397 réponses à ce sujet

[neppakyo]

WilliamShatner wrote...

If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

Ouch.. I guess those chinese programmers are cheap. o.O

[erynnar]

Meglort wrote...

Profit = Revenue - ((Labor rates x body count x duration) + fixed costs).
So I don't buy the 5 times duration line at all, sorry.

Feasibly DA2 could of had the normal expected amount of content provided that two things were done (assuming the same number of people worked on both):
1) The project plan adequately addressed the integration of the teams to parallel develop content;
2) There were enough bodies on the ground to create the content in the first place.

Most likely reason for the result of DA2 is that either there were not enough bodies to do the work or the work (scope) was poorly managed against the duration.

Having decided to completely re-write the kernel of the game and the fundamentals, my guess is that there was no funding to actually write content for the game, hence it is what it is.

Which brings me to my main issue with this whole thing:
1) It was marketed as DA2 not DA:Kirkwall (a light-on content, action spin-off on the DA theme);
2) The marketing grossly exaggerated the features and user experience (i.e. they lied about it);
3) It is a BioWare AAA title that provides such a content-less experience (so dashed expectations);
4) The user-base have clearly funded R&D of infrastructure (i.e. new game engine, etc.) and got little or nothing in return (cf: TW2 which delivered both with a much smaller budget than DA2);
5) There were incentives provided to pre-order, targeting an existing fan base that in doing so had reasonable expectations that in hindsight would not have bought the game at full retail knowing they were getting done over, and now feel like their trust and expectations have been dashed.

Sad part is that DA2 likely does have some good points, and I am sure Laidlaw achieved his vision of what DAO should have always been in the first place - it just wasn't what a paid and pre-ordered for. Nobody was told though that this was a joy-ride in re-design & self-flagellation at our expense.

I design and lead massive IT projects for a living and without question, in our business the above would have us end up in court, the newspaper and unlikely to win another major project.

Fortunately for consumers, the internet allows the kind of lobbying and visibility of issues that the court system does in the commercial world, because in this business model we are just retail victims - but certainly in my case and likely others highly unlikely to make the same mistake again.

*claps* Well said, so well said.

[Atakuma]

WilliamShatner wrote...

If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

They built a new engine for the game, it isn't surprising that Origins cost a lot more.

[neppakyo]

erynnar wrote...

Meglort wrote...
-awesomeness snipped-

*claps* Well said, so well said.

Wow, I missed that post. I agree, very well said!

[AngryFrozenWater]

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Meglort wrote...
-awesomeness snipped-

*claps* Well said, so well said.

Wow, I missed that post. I agree, very well said!

Same here. Good post.

[WilliamShatner]

Atakuma wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

They built a new engine for the game, it isn't surprising that Origins cost a lot more.

Then the money should be move in other areas.  A sequel's budget should be either equal or greater than the original, if that original was successful, to make the game bigger and better. 

The cost-cutting at the expense of quality to increase profits makes me sick. 

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 04 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[Atakuma]

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Meglort wrote...
-awesomeness snipped-

*claps* Well said, so well said.

Wow, I missed that post. I agree, very well said!

Oh yes, another rant about Bioware being liars, how great. Bonus points for namedropping TW2 for no reason.

[neppakyo]

WilliamShatner wrote...
The cost-cutting at the expense of quality to increase profits makes me sick. 

I think thats the EA motto!

[neppakyo]

Atakuma wrote...

Oh yes, another rant about Bioware being liars, how great. Bonus points for namedropping TW2 for no reason.

No quite liars, but very misleading in the marketing about the product. Since there are no other new RPGs out yet, TW2 is the only one and comparing it to DA2 for budget reasons is an actual reason. Did you read it, or just skip over it due to your personal opinions on people offering ther own critisims?

[erynnar]

Atakuma wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Meglort wrote...
-awesomeness snipped-

*claps* Well said, so well said.

Wow, I missed that post. I agree, very well said!

Oh yes, another rant about Bioware being liars, how great. Bonus points for namedropping TW2 for no reason.

I caught that the marketing mislead. And TW2 was an example of a sequel done with less money that delivered more, not asked for more money and delivered less. Of course I could be reading that wrong. Maybe I need wine for my reading comprehension to go up.

Modifié par erynnar, 04 juin 2011 - 03:02 .

[Atakuma]

neppakyo wrote...

No quite liars, but very misleading in the marketing about the product. Since there are no other new RPGs out yet, TW2 is the only one and comparing it to DA2 for budget reasons is an actual reason. Did you read it, or just skip over it due to your personal opinions on people offering ther own critisims?

He doesn't know the budget of either game, so making the comparison is pointless.

[erynnar]

Atakuma wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

No quite liars, but very misleading in the marketing about the product. Since there are no other new RPGs out yet, TW2 is the only one and comparing it to DA2 for budget reasons is an actual reason. Did you read it, or just skip over it due to your personal opinions on people offering ther own critisims?

He doesn't know the budget of either game, so making the comparison is pointless.

He wasn't talking about the budget for the marketing, but how they sold DA2 to us and what was promised in that marketing. And that is available to compare. Where did the budget or money for marketing ever come into it?

Maybe you need the wine for reading comprehension.

[WilliamShatner]

Well it's definitely below $40 million as the top ten most expensive games range from $40-$100 million and neither DA is amongst them.

[Atakuma]

erynnar wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

No quite liars, but very misleading in the marketing about the product. Since there are no other new RPGs out yet, TW2 is the only one and comparing it to DA2 for budget reasons is an actual reason. Did you read it, or just skip over it due to your personal opinions on people offering ther own critisims?

He doesn't know the budget of either game, so making the comparison is pointless.

He wasn't talking about the budget for the marketing, but how they sold DA2 to us and what was promised in that marketing. And that is available to compare. Where did the budget or money for marketing ever come into it?

Maybe you need the wine for reading comprehension.

I was talking about the game's budget not marketing's budget.

[neppakyo]

Atakuma wrote...

He doesn't know the budget of either game, so making the comparison is pointless.

DA2's budget around $25-32 million. TW2's budget between $8-10 million. DA2 had an engine to work with. TW2 created a brand new engine from scratch.

Numbers from reading various interviews and such, provided by an intelligent use of google.

EDIT: DA2 had the EA Marketing machine with uptolds of millions of dollars available. TW2 had no marketing budget.

Modifié par neppakyo, 04 juin 2011 - 03:08 .

[David Gaider]

WilliamShatner wrote...
If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

Sigh.

DAO took roughly 5 years to make. DA2 took just over a year? The only cost for a development studio is the money spent in keeping it running and all its employees paid. What part of that comparison is so surprising to you? If you feel that we should have spent more time making the game, that's a reasonable suggestion. My response was regarding the comment that the sales (as in the number of units sold) would be the only takeaway we would listen to-- and I was responding to that only, in that there is far more involved.

If there's any question as to why such discussions can't be reasonably had on forums in the future, this would be an excellent thread to direct them towards.

[In Exile]

WilliamShatner wrote...

If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

Keep in mind this includes things like salary & lease for the space, so some of it will just be accrued cost independent of development. Also, Gaidner pointed out he was totally making up numbers.

ETA:

Or apparently maybe not.

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[neppakyo]

David Gaider wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

Sigh.

DAO took roughly 5 years to make. DA2 took just over a year? The only cost for a development studio is the money spent in keeping it running and all its employees paid. What part of that comparison is so surprising to you? If you feel that we should have spent more time making the game, that's a reasonable suggestion. My response was regarding the comment that the sales (as in the number of units sold) would be the only takeaway we would listen to-- and I was responding to that only, in that there is far more involved.

If there's any question as to why such discussions can't be reasonably had on forums in the future, this would be an excellent thread to direct them towards.

To the bolded. I'm sure no matter whoever feels about DA2, theres a 100% agreement that a lot more time was needed in development.

I think this recent iteration, is in response to the dev time, massive marketing budget and so on.

I could be wrong.

[In Exile]

neppakyo wrote...
DA2's budget around $25-32 million. TW2's budget between $8-10 million. DA2 had an engine to work with. TW2 created a brand new engine from scratch.

Numbers from reading various interviews and such, provided by an intelligent use of google.

EDIT: DA2 had the EA Marketing machine with uptolds of millions of dollars available. TW2 had no marketing budget.

Yes, but TW2's design allowed it to cheap out in a lot of areas DA2 doesn't get to cheap out. Don't get me wrong - TW2 is a brilliant game, and the engine is great. But TW2 is a smaller design endeavour, with less characters and less unique-but-custom-made models being put foward.

Just look at the total amount of conversation between the two as a comparison. I replayed DA2 after TW2, and honestly, TW2 is a small game. It's excellently done, but it's a lot less ambitious than DA2 in terms of the ground they tried to cover.

The difference is that TW2 did what they set out to do well.

[WilliamShatner]

David Gaider wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

The only cost for a development studio is the money spent in keeping it running and all its employees paid. What part of that comparison is so surprising to you?

I didn't say I was surprised.  I said I was disgusted.

It isn't surprising at all to learn that DA2 had less time and money spent on it.  It shows while playing the game.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 04 juin 2011 - 03:18 .

[topster88]

David Gaider wrote...

If there's any question as to why such discussions can't be reasonably had on forums in the future, this would be an excellent thread to direct them towards.

Oh come on, I've seen threads with WAY more vitriol on these forums than this. And I know you have too.

Modifié par topster88, 04 juin 2011 - 03:19 .

[Dormiglione]

erynnar wrote...

Meglort wrote...

Profit = Revenue - ((Labor rates x body count x duration) + fixed costs).
So I don't buy the 5 times duration line at all, sorry.

Feasibly DA2 could of had the normal expected amount of content provided that two things were done (assuming the same number of people worked on both):
1) The project plan adequately addressed the integration of the teams to parallel develop content;
2) There were enough bodies on the ground to create the content in the first place.

Most likely reason for the result of DA2 is that either there were not enough bodies to do the work or the work (scope) was poorly managed against the duration.

Having decided to completely re-write the kernel of the game and the fundamentals, my guess is that there was no funding to actually write content for the game, hence it is what it is.

Which brings me to my main issue with this whole thing:
1) It was marketed as DA2 not DA:Kirkwall (a light-on content, action spin-off on the DA theme);
2) The marketing grossly exaggerated the features and user experience (i.e. they lied about it);
3) It is a BioWare AAA title that provides such a content-less experience (so dashed expectations);
4) The user-base have clearly funded R&D of infrastructure (i.e. new game engine, etc.) and got little or nothing in return (cf: TW2 which delivered both with a much smaller budget than DA2);
5) There were incentives provided to pre-order, targeting an existing fan base that in doing so had reasonable expectations that in hindsight would not have bought the game at full retail knowing they were getting done over, and now feel like their trust and expectations have been dashed.

Sad part is that DA2 likely does have some good points, and I am sure Laidlaw achieved his vision of what DAO should have always been in the first place - it just wasn't what a paid and pre-ordered for. Nobody was told though that this was a joy-ride in re-design & self-flagellation at our expense.

I design and lead massive IT projects for a living and without question, in our business the above would have us end up in court, the newspaper and unlikely to win another major project.

Fortunately for consumers, the internet allows the kind of lobbying and visibility of issues that the court system does in the commercial world, because in this business model we are just retail victims - but certainly in my case and likely others highly unlikely to make the same mistake again.

*claps* Well said, so well said.

I second that.

[neppakyo]

In Exile wrote...

Yes, but TW2's design allowed it to cheap out in a lot of areas DA2 doesn't get to cheap out. Don't get me wrong - TW2 is a brilliant game, and the engine is great. But TW2 is a smaller design endeavour, with less characters and less unique-but-custom-made models being put foward.

Just look at the total amount of conversation between the two as a comparison. I replayed DA2 after TW2, and honestly, TW2 is a small game. It's excellently done, but it's a lot less ambitious than DA2 in terms of the ground they tried to cover.

The difference is that TW2 did what they set out to do well.

True, and also TW2 had more lines of dialogue than DA2 as well. I think BW tried to cover too much at once, and try to string it together with the thinnest veil of logic. With TW2 less in the companion department, the various other characters and NPC's were done very well, and I don;t think 'cheaped out'

Basically I think the point is, they did more with less of a budget than DA2. DA2 felt a lot lazier, and slapped together without any care or fun put into the dev. If that makes sense.

Hmm, IE, you're always interesting to argue with hehe.

[Well]

WilliamShatner wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
If DA2 cost 1/5th the amount DA:O did as Gaider suggested I am disgusted.

The only cost for a development studio is the money spent in keeping it running and all its employees paid. What part of that comparison is so surprising to you?

I didn't say I was surprised.  I said I was disgusted.

It isn't surprising at all to learn that DA2 had less time and money spent on it.  It shows while playing the game.

I just curious.Didnt they make  ME 1 in that time frame?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The only thing I need to see get through to BioWare is the "i can has central party mgmt scrienz plz."

Besides that, I'd like to make sure this gets through: I budget 4 full price titles a year, absolute max of 5. If you can get me a game like DA2 or ME2 every 18 months, I'll mark two of those slots for BioWare games and watch happily as you smooth out the bumps in the formula and the genre. Mix in a 40-50 hour romp (keeping the DA2/ME2 play-over-plan ratio) every five years and I'm sold for as long as I continue to enjoy them.