40 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

One of the main issues with ammo are defenses. Disruptor Ammo is great against Geth only, b/c ammo will increase damage versus their shields and health. Incendiary Ammo is equally great against Bloodpack (armor and health; blocks health regen). But that's about it; most mission include enemies who have shields and health, meaning you have to chose between ammo that's effective against shields OR ammo that's effective against health - you cannot have both without switching ammo or weapons; which is redundant b/c of the time required to switch (could be used to keep shooting which likely results in enemies dying sooner rather than later).

I would prefer ammo to be equipment only. I wouldn't mind removing ammo completely during missions - you can only select ammo before missions like weapon-loadouts (mods) and squadmates. Such a system would make room for decent powers (instead of ammo powers); it would make classes who can carry more weapons 'better' weapon specialists (Soldiers with 5 weapons will have a clear advantage over casters who can only carry two weapons - they not only have more weapons to chose from, but also more/different ammo effects); it would increase tactics/planning (it's not only a question which weapons you're gonna use, but also what ammo you want on each one); it would put more emphasis on weapon selection before starting a mission because the weapons you (can) pick up during a mission cannot be respec ed (would make ammo more valuable b/c powerful, yet low on ammo weapons which therefore can only be used a few times before becoming redundant (ran out of ammo) - picking up dropped weapons will give you a new weapon, but without the option to use the preferable ammo). It would also increase the value of reading codex - knowing what enemies you're about to face can be vital info, selecting the appropriate ammo can make a lot of difference (a bit like The Witcher 2's preparations before battle - I really like that feature, encouraging players to investigate their enemies before fighting em, coming prepared makes a huge difference, coming unprepared can make fights (close to) impossible to complete).

Ammo is a great feature, but not a 'power' - I applaud BW for dropping the silly weapon restrictions in ME3; ammo restrictions are equally silly and therefore should not be class specific. Mass Effect is about a soldier who can use both weapons and powers; the powers should be making the difference not equipment. The whole point of the game is to combined powers and weapons, limiting some weapons and/or ammo to specific classes is a sign of incompetence meaning the devs are unable to differentiate classes based on skills and have to use some silly restriction(s) to give some classes extra flavor.

Ammo being a power also (almost) completely removes the option to have ammo interact with powers. I like biotic combos in ME2 and would love to see more combos - which are not limited to one or a couple powers only, but instead can be executed using weapons and/or ammo also. For example - Disruptor Ammo that can (briefly) deactivate enemy shields so they are susceptible to powers which 'normally' only work once defenses are removed completely; Warp Ammo which briefly increases biotic powers (like a +X% power damage bonus for all biotic powers which hit enemy whilst the effect is active) and so on.

[DecCylonus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

One of the main issues with ammo are defenses. Disruptor Ammo is great against Geth only, b/c ammo will increase damage versus their shields and health. Incendiary Ammo is equally great against Bloodpack (armor and health; blocks health regen). But that's about it; most mission include enemies who have shields and health, meaning you have to chose between ammo that's effective against shields OR ammo that's effective against health - you cannot have both without switching ammo or weapons; which is redundant b/c of the time required to switch (could be used to keep shooting which likely results in enemies dying sooner rather than later).

I would prefer ammo to be equipment only. I wouldn't mind removing ammo completely during missions - you can only select ammo before missions like weapon-loadouts (mods) and squadmates. Such a system would make room for decent powers (instead of ammo powers); it would make classes who can carry more weapons 'better' weapon specialists (Soldiers with 5 weapons will have a clear advantage over casters who can only carry two weapons - they not only have more weapons to chose from, but also more/different ammo effects); it would increase tactics/planning (it's not only a question which weapons you're gonna use, but also what ammo you want on each one); it would put more emphasis on weapon selection before starting a mission because the weapons you (can) pick up during a mission cannot be respec ed (would make ammo more valuable b/c powerful, yet low on ammo weapons which therefore can only be used a few times before becoming redundant (ran out of ammo) - picking up dropped weapons will give you a new weapon, but without the option to use the preferable ammo). It would also increase the value of reading codex - knowing what enemies you're about to face can be vital info, selecting the appropriate ammo can make a lot of difference (a bit like The Witcher 2's preparations before battle - I really like that feature, encouraging players to investigate their enemies before fighting em, coming prepared makes a huge difference, coming unprepared can make fights (close to) impossible to complete).

Ammo is a great feature, but not a 'power' - I applaud BW for dropping the silly weapon restrictions in ME3; ammo restrictions are equally silly and therefore should not be class specific. Mass Effect is about a soldier who can use both weapons and powers; the powers should be making the difference not equipment. The whole point of the game is to combined powers and weapons, limiting some weapons and/or ammo to specific classes is a sign of incompetence meaning the devs are unable to differentiate classes based on skills and have to use some silly restriction(s) to give some classes extra flavor.

Ammo being a power also (almost) completely removes the option to have ammo interact with powers. I like biotic combos in ME2 and would love to see more combos - which are not limited to one or a couple powers only, but instead can be executed using weapons and/or ammo also. For example - Disruptor Ammo that can (briefly) deactivate enemy shields so they are susceptible to powers which 'normally' only work once defenses are removed completely; Warp Ammo which briefly increases biotic powers (like a +X% power damage bonus for all biotic powers which hit enemy whilst the effect is active) and so on.

As somebody who plays a soldier and has used all the ammo powers extensively, I have to disagree with your first point. Ammo powers are not as one dimensional as you describe. Disruptor ammo, for example, is useful against anything with shields because it quickly strips one layer of defense. It's great against Geth and Mechs because any hit when they are unprotected stuns them briefly (except YMIRs). Cryo ammo is good against everything because a frozen enemy is out of the fight and takes more damage. Armor Piercing ammo is also good against everything because of its damage bonus to both health and armor. And so on. I do agree that it is generally not worth switching ammo in the middle of a fight. The strategy is to pick the one ammo that will be effective in the most situations on the mission and stick with it. You make swtiches if a different enemy type appears, but you don't change constantly.

I do find the concept of ammo as a power to be ridiculous. From an immersion standpoint, it's silly that only certain classes know how to use certain ammo. I liked ME much better when my Sentinel or Engineer could just insert the appropriate ammo in their weapon (cumbersome inventory management screens aside). Squad ammo is a poor replacement because it forces everyone to use the same type, which isn't always what you want. You can work around that if you sequence the powers and weapons, but that is just as cumbersome as ME's inventory system. From a character standpoint, it bugged me that most of my chosen class's abilities were ammo powers. I liked them, and they were useful, but I wanted more variety in my build. Some soldier powers in ME were broken, like Immunity, but I missed things like Shield Boost. My soldier was one dimensional until I unlocked the bonus powers to play with. Also, I disliked that changing ammo triggers the cooldown timer. Obviously that's the game mechanic for powers, but it seems silly because I still think of ammo as equipment. As far as being quick to access, I see no reason why ammo couldn't be mapped to the radial menu if it were equipment.  Give the player a brief animation for the ammo change and carry on.

Overall, there was much of ME2 that I preferred to ME, but I would like to see ammo become equipment again.

[kstarler]

Honestly Boz, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on some of your proposals. I haven't played either Witcher game (I bought and started the first one, but there are MAJOR graphical issues, since the game doesn't have a built in Vsync), but the idea of being forced to read codex entries in order to be fully capable of killing an enemy in game sounds incredibly tedious when coupled with the fact that ME is a shooter/RPG hybrid. Maybe it would be interesting to add to DA3, but I'd rather not see something like that in ME.

The idea of only switching ammo on the Normandy is something that I don't like, just as I didn't like being able to only change armor/clothes in the captain's cabin. I know that it is more realistic to do it that way, but I would prefer better gameplay over realism/lore probably 8 out of 10 times, and I think the option to change something like ammunition mods during a mission is a better way to go, if only to avoid having to reload back on the Normandy half-way through a mission because the player forgot to bring along ammo that is good against organics. In that, I think most of us are in agreement. The biggest disagreement I'm seeing is whether to keep them as something that is activated from the power-wheel or make them inventory based.

EDIT: I just want to re-emphasize that I am all for making ammo universal and removing it from class loadouts. I would just rather see it as something that can be changed fluidly, without stopping the action to fiddle with the inventory.

Modifié par kstarler, 03 juin 2011 - 04:33 .

[Bozorgmehr]

kstarler wrote...

Honestly Boz, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on some of your proposals. I haven't played either Witcher game (I bought and started the first one, but there are MAJOR graphical issues, since the game doesn't have a built in Vsync), but the idea of being forced to read codex entries in order to be fully capable of killing an enemy in game sounds incredibly tedious when coupled with the fact that ME is a shooter/RPG hybrid. Maybe it would be interesting to add to DA3, but I'd rather not see something like that in ME.

You're not forced to read codex entries in ME2; if you don't, you'll likely come ill prepared. Reading codex about the planet and its inhabitants will give you a good idea who and what you're facing and you can select (bonus) powers, weapons and squadmates accordingly. Just like in the Witcher 2, reading about something is only useful the first time around - you also don't have to read anything at all, but you'll need to experiment with different abilities to figure out what works well, and what doesn't (like you can in ME2).

ME is a 'tactical' powerbased 3rd person shooter; it only makes sense to encourage players, or at least give em the opportunity to learn a thing or two about the opponents before dealing with em personally. It basically comes down to stuff like "he, we're up against Geth" > "Geth are synthetics" > "Synthetics have shields and are susceptible to anti-shield powers" > "Maybe it's helpful to pick squadmates and weapons which work well versus shields/synthetics."

The idea of only switching ammo on the Normandy is something that I don't like, just as I didn't like being able to only change armor/clothes in the captain's cabin. I know that it is more realistic to do it that way, but I would prefer better gameplay over realism/lore probably 8 out of 10 times, and I think the option to change something like ammunition mods during a mission is a better way to go, if only to avoid having to reload back on the Normandy half-way through a mission because the player forgot to bring along ammo that is good against organics. In that, I think most of us are in agreement. The biggest disagreement I'm seeing is whether to keep them as something that is activated from the power-wheel or make them inventory based.

EDIT: I just want to re-emphasize that I am all for making ammo universal and removing it from class loadouts. I would just rather see it as something that can be changed fluidly, without stopping the action to fiddle with the inventory.

One of the things I really disliked about ME1 was the inventory system. The option to switch ammo and even your armor, on the fly - no animation or delay - is ridiculous. Shep cannot carry 50+ armor sets plus 50+ mods and ammo, even if (s)he could, changing something in the heat of battle is ridiculous. It also completely breaks immersion for me, having to pause every x seconds - just to apply the appropriate ammo - is horrible imo. Every single soldier who ever walked the earth could only pick and modify their equipment before going to battle; during a battle they had to fight - not worry about how they looked or if they brought the 'right' weapon(s)

Planning was, is, and always will be an important factor in warfare. One of the most famous and oldest military manuals clearly states "Know yourself and know your enemy, in a hundred battles you will never be defeated." - Sun Tzu. Those who did study their enemy, knew about their strengths and weaknesses - those who didn't had no clue and got their asses kicked most of the time

Adding the occasional weapon-locker (ala ME2) and/or armor-locker (to change armor) in levels is OK, but preferably not during a fire-fight. You can still swap gear during missions, but only at a few locations. Combat should be about combat, not micro-managing equipment - micro-managing is cool outside of combat, the more stuff available to modify and/or tweak the better - bot not while you're fighting.

[kstarler]

I don't think we're in disagreement on anything in particular that you posted Boz. I clearly misunderstood what you were saying about the codex entries, though I would argue that we already have that, if it is less detailed. In that regard, I think more detail in the pre-mission briefings is a great idea and will indeed help to better plan ahead.

As far as the inventory goes, let me clarify. I want the same inventory in ME3 that we have in ME2, which is a Normandy based inventory, I.E: there are various interfaces aboard the ship with which Shepard and Co. can be customized/outfitted. I think my gripe with armor could easily be fixed by adding an additional option to change armor at the beginning of a mission, in the same way the weapon load-out can already be changed in ME2. However, I do want to preserve the ability to change ammunition modifications throughout a mission. If we don't bring back an ME1-type inventory (even a better implemented system would likely be cumbersome in one way or another), there are three options to my mind:


1. Ammo modifications can only be changed aboard the ship, a la armor in ME2.
2. Ammo modifications can be changed aboard the ship and at weapons kiosks in missions.
3. Ammo modifications act as powers, and can be changed via the power wheel/hotkeys.
To be honest, I'd be happy with option 2 or 3, though I prefer 3, provided BioWare can fix the issues with ammo powers from ME2 (resetting after reloads or using a kiosk, etc). There's another saying about war, which is, "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." To me, it is important to be able to make snap decisions to alter my plan of attack when needed.

Modifié par kstarler, 03 juin 2011 - 08:31 .

[kregano]

I think that allowing players to choose their own ammo powers prior to a mission would be good. I certainly never used Cryo ammo and most of the bonus ammo powers on most of my playthroughs, preferring Warp, Incendiary, or Disruptor ammo whenever possible. Plus having customizable ammo loadouts would open up the opportunity for players to experiment more with the other bonus powers, since you don't have to worry about blowing your one bonus power on an ammo type to replace one you don't use.

[Onpoint17]

I'm doing a new play through in ME1 as a Soldier. I have to say, even though the combat was poor in the first game, having an inventory of ammo types that you could switch out during a mission was far better and superior to having "ammo powers". I'd like ammo and grenades to be a separate equipment load-out in ME3 just like it was in ME1. That was probably the best part of combat in ME1 all the customization you could do on the fly and not have to return to the Normandy and retrain your powers.

[Alamar2078]

My preference would be that ammo types are not treated as a skill / power that you have to invest points in. The hard part of this [to me] is what powers do you give a Soldier to replace the ammo powers that they would lose???

Sure you could give them something like Fortification but then the Sentinel may lose some of it's special feel.

In ME2 there are grenade types but [to me] these should just be items in your premission loadout and shouldn't be skills.

Building a small area of cover might not be bad but once again that's not really a skill to invest points in but an ability. Heck this may be too close to a "tech" power anyway depending on how the cover is constructed.

Do you bring back points you can put into weapon types [AR, Sniper Rifle, etc.] that unlocks special abilities?? If you're a specialist in one weapon though that gives you reason NOT to cycle between other weapons and I'd prefer a game where each weapon type has an important role for a Soldier and where you'd be [much?] more effective if you cycled through weapons rather than just keeping one the whole game.

BTW: While I prefer to change ammo powers on the fly, in ME2 99% of the time I would set all my ammo powers as soon as the mission began and wouldn't change it for the rest of the mission. If I had access to multiple ammo powers I'd almost always have different powers on different weapons to make sure I could cover most eventualities. I liked that extra little bit of planning that went into ammo powers & weapon choice.

[DecCylonus]

Why not give soldiers weapon powers, similar to the ones you got from the weapons skills in ME1? Since all classes will have access to all weapons in ME3, having special skills to use with them would help the soldier feel like the combat specialist they are supposed to be.

[Alamar2078]

The only problem with bringing back weapon skills would be that a Soldier is more likely to use just one or possibly two weapons for the whole playthrough. While this may not be bad by itself I think it would be better if a Soldier had to rotate through all their weapons to hit peak efficiency.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 08 juin 2011 - 01:21 .

[Ahglock]

Alamar2078 wrote...

The only problem with bringing back weapon skills would be that a Soldier is more likely to use just one or possibly two weapons for the whole playthrough. While this may not be bad by itself I think it would be better if a Soldier had to rotate through all their weapons to hit peak efficiency.

You probably could have each of those weapons skills or somethig similar work for all weapons, but just be more effective if used on the weapon they were designed for.  For exmaple the assault rifles ability was a heat management thing.  A short time period where you don't go through thermal clips due to heat management would be best on a rapid fire gun, but it would help on any gun.  A super charged next shot(sniper rifle abiltiy) can help with any gun, but the single shot big damage guns it works best with.  

[Alamar2078]

I'm not saying things can't be made to work. Just that you have to think through your alternatives carefully.

Of course if you want Carnage back this may be the best way to get it. YMMV ....

[DecCylonus]

I don't want the weapons skills back, just the powers associated with them. Make Marksman, Carnage, Overkill, and Assassinate standalone powers, and give soldiers access to all of them. It would let them be masters of every weapon, which is what they should be. Other classes might get one, such as Carnage for Vanguards or Assassinate for Infiltrators.

If the weapons are balanced properly and ammo pickups are limited correctly, it will force soldiers to use all of them to achieve maximum effectiveness.

Modifié par DecCylonus, 08 juin 2011 - 07:31 .

[Kronner]

Apparently, ammo powers are making a return to ME3. IMHO it is the better gameplay solution, and it will add more variety to the classes, despite the fact that "ammo mods" make more sense lore-wise.

[RedCaesar97]

Ammo powers are making a return. I see Armor-Piercing Ammo, Incendiary Ammo, Disruptor Ammo, and Cryo Ammo. Video courtesy of GameSpot for those who have not seen it yet:
http://e3.gamespot.com/video/6318253/