40 réponses à ce sujet

[kstarler]

The reason I started this thread is because I didn't want to derail the Power of the Adept Thread. However, to quote the most recent post there:

Ahglock wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

It doesn't sound like they are getting rid of ammo powers, more like they are doubling down on that bit of idiocy. But hey now if your cryo ammo power is running your concussive shot is cold based so like now you spend 20 points to make one power not suck. I hope I missunderstood them and they are talking about equipped ammo melding with the concussive shot power.

Ammo Powers remaining is indeed very bad news, esspecially for the (hybrid-)combat classes (who will still have a poor selection of REAL powers they can use). Fortunately the Adept class is not going to be gimped with those useless 'powers'.

Do you have a source confirming ammo powers will stay? The only thing I know is that Christina has confirmed every class will have a set of specific powers (like ME2) plus a brand new one for each class - bonus powers stay like they are in ME2 (you can use only one at a time and no limits based on class). I've not heard anything about ammo powers though, I still hope BW will get sensible and removes ammo from the power grid.

They menationed it in comjunction with concussive shot, somethign like what ammo power you have active will determine the effects of your concussive shot. Also the only 3 areas of weapon customization are barrel, scope, grip. Ammo was not mentioned. I may have missunderstood them or jumped to a conclusion, but that is what I gathered.

I understand that ammo powers in ME2 don't make sense in relation to ME1 lore-wise, and that they are more or less only useful for their CC effects as the damage bonuses become negligible as upgrades are obtained. However, I see the ME2 system of ammo powers that can be quickly switched in battle for better effect as a HUGE improvement over the ME1 system, where I personally ended up just using an inferior ammo rather than having to deal with switching between Tungsten and Shedder VII ammo all the time. Plus, it made it easier to just sell/omni-gel everything without an X after it.

Hearing that ammo powers in ME3 may be returning doesn't sound like such a terrible thing to me, so why the despair over their return? Since the developers have mentioned that gear will have a noticible effect on how Shepard performs (unlike in ME2), isn't it safe to assume that ammo powers will be addressed as well? And isn't it preferable to be able to quickly switch ammo types without having to open the inventory and swap them for Shepard and squad?

Modifié par kstarler, 01 juin 2011 - 05:46 .

[goofyomnivore]

I'm cool with them returning, but not in their current form..

I'd like them to be sorta like Heavy Weapons (upgrade them through the Normandy) and pick one or possibly two to use before each mission. You would then choose an ammo power appropriate for the mission.

[termokanden]

I just don't think it's interesting spending loads of points on an ammo power. The amount of time you had to spend developing them in ME2 was just too much.

I'm fine with different types of ammo returning. I'm also fine with different classes having access to different ammos. Perhaps adepts could get Warp Ammo and soldiers could have several types, something like that. Maybe you could even spend points on getting to use a particular type of ammo. But let's not make it 10 points out of a total of 51 just for one ammo power.

[Kronner]

termokanden wrote...

But let's not make it 10 points out of a total of 51 just for one ammo power.

That also depends on how good the ammo is. E.g. Inferno Ammo is likely the best overall ammo in the game, well worth 10 points IMHO.

[termokanden]

Without a doubt. But take a class like Soldier. Realistically you'll max 2-3 ammo powers. That's a little less or a little more than half your points total spent on ammo. Isn't that a bit much?

And it's not like there's anything better to spend them on.

In fact Soldier is an excellent example of how they should NOT design classes in ME3 (IMO anyway). You have your class passive. Everybody maxes that. Then Adrenaline Rush. Same here. Then you have Inferno Ammo. You'd have to be a fool not to take it. That's 3 powers or more than half your points locked down. In general you always have large part of your choices made for you in advance unless you want to gimp your character. Then you can mess around with some unimportant differences in evolutions and have a bit of fun with your last points (if the power prerequisities will allow it).

Modifié par termokanden, 01 juin 2011 - 06:23 .

[kstarler]

termokanden wrote...

I just don't think it's interesting spending loads of points on an ammo power. The amount of time you had to spend developing them in ME2 was just too much.

I'm fine with different types of ammo returning. I'm also fine with different classes having access to different ammos. Perhaps adepts could get Warp Ammo and soldiers could have several types, something like that. Maybe you could even spend points on getting to use a particular type of ammo. But let's not make it 10 points out of a total of 51 just for one ammo power.

This does strike me as a good argument against ammo powers, and I will echo that I'm not a huge fan of having to spend points on them, especially if there are better abilities to put points into in ME3.

I am NOT a fan of having to choose an ammo power before a mission, as that seems like an even worse and less dynamic solution than the ME1 ammo modifications.

I'm trying to think of an alternative system, where one would have ammo power-like ammunition that can be switched in real-time on the move (without pausing or bringing up the inventory), but doesn't require leveling up, and I'll admit that I can't think of a better one than the ME2 system. Plus, I do like the squad ammo evolutions, for using a squad mate's ammo powers and/or Cryo ammo.

Modifié par kstarler, 01 juin 2011 - 06:29 .

[DGemu]

I don't think ammo powers are bad per se, but should be located in the weapon wheel and be under a different cool down timer (if one is needed) so they can be switched in game.  (That would mean having to come up with better powers for the soldier).

As for "wasting" experience, ammo powers such as cyro and inferno are worth it (as are others),  perhaps a different system of upgrading wouldn't be so bad (plot/research), or just remove upgrading at all.

[Kabanya101]

Ammo powers completely trashed the best and my personal favorite class, the Soldier. Where did Immunity, Shield Boost, the real Adrenaline Rush go? Up in smoke, and all that's left is a pile of ****. That's right Bioware, your idea of ammo powers ****IN SUCKS.

There bringing back mods, how hard is it to slip a mod into the loading chamber of the gun to change the type of bullet the gun shoots. I mean come on, don't be such a lazy ass like you were with ME2. I loved the game, but the class trees, and AMMO powers sucked.

If ME3 has ammo powers, I will personally make a youtube video of me setting the game on fire, that's how much I hate ammo powers.

[kstarler]

DGemu wrote...

I don't think ammo powers are bad per se, but should be located in the weapon wheel and be under a different cool down timer (if one is needed) so they can be switched in game. (That would mean having to come up with better powers for the soldier).

As for "wasting" experience, ammo powers such as cyro and inferno are worth it (as are others), perhaps a different system of upgrading wouldn't be so bad (plot/research), or just remove upgrading at all.

I don't think the ammo cool down is that big of a deal, but I do like the idea of having ammo upgraded by research rather than leveling. Maybe they can be universal powers like Unity for each ammo that the player has, so that a favorite type can be hot keyed, rather than having to go into the inventory, or switched by bringing up the power wheel/pause menu. That certainly seems preferable to having to open up the inventory and do the switching manually.

Kabanya101 wrote...

Ammo powers completely trashed the best and my personal favorite class, the Soldier. Where did Immunity, Shield Boost, the real Adrenaline Rush go? Up in smoke, and all that's left is a pile of ****. That's right Bioware, your idea of ammo powers ****IN SUCKS.

There bringing back mods, how hard is it to slip a mod into the loading chamber of the gun to change the type of bullet the gun shoots. I mean come on, don't be such a lazy ass like you were with ME2. I loved the game, but the class trees, and AMMO powers sucked.

If ME3 has ammo powers, I will personally make a youtube video of me setting the game on fire, that's how much I hate ammo powers.

I'm going to assume that you're serious, even though by my read you are coming off as a troll/thread de-railer. Since you don't propose an alternative, am I correct in assuming that you want a return to the ME1 inventory-based ammo modding system?

Modifié par kstarler, 01 juin 2011 - 08:03 .

[Kabanya101]

kstarler wrote...

DGemu wrote...

I don't think ammo powers are bad per se, but should be located in the weapon wheel and be under a different cool down timer (if one is needed) so they can be switched in game. (That would mean having to come up with better powers for the soldier).

As for "wasting" experience, ammo powers such as cyro and inferno are worth it (as are others), perhaps a different system of upgrading wouldn't be so bad (plot/research), or just remove upgrading at all.

I don't think the ammo cool down is that big of a deal, but I do like the idea of having ammo upgraded by research rather than leveling. Maybe they can be universal powers like Unity for each ammo that the player has, so that a favorite type can be hot keyed, rather than having to go into the inventory, or switched by bringing up the power wheel/pause menu. That certainly seems preferable to having to open up the inventory and do the switching manually.

Kabanya101 wrote...

Ammo powers completely trashed the best and my personal favorite class, the Soldier. Where did Immunity, Shield Boost, the real Adrenaline Rush go? Up in smoke, and all that's left is a pile of ****. That's right Bioware, your idea of ammo powers ****IN SUCKS.

There bringing back mods, how hard is it to slip a mod into the loading chamber of the gun to change the type of bullet the gun shoots. I mean come on, don't be such a lazy ass like you were with ME2. I loved the game, but the class trees, and AMMO powers sucked.

If ME3 has ammo powers, I will personally make a youtube video of me setting the game on fire, that's how much I hate ammo powers.

I'm going to assume that you're serious, even though by my read you are coming off as a troll/thread de-railer. Since you don't propose an alternative, am I correct in assuming that you want a return to the ME1 inventory-based ammo modding system?

They have already stated they are bringing back the customization and modding of weapons back into ME3. So why waste the time of having ammo powers, when class trees can be more expansive and have more powers.

I know the soldier doesn't really have much to work with, by why waste the opportunity to come up with something new and innovative than just going, "What powers to make? hmmmm I don't want to do any more code writing, so I know, ammo powers. Now I got five weeks to do nothing."

I don't want to get people off topic, but I mean face it, ammo powers were just a filler so they could get the game out on time. Sure they are useful, but with mods back, there's no need for them. the ME1 inventory system was a pain, but if you know what you want, its easy to maintain, though I don't want *that* back, but something more applicable. And that's what they are making and developing.

And I am serious about my post, I will waste $80 to preorder the whole set just to burn it if there are ammo powers. They can easily bring back old powers from ME1, or have new ones. Grenades, rockets, grenade launchers, shield boost, immunity, armor lock, adrenaline rush, assassination. There's plenty of powers to cover a full tree without ammo powers. And not just powers, but PASSIVES.

RPG are about three things: Customizations, Character immersion, and Powers/Passives

A class passive tree line is not enough, I want make character to be a tank. And ammo powers take away from the buildup of strong powers and multiple passives.

Ammo powers are useless, I use it at the start of a mission and don't think about it, when I could mod the gun for that ammo, and NEVER think about it, and have a larger class tree. They have there uses, but not as "powers," its a waste.

[mi55ter]

Just like Disruptor ammo is basically Overload in bullets, how about other biotic powers converted to ammo powers? Like, instead of just Warp Ammo, how about Pull ammo? Shoot a mook enough with it, they start to float, and you can warp 'em and bomb 'em?

[lazuli]

As I have the ability to divorce lore from gameplay in my experience of the Mass Effect universe, I wouldn't mind ammo powers returning in ME3. That said, I hope they are rebalanced a bit and further separated from one another in terms of their strengths and extra effects.

And to Kabanya101, the Soldier in ME1 was a total snooze. The ME2 Soldier isn't terribly exciting either, but I think condensing all of the ME1 Soldier's survivability into one skill was probably a good thing. Immunity was a problem and I'm glad it got addressed.

[Someone With Mass]

Ammo powers will return in ME3, and the Soldier can combine some of them with the Concussion Shot.

Sounds like improvements, though I don't think I'll play Soldier more because of it, since I find the class to be incredibly boring.

And I think ammo powers were much better than those ammo mods, because I don't have to dick around with the inventory to activate them.

[kstarler]

mi55ter wrote...

Just like Disruptor ammo is basically Overload in bullets, how about other biotic powers converted to ammo powers? Like, instead of just Warp Ammo, how about Pull ammo? Shoot a mook enough with it, they start to float, and you can warp 'em and bomb 'em?

I like this idea at first glance. It would certainly add a twist to class-based ammo powers, and Pull ammo seems like it would be very similar to Cryo ammo. It's an interesting idea, though I don't know how it would balance with the overall gameplay mechanics.

[mi55ter]

kstarler wrote...

mi55ter wrote...

Just like Disruptor ammo is basically Overload in bullets, how about other biotic powers converted to ammo powers? Like, instead of just Warp Ammo, how about Pull ammo? Shoot a mook enough with it, they start to float, and you can warp 'em and bomb 'em?

I like this idea at first glance. It would certainly add a twist to class-based ammo powers, and Pull ammo seems like it would be very similar to Cryo ammo. It's an interesting idea, though I don't know how it would balance with the overall gameplay mechanics.

It could take a bit of dependance off of cooldowns, and reward your aim (instead of the game just arcing the power for you, you behind cover) and survivability. Instead of waiting for a squaddie's pull cooldown for hours early game, Sentinels could shoot their way to their very own warp bomb combos.

[Ahglock]

termokanden wrote...

I just don't think it's interesting spending loads of points on an ammo power. The amount of time you had to spend developing them in ME2 was just too much.

I'm fine with different types of ammo returning. I'm also fine with different classes having access to different ammos. Perhaps adepts could get Warp Ammo and soldiers could have several types, something like that. Maybe you could even spend points on getting to use a particular type of ammo. But let's not make it 10 points out of a total of 51 just for one ammo power.

That is pretty much where I am at.  As a universal power like unity it is fine, something you dump points into it just seems like a point sink because you couldn''t come up with combat powers.  

[mi55ter]

mi55ter wrote...

kstarler wrote...

mi55ter wrote...

Just like Disruptor ammo is basically Overload in bullets, how about other biotic powers converted to ammo powers? Like, instead of just Warp Ammo, how about Pull ammo? Shoot a mook enough with it, they start to float, and you can warp 'em and bomb 'em?

I like this idea at first glance. It would certainly add a twist to class-based ammo powers, and Pull ammo seems like it would be very similar to Cryo ammo. It's an interesting idea, though I don't know how it would balance with the overall gameplay mechanics.

It could take a bit of dependance off of cooldowns, and reward your aim (instead of the game just arcing the power for you, you behind cover) and survivability. Instead of waiting for a squaddie's pull cooldown for hours early game, Sentinels could shoot their way to their very own warp bomb combos.

I've been thinking more about Pull ammo. It could have quite a bit of situational usage depending on the level design. For example, in LotSB, on the ship exterior, with Pull ammo you could easily take advantage of the storm carrying enemies away off of the ship (like you can do now with slam as a bonus power). Same goes with another level, the last battle in Arrival, where you're rushing to get the shuttle off the asteroid. The enemies can get carried away by the wind.
Really, it's up to the player just how many levels to use it on.  Just like the first part of the Suicicde run, where you have to open doors to let the tech specialist thru the vents, levels don't always have to be played as stop, kill everybody, move on. They could be move on as quickly as you can, leaving enemies behind you if necessary, to achieve an objective- LotSB comes to mind again. Imagine you could actually race Tela Vasir to Liara's informant and discover the data for yourself, instead of a default cutscene where she kills him.

[termokanden]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I think ammo powers were much better than those ammo mods, because I don't have to dick around with the inventory to activate them.

I am pretty much of the opposite opinion. I don't mind a small inventory system if it's better designed than the one in ME1. Doesn't even have to be a real inventory system to switch ammo.

I've already complained about the amount of points you spend on ammo powers. But actually I also find it annoying that it's a power you have to turn on. If you change your loadout, they magically disappear. If you reload, your squad's powers are turned off. It would be better if these minor issues were fixed, but really that system isn't any easier to use than a simple "change ammo type" functionality.

Modifié par termokanden, 02 juin 2011 - 07:50 .

[Kronner]

termokanden wrote...

Without a doubt. But take a class like Soldier. Realistically you'll max 2-3 ammo powers. That's a little less or a little more than half your points total spent on ammo. Isn't that a bit much?

And it's not like there's anything better to spend them on.

In fact Soldier is an excellent example of how they should NOT design classes in ME3 (IMO anyway). You have your class passive. Everybody maxes that. Then Adrenaline Rush. Same here. Then you have Inferno Ammo. You'd have to be a fool not to take it. That's 3 powers or more than half your points locked down. In general you always have large part of your choices made for you in advance unless you want to gimp your character. Then you can mess around with some unimportant differences in evolutions and have a bit of fun with your last points (if the power prerequisities will allow it).

Yeah, more options for building our Shepard would be welcome for sure.

[kstarler]

termokanden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I think ammo powers were much better than those ammo mods, because I don't have to dick around with the inventory to activate them.

I am pretty much of the opposite opinion. I don't mind a small inventory system if it's better designed than the one in ME1. Doesn't even have to be a real inventory system to switch ammo.

I've already complained about the amount of points you spend on ammo powers. But actually I also find it annoying that it's a power you have to turn on. If you change your loadout, they magically disappear. If you reload, your squad's powers are turned off. It would be better if these minor issues were fixed, but really that system isn't any easier to use than a simple "change ammo type" functionality.

Let me start by saying I agree about the annoyances with the ammo powers turning off due to changing a heavy weapon or, in the case of squad powers, reloading the game. I hope that if ammo powers return in ME3 that those annoyances are fixed.

However, I still find the ability to switch on the fly, without having to pause at all, preferable to having to bring up an inventory screen to swap out ammo mods, even allowing for a simplified inventory system in ME3. My personal preference is leaning toward turning them into "Unity" type powers that are upgraded through research/purchases rather than leveling.

[termokanden]

I guess we don't disagree at all then. I just want the ammo type to be kind of a switch for the gun that persists until you actually change it again. You could easily make a shortcut for that.

I was about to suggest something like the system in New Vegas, but then I realized that it also forgets when you switch ammo types when you reload. Silly! The switching mechanism is fine though.

Modifié par termokanden, 02 juin 2011 - 04:09 .

[kstarler]

termokanden wrote...

I guess we don't disagree at all then. I just want the ammo type to be kind of a switch for the gun that persists until you actually change it again. You could easily make a shortcut for that.

I was about to suggest something like the system in New Vegas, but then I realized that it also forgets when you switch ammo types when you reload. Silly! The switching mechanism is fine though.

The squad ammo reloading is really what annoys me. It feels like any time I'm using squad ammo in ME2 (Zaeed's Disruptor ammo or Jacob's Squad Incendiary Ammo) I have to be extra careful, because if I die I'll have to cycle through all my weapons again to re-apply it. That just stinks, because when I've already died twice trying to work out a new strategy for a given area, it is frustrating that I can't just jump right back into the action. So here's hoping that BioWare can fix that this time around.

[Bozorgmehr]

kstarler wrote...

However, I still find the ability to switch on the fly, without having to pause at all, preferable to having to bring up an inventory screen to swap out ammo mods, even allowing for a simplified inventory system in ME3. My personal preference is leaning toward turning them into "Unity" type powers that are upgraded through research/purchases rather than leveling.

In ME2 switching ammo during a mission is almost pointless imo. Even when you're fighting YMIRs or a Geth Colossus, the extra ammo damage is neglectable considering the activation animation (the extra shot(s) for not switching compenate(s)). Let alone switching between Inferno and Disruptor ammo when you're dealing with a LOKI mech. Removing the animation would help ammo's use in gameplay though it doesn't make sense to switch ammo through brain-power

I think most players only activate ammo before starting a mission (at least I do) and I never map ammo powers b/c they are not gonna be of use in combat. I don't mind how the ammo system works in ME2, I do mind ammo blocking the introduction of powers which can actually be used during a fire fight. I also consider ammo to be equipment, not something that requires any form of training or skill. All in all I consider it poor design if ammo remains a 'power' in ME3 - come on Bioware, be creative and give the combat classes some real powers instead of 'ammo'.

[termokanden]

I do switch ammo powers during missions. I know the missions by now, and sometimes I know I'll be facing mostly shields. Other times it could be armor. You can switch while moving without wasting time. Usually it's not worth switching in combat though.

I know ammo powers are not super popular around here (except maybe Inferno Ammo), but for sniping for example it IS worth it using the right ammo and switching mid-mission.

Don't really disagree with your argument about giving certain classes some real powers instead. But easy switching between ammos is good.

Modifié par termokanden, 02 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[kstarler]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

In ME2 switching ammo during a mission is almost pointless imo. Even when you're fighting YMIRs or a Geth Colossus, the extra ammo damage is neglectable considering the activation animation (the extra shot(s) for not switching compenate(s)). Let alone switching between Inferno and Disruptor ammo when you're dealing with a LOKI mech. Removing the animation would help ammo's use in gameplay though it doesn't make sense to switch ammo through brain-power

I think most players only activate ammo before starting a mission (at least I do) and I never map ammo powers b/c they are not gonna be of use in combat. I don't mind how the ammo system works in ME2, I do mind ammo blocking the introduction of powers which can actually be used during a fire fight. I also consider ammo to be equipment, not something that requires any form of training or skill. All in all I consider it poor design if ammo remains a 'power' in ME3 - come on Bioware, be creative and give the combat classes some real powers instead of 'ammo'.

I think we're more or less in agreement on your first point. For your second point, I will admit that it is rare to want to change ammunition in the middle of a fire fight, and at level 30 with upgrades, it will likely only cause a reduction in DPS as you wait on the animation/cool downs. However, at lower levels, ammo powers can make a pretty big difference in my experience, especially when it comes to stripping defenses, and there are some recruitment missions (Mordin's pops to mind) where there is a switch from shields to armor about midway through. In that, I think it's more of a personal style/preference. Even so, I still think being able to switch ammo in real time rather than bringing up a menu is better.

On the idea of ammo "powers" I'm curious what you think about making ammo "powers" universal (like Unity) and upgradable through research rather than leveling. Surely if the Soldier suddenly had three less class-specific powers, BioWare would have add new ones in their place, wouldn't they?

Modifié par kstarler, 03 juin 2011 - 02:19 .