subject to her jurisdiction.

Put another way, the Code, an accepted part of Asari society, says it's legal for her to kill recalcitrant Eclipse mercs that don't give up important information.

[jamesp81]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it doesn't - it merely proves that they are tolerated, possibly because no one dares to challenge their authority or because the government turns a blind eye since they're too useful, or any number of other reasons.

In thousands of years, there have undoubtedly been court cases brought against the Justicars for their actions.  It would be unreasonable to believe no court cases were ever brought against them.  The fact that they still have and enjoy all the authority they did in years past is pretty much conclusive proof that those court decisions went in favor of the Justicars.  If the rulings had gone against the Order, this would've established case law limiting their power.  Look up Common Law and Stare Decisis.

If they'd lost those inevitable court fights, they'd have been reduced to just another regular law enforcement agency.  They clearly are anything but regular.

The idea that they are merely 'tolerated' doesn't hold water.  A group operating without any recognized authority using deadly force would be considered an insurgent or terrorist group.  As strong as the Justicars are, they're not a full scale army, either.  If the Asari republics decided to be rid of them, the full power of the Asari military could destroy them easily enough.

Modifié par jamesp81, 05 juin 2011 - 05:17 .

[jamesp81]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Who's to say Samara wouldn't kill that person herself if she knew what his reasons were?

Maybe if Nihlus had bothered to explain the situation, she might've agreed [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

I covered this. Samara has said herself that she doesn't want to know details about the people she's compelled to kill. To her, curiosity is dangerous.

jamesp81 wrote...

I'll tell you what real hypocrisy is.

People
who think Spectres are A-OK going around shooting whomever they feel
like but thinking a Justicar, who is placed under a lot of severe
restrictions on her actions, is a bad guy.

Believe you me, I do not think Spectres are A-OK. In principle, they are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. I do not like either extremes (Given the choice, however, I do prefer the Spectres).

jamesp81 wrote...



The Code is accepted by the Asari,
whether you like it or not.  Asari society accepts the authority of
Justicars and makes no move outlaw the Justicar Order or their code. 
Nor does Asari society make moves to change what Justicars can and
cannot do.



Justicars can be harsh at times, but they're nowhere near as bad as Spectres.

Accepted or not, I still dispute their purpose as hypocritical.



I have to wonder whether the asari accept the code/justicars because they agree with them, or because they are afraid to disagree.

Maybe the code doesn't allow itself to be invalidated!

1) Samara doesn't want details about an individual's personality.  She DOES want to know details about their actions.  Her concern with Nihlus was his actions, not what kind of person he was.  As Samara says, she is compelled to kill those who do evil things, but she doesn't want to know that one of those people is a good father, for example.  That has NOTHING to do with Nihlus, WHATSOEVER.  All Samara cares about are actions.  Nihlus killed an innocent, from what she could tell.  If he'd explained his actions (note, his personality, the part Samara doesn't want to know, doesn't enter into this) trouble might've been avoided.  Or not, depending on why he did it.

2) The Justicar Order is not a large military force, and it apparently doesn't have a fleet to speak of.  If the Asari wanted them gone, the regular military could kill them all if the order was given.  The argument that Justicars are merely tolerated simply doesn't hold water.  If the Asari in general wanted them gone, they would be.

Modifié par jamesp81, 05 juin 2011 - 05:23 .

[jamesp81]

yorkj86 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I have to wonder whether the asari accept the code/justicars because they agree with them, or because they are afraid to disagree.

Maybe the code doesn't allow itself to be invalidated!

There's some level of control.  One of the Oaths of Subsumation is that no Justicar will interefere with, or attempt to overthrow, government.

Interesting.  I'm not disputing, I'm just curious: where is this Oath mentioned?  Just to satisfy my own personal curiosity.

[SennenScale]

jamesp81 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
There's some level of control.  One of the Oaths of Subsumation is that no Justicar will interefere with, or attempt to overthrow, government.

Interesting.  I'm not disputing, I'm just curious: where is this Oath mentioned?  Just to satisfy my own personal curiosity.

Justicar codex entry, second to last paragraph.

[sponge56]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

So yeah, I stopped believing in a "fair trial" a long time ago and I love Samara.

So your personal opinion supersedes the law? Don't you think that's a bit arrogant? Ah well, just another idiot to ignore.

If you honestly think most people who go through the legal system are receiving a fair trial you're mistaken. My professor recently had her house broken into and her computers and Wii stolen. Her friend and former student is a cop so the perps were apprehended while in the pawn shop where they sold her stuff.

This friend told her point blank that although the heroine addict turned house burglar had committed a crime severe enough to get three strikes the chances of him getting more than one and a few weeks in jail were very low.

The California state penitenturies will be releasing 40,000 convicted criminals out on the streets with the next couple months because they are "out of money". Criminals regularly get out on parole before their sentence is up here in the US.

Ideally, people would pay for their crimes in full. Ideally they would receive sentences befiting their crimes. Ideally criminals wouldn't get off ever on a technicality if they are guilty.

In real life it doesn't work that way. That's one of the reasons that I like Samara. She corrects that flaw in real life by being above such arbitrary and often cryptic things as law. But she acts along morals and a code of her own. Its just her code has fewer loopholes than law does.

But that is all subjective, just like the Samara question.  Policies on prisoners change throughout the world, laws are all different.  Also there is a difference between the petty crime you are mentioning, and more severe crimes.  A rapist in the US was recently sentenced to over 300 years in prison, most murders end up in prison for life.  Here in the UK, terrorist suspects can be held for weeks without trial, and the terrorism act gives police ridiculous powers to apprehend terrorists, to the etexnt that the European High Court declared the UK terrorism laws as breaching human rights, which the goverment has simply ignored and have continued to just keep using the Law.  The point is that the punishment for major criminals is usually severe, but that is not the case for petty criminals. Its not like Samara hunts down burgalrs and petty criminals, she hunts down murderers and major criminals.  I would presume that the Asari have similar stringent rules regarding severe crimes, so why is it still neccesary for Justicars to run around shooting them? 

[AlexMBrennan]

@GuardianAngel470: That is certainly unfortunate. However, if the system is broken then the solution is to fix it and NOT for everyone to start killing criminals if only because that's a rather subjective matter - you may think that the guy who took the Wii should be hung, drawn and quartered but his friends might not and decide that you murdering their friend warrants similar retribution.

In any case, you defend or condone the murder of police officers. In my opinion that comprehensively disqualifies you from any discussion.