397 réponses à ce sujet

[DiebytheSword]

I still don't get the genral venom. You've made your point, Bioware is obviously listening, its not clear weather or not they are going to listen to you (any one individual who might range from mildly dissapointed to calling for firings). Just because your opinion differs, does not automatically make you right.

Things we can agree on: A lot of people didn't like the redesigned elements in DA2. A lot of people are obviously at least slightly dissapointed with DA2. Bioware has been collecting complaints about the game and discussing them internally.

Anything after that is pointless flamebait. You are wondering if what we've said since the game's launch is getting through. I'd say it has gotten through, whether or not it has swayed them is something else entirely.

The best course of action is not to cite metacritic and try to force them to publically admit that the game sucked (a position I disagree with), it's to criticise the game in a constructive manner, and thus continue to supply feed back to the devs.

[Ulous]

I personally like Dragonage 2, there are things I would change about it but the same could be said of any game I play, would I expect the developers to change the next game to suit me? No not at all! Why should others potentially suffer because of my opinion?

With the above in mind it is clear to me that the majority of people only speak out when being negative or when they feel let down and dissapointed, with that said all the people that are being negative about DA2 are the minority because the people that love it wont come on the internet to tell anyone, they will just be enjoying the game and looking forward to the next one.

Make someone happy and they will tell two people, make someone unhappy and they will tell ten people.

Ultimately it is my hope that ANY of the negativity isn't getting through, as I do not want a minority full of hate to dictate how developers make games. I am happy for a developer to make a game as they see fit, if I like the look of the game I will buy it, if I don't then I have the power and right to NOT buy that game.

Keep up the good work Bioware.


------------------------------------

[Well]

Druss99 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Facts: DA2 sold much less than DAO, despite being it's highly anticipated sequel. Well, they need to stop and think about it.If they make a game without real choice people will just go play Skyrim, which will be a better game in every other department. And a better action RPG.

And another fact: DA2 has much less content than Origins.

People will play Skyrim anyway. Its not really a one or the other situation, one game is coming out this year the other has no set release date... Unless you mean DA2 which is already out and Skyrimis months away so the two are close to a year apart.

Also hasn't DA:O been out alot longer and had an Ultimate Edition re-release? That would make the sales comparison a bit unfair.

Well to be fair, Origins first 10 weeks vs DA2 first ten weeks is like 2:1.  And DA2 started off ahead in the first week due to all the preorders, then sales just plummeted.

Thats fair enough. I thought he just meant sales overall the way he was talking. I still think you have to factor in the amount of people who didn't finish DA:O, what was it 50% or something? I can't remember the exact numbers. They are very unlikely to buy a sequel so sales were going to be down anyway. Bioware had to try something.

That 50% number the first time I heard it I had to laugh.How they could actually come up with that legitmately I have no idea.Guesstamation doesn't equal fact.

[Atakuma]

Well wrote...

That 50% number the first time I heard it I had to laugh.How they could actually come up with that legitmately I have no idea.Guesstamation doesn't equal fact.

They have technology that tracks what players do in the game, it is a fact.

[Realmzmaster]

Aaleel wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Facts: DA2 sold much less than DAO, despite being it's highly anticipated sequel. Well, they need to stop and think about it.If they make a game without real choice people will just go play Skyrim, which will be a better game in every other department. And a better action RPG.

And another fact: DA2 has much less content than Origins.

People will play Skyrim anyway. Its not really a one or the other situation, one game is coming out this year the other has no set release date... Unless you mean DA2 which is already out and Skyrimis months away so the two are close to a year apart.

Also hasn't DA:O been out alot longer and had an Ultimate Edition re-release? That would make the sales comparison a bit unfair.

Well to be fair, Origins first 10 weeks vs DA2 first ten weeks is like 2:1.  And DA2 started off ahead in the first week due to all the preorders, then sales just plummeted.

Thats fair enough. I thought he just meant sales overall the way he was talking. I still think you have to factor in the amount of people who didn't finish DA:O, what was it 50% or something? I can't remember the exact numbers. They are very unlikely to buy a sequel so sales were going to be down anyway. Bioware had to try something.

But if you go by the same method they used for Origins, only 50% of the people finished DA2.  But since only half the people bought it, they're losing fans.  They didn't keep the ones they had, and failed to bring in the new ones they were seeking.

The only numbers most businesses care about is did the product make a reasonable profit. Which meant the revenues exceed the expenses pass the breakeven point. If that occurs any other sale becomes gravy.

Lets face it COD did 5.6 million units sold in the first 5 days of release. DAO barely cracks 3.2 million and that took 2 years plus with DAO having a development time of 5 years. You can go figure the ROI and ROR.
People at EA and other game copmpanies are going to look at those numbers.

Bioware gambled the gamble did not pay off as they hoped. Now gamers say go back to what made DAO great. These were the same people who gave constructive criticism of DAO which Bioware listened to and created DA2.

Now you can agrue that they went to far in the direction they took, but many of the changes were requested by the fan base. Go and read the DAO forums you will see the posts.
You can say that the development time was to short which it was

[Aaleel]

Well wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Facts: DA2 sold much less than DAO, despite being it's highly anticipated sequel. Well, they need to stop and think about it.If they make a game without real choice people will just go play Skyrim, which will be a better game in every other department. And a better action RPG.

And another fact: DA2 has much less content than Origins.

People will play Skyrim anyway. Its not really a one or the other situation, one game is coming out this year the other has no set release date... Unless you mean DA2 which is already out and Skyrimis months away so the two are close to a year apart.

Also hasn't DA:O been out alot longer and had an Ultimate Edition re-release? That would make the sales comparison a bit unfair.

Well to be fair, Origins first 10 weeks vs DA2 first ten weeks is like 2:1.  And DA2 started off ahead in the first week due to all the preorders, then sales just plummeted.

Thats fair enough. I thought he just meant sales overall the way he was talking. I still think you have to factor in the amount of people who didn't finish DA:O, what was it 50% or something? I can't remember the exact numbers. They are very unlikely to buy a sequel so sales were going to be down anyway. Bioware had to try something.

That 50% number the first time I heard it I had to laugh.How they could actually come up with that legitmately I have no idea.Guesstamation doesn't equal fact.

Don't quote me on this, but I think they used certain achievements as flags, and tracked what percenatge of people got them. 

[Well]

Atakuma wrote...

Well wrote...

That 50% number the first time I heard it I had to laugh.How they could actually come up with that legitmately I have no idea.Guesstamation doesn't equal fact.

They have technology that tracks what players do in the game, it is a fact.

So your saying they invaded my computer and they can tell how far I have got in the game?

[Druss99]

Aaleel wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Thats fair enough. I thought he just meant sales overall the way he was talking. I still think you have to factor in the amount of people who didn't finish DA:O, what was it 50% or something? I can't remember the exact numbers. They are very unlikely to buy a sequel so sales were going to be down anyway. Bioware had to try something.

But if you go by the same method they used for Origins, only 50% of the people finished DA2.  But since only half the people bought it, they're losing fans.  They didn't keep the ones they had, and failed to bring in the new ones they were seeking.

I'm not saying it worked. I'm just saying I can see why they tried what they did.

Personally I think both games have huge flaws, DA2 tried to address some of them and produced some more. I enjoyed both games but theres still massive room for improvement. People really need to calm down about it though, the vitriol is both hilarious and sad. They are obviously reading the forums and will be taking some things onboard, people should be being constructive with their complaints instead of firing off angry "facts".

[Aaleel]

Druss99 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Thats fair enough. I thought he just meant sales overall the way he was talking. I still think you have to factor in the amount of people who didn't finish DA:O, what was it 50% or something? I can't remember the exact numbers. They are very unlikely to buy a sequel so sales were going to be down anyway. Bioware had to try something.

But if you go by the same method they used for Origins, only 50% of the people finished DA2.  But since only half the people bought it, they're losing fans.  They didn't keep the ones they had, and failed to bring in the new ones they were seeking.

I'm not saying it worked. I'm just saying I can see why they tried what they did.

Personally I think both games have huge flaws, DA2 tried to address some of them and produced some more. I enjoyed both games but theres still massive room for improvement. People really need to calm down about it though, the vitriol is both hilarious and sad. They are obviously reading the forums and will be taking some things onboard, people should be being constructive with their complaints instead of firing off angry "facts".

Oh I agree.  I don't agree with Mike Laidlaw on a lot of things.  But I respect him for actually coming into these forums with all the backlash and talking with us.  He even responded directly to a couple of my posts so I got some answers.  I'm not going to call him a liar or not take him at his word, but at the same time, no more pre-orders

[Atakuma]

Well wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Well wrote...

That 50% number the first time I heard it I had to laugh.How they could actually come up with that legitmately I have no idea.Guesstamation doesn't equal fact.

They have technology that tracks what players do in the game, it is a fact.

So your saying they invaded my computer and they can tell how far I have got in the game?

Yep, It's optional but it's on by default.

[Well]

Atakuma wrote...

Well wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Well wrote...

That 50% number the first time I heard it I had to laugh.How they could actually come up with that legitmately I have no idea.Guesstamation doesn't equal fact.

They have technology that tracks what players do in the game, it is a fact.

So your saying they invaded my computer and they can tell how far I have got in the game?

Yep, It's optional but it's on by default.

If your talking about upload feedback in options.I take it off.I dont know how many others do but I still cant see them getting a accurate picture.

[topster88]

Well wrote...

So your saying they invaded my computer and they can tell how far I have got in the game?

IIRC they check to see how many achievements people who own DA2 have and check to see if they have the one that you get when you beat the game. So to be fair, they aren't looking at anything anyone with internet access can't see anyway.

[Maria Caliban]

Well wrote...

If your talking about upload feedback in options.I take it off.I dont know how many others do but I still cant see them getting a accurate picture.

They also know roughly how many people turn off the feedback option.

[Atakuma]

Edit: Refer to Maria's post, it's better.

Modifié par Atakuma, 01 juin 2011 - 09:25 .

[Well]

topster88 wrote...

Well wrote...

So your saying they invaded my computer and they can tell how far I have got in the game?

IIRC they check to see how many achievements people who own DA2 have and check to see if they have the one that you get when you beat the game. So to be fair, they aren't looking at anything anyone with internet access can't see anyway.

Sounds reasonable.I still don't believe that 50% dont finish.

[Well]

Atakuma wrote...

Well wrote...

If your talking about upload feedback in options.I take it off.I dont know how many others do but I still cant see them getting a accurate picture.

They obviously aren't going to get everones stats but they believe it is accurate enough or else the wouldn't bother using itas a means to make improvements.

Well if DA2 is the case for it making improvements.Epic Fail.My personal opinion.

[Icinix]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Well wrote...

If your talking about upload feedback in options.I take it off.I dont know how many others do but I still cant see them getting a accurate picture.

They also know roughly how many people turn off the feedback option.

Its not the stats that may or may not give an accurate picture - its more their interpretation of the stats.

[topster88]

Icinix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Well wrote...

If your talking about upload feedback in options.I take it off.I dont know how many others do but I still cant see them getting a accurate picture.

They also know roughly how many people turn off the feedback option.

Its not the stats that may or may not give an accurate picture - its more their interpretation of the stats.

I think it's fair to say that, in most cases, more than only half the people who buy a game care to finish it

[Icinix]

topster88 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Well wrote...

If your talking about upload feedback in options.I take it off.I dont know how many others do but I still cant see them getting a accurate picture.

They also know roughly how many people turn off the feedback option.

Its not the stats that may or may not give an accurate picture - its more their interpretation of the stats.

I think it's fair to say that, in most cases, more than only half the people who buy a game care to finish it

I agree - I've got a crazy big collection of games (I've kept every single game I've bought - harking right back to 5 1/4 floppies ) and there is more than half that I've never finished - BUT - I love digging a lot of them out and playing them, and they consume me for a time.

Failure to finish a game should not be considered failure of the game itself.

E.g - COD - I've finished all of those games - but every time I do, I'm reminded I just spent X dollars on a game I finished in under 5 hours and am left feeling unsatisfied. But I've never finished Master of Orion - But damn - its up there with hours of enjoyment Ive built up.

[Elhanan]

topster88 wrote...

You don't need to take my word for it, look around this site and others. You'll see that the obvious majority doesn't like what DA2 did.

The equations are flawed? What? You don't like the method of averageing?

The difference is that the majority think TESB is better. Not so with DA2.

You need me to prove the appeal went to casual gamers? Maybe you'd like to take the evidence straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.gamespot....final-thoughts/
"We certainly knew there would be some friction between what Origins
players have come to expect and what Dragon Age II delivers."

Perhaps the vocal majority dislike DA2; perhaps not. The fact is that you cannot say this with certainty.

Perhaps the equations are not simple averages, as equations used for other scores are altered. See link:

http://www.brainygam...metacritic.html

Again, you think you know what the majority think or feel; nice pychic gift. But even if it were the majority, it does now weaken other opinions, or perhaps reflect the intent of the aforementioned reviewer.

And you are the one dismissing other genre's as casual; not I.

Being one that has played FRPG's for over 30 years, I have seen my fair share of elitism, prejudice, and bigotry in a number of areas. Bioware see's potential clients, and I see other consumers who may not have seen a more story driven genre that I prefer to play. You are the one that sees them as lesser players; your problem, and not the industry itself.

[Dubya75]

topster88 wrote...

Is it not obvious that the vast majority of players do not like the casual direction DA2 went?

Is it not obvious that the sales figures for DA2 were bloated because so many fans were expecting more of DA:O (and even *then* DA2 did not sell that much more than DA:O despite marketing it way more than DA:O was), and that sales for DA3 will suffer becuase of it?

Is it not obvious from all the user reviews on metacritic just how many people hate how much you've changed DA?

Is it also not obvious that the stark contrast of "critic" reviews only exist because EA paid them for high grades?

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gamepley. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

Whoa, hang on there fella, are you speaking for all of us?
I don't remember giving you that permission.
I happen to like the gameplay.
I happen to like the story.
I happen to like the level design (not the recycling though)
I have no real problem with the equipment, the inventory or the button mashing.

So....you were saying?

Sure there are many things I don't like about DA2, but none of them are on your list. 
In future, please refrain from assuming the entire fan base is behind you. Mistake.

Modifié par Dubya75, 01 juin 2011 - 10:11 .

[Well]

Elhanan wrote...

topster88 wrote...

You don't need to take my word for it, look around this site and others. You'll see that the obvious majority doesn't like what DA2 did.

The equations are flawed? What? You don't like the method of averageing?

The difference is that the majority think TESB is better. Not so with DA2.

You need me to prove the appeal went to casual gamers? Maybe you'd like to take the evidence straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.gamespot....final-thoughts/
"We certainly knew there would be some friction between what Origins
players have come to expect and what Dragon Age II delivers."

Perhaps the vocal majority dislike DA2; perhaps not. The fact is that you cannot say this with certainty.

Perhaps the equations are not simple averages, as equations used for other scores are altered. See link:

http://www.brainygam...metacritic.html

Again, you think you know what the majority think or feel; nice pychic gift. But even if it were the majority, it does now weaken other opinions, or perhaps reflect the intent of the aforementioned reviewer.

And you are the one dismissing other genre's as casual; not I.

Being one that has played FRPG's for over 30 years, I have seen my fair share of elitism, prejudice, and bigotry in a number of areas. Bioware see's potential clients, and I see other consumers who may not have seen a more story driven genre that I prefer to play. You are the one that sees them as lesser players; your problem, and not the industry itself.

lol

[Corto81]

Dubya75 wrote...



Whoa, hang on there fella, are you speaking for all of us?
I don't remember giving you that permission.
I happen to like the gameplay.
I happen to like the story.
I happen to like the level design (not the recycling though)
I have no real problem with the equipment, the inventory or the button mashing.

So....you were saying?

Sure there are many things I don't like about DA2, but none of them are on your list. 
In future, please refrain from assuming the entire fan base is behind you. Mistake.

He doesn't say he speaks for everyone.

But it's sorta obvious by the bad-to-mediocre reviews and the rather dismal sales (for a sequel of a massively successful game) that the game didn't sit well with the majority of people (not ALL, no).

[Captain_Obvious]

Elhanan wrote...

Being one that has played FRPG's for over 30 years, I have seen my fair share of elitism, prejudice, and bigotry in a number of areas. Bioware see's potential clients, and I see other consumers who may not have seen a more story driven genre that I prefer to play. You are the one that sees them as lesser players; your problem, and not the industry itself.

Totally agree.  If Bioware changes the game to try to draw in a larger audience to make more money, that's their call.  Since the world doesn't revolve around me, they are under no obligation to cater to me.  No game is perfect.  Enemies dropping out of the sky?  Lame.  One cave in the entire game?  Stupid.  Armour you find but can't use?  Idiotic.  Pretty much everything else I'm okay with. 

[Zanallen]

Personally, I chalk up the low metacritic user reviews to knee jerk reactions and people posting with their "passion" rather than objectivity. There are 305 0 scores for DA 2 on the PC page. As long as a game actually works, there is no way it should receive a 0.