397 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

Elhanan wrote...

They messed up? They need to be told? Do you read these before posting?
You hardly speak for me; perhaps others, and do not appear to be one that knows of charity, while Bioware proves it.
But I doubt all the CoD crowd is elsewhere; the TW2 sure crowd ain't....

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Winston Churchill

Is it impossible for someone to like Witcher 2 and like Dragon Age 2? I play rpgs after all not shooters. CoD on the other hand is a completely different, game, genre and no where near a good story how would that DA2 possibly draw them in? Maybe some decided to try it out who knows but the game left incomplete to a lot of people. 

Biowares prove what that exactly? That they are business? What could you possibly know.

"Quoting: the act of repeating erroneously the words of another." - Ambrose Bierce 

Elhanan wrote...

Kinda hard to appeal to the CoD crowd to play a RPG.

Laidlaw didn't seem to think so.

Modifié par Ringo12, 03 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ringo12 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

topster88 wrote...

You aren't being much of a BW representative if your best advice is to "go play another game"

I do not believe they rep BW; just another fan that is perhaps tired of the whining.

Yeesh, does everything you post need to be mired in condescension? I never claimed DA2 wasn't an RPG, only that it's not a very good one.

... Because they strived to appeal to other fans outside the RPG genre. Or did I misread your many posts?

I do not mean to be condescending, as I dislike it when I see it in others. I know I am not better than others; some seem to need proof; hence the Quote key. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Well I'm a fan and I'm tired of the people who think everything Bioware does is good. They messed up and need to be told this isn't a charity we pay for their stuff. I have no problem with a developer trying to get more fans and appeal to others but they alienated a lot of people with DA2 and tried getting fans of Call of Duty. Guess what the CoD crowd is playing...Call of Duty.

"It is a good thing for an educated man to read books of quotations." -- Winston Churchill

Agreed with you 100%. But there is so much I can take from the so called critics when reason has been replaced by non-constructive posts. The same goes for the so called defenders. Their blind fanatism is the source of many flame wars here. I see both happening in this and other threads. If that's supposed to be trendy than I rather be old fashioned.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 03 juin 2011 - 05:18 .

[topster88]

Elhanan wrote...

Valid complaints are fine; even encouraged by the mods (ie; Constructive Crit thread). Then there are threads like this....

And this is not a valid complaint toward Laidow's comments on Gamespot? That he seems to be almost entirely dismissive of the general reception of DA2?

Kinda hard to appeal to the CoD crowd to play a RPG sans RPG; ain't it.

Simple concept, huh?

[Elhanan]

Ringo12 wrote...

Is it impossible for someone to like Witcher 2 and like Dragon Age 2? I play rpgs after all not shooters. CoD on the other hand is a completely different, game, genre and no where near a good story how would that DA2 possibly draw them in? Maybe some decided to try it out who knows but the game left incomplete to a lot of people. 

Biowares prove what that exactly? That they are business? What could you possibly know.

"Quoting: the act of repeating erroneously the words of another." - Ambrose Bierce 

I do not play shooters, either. But I do not see how making  the RPG more appealing to other genre's can be unless they dilute the product too much. Now I am guessing that much of the fuss seen here is on this idea, but after several weks on constant whining, this should be evident.

And yes; you can play both; just making the point that the TW2 crowd seems to do this and complain, so the CoD crowd is certainly as capable.


Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you. - Groucho Marx

[ozenglish]

Question 1: Honestly no, I have seen a lot of the people who post the dislike of the game, are the same people thrashing the dead horse over and over again. I understand you want to be heard, but rehashing it in multiple forums is not the best way.

Question 2: I am not going to get into DAO vs DA2 stats, but there is a potential for harm to sales of DA:Whatever because of repeated trashing of the game. I previously have stated that I enjoyed it, and have stopped playing until DLC comes out. 

Question 3: Honestly, I don't use metacritic reviews on much. Maybe hardware where there are logical statistics to be measured, but measuring something on 750,000 or whatever emotional stats is not wise regardless as my opinions will always be different from the next, even if we agree on 10 points, there could be 30 that we don't.

Question 4: This is like asking was the "insert famous person here" only given their position because they bribed someone? That is borderline slander in some countries.

That last bit... not all Bioware consumers did not like the game, otherwise, there wouldn't be people saying I liked the game. Sure it had it's flaws, but DAO had just as many in my opinion, and it had the higher metacritic score.

As to whether it can be clearer or not is purely based on perspective. I understand that you feel that your enjoyment of the game has been negated for whatever reason. But as that you have failed to list them in your post, I can't feel or imply that I understand. Please, instead of just lashing out, think and write them out concisely and put them in the constructive criticism thread, that way, they will eventually catch up.

[Elhanan]

topster88 wrote...

Is it not obvious that the vast majority of players do not like the casual direction DA2 went?

Is it not obvious that the sales figures for DA2 were bloated because so many fans were expecting more of DA:O (and even *then* DA2 did not sell that much more than DA:O despite marketing it way more than DA:O was), and that sales for DA3 will suffer becuase of it?

Is it not obvious from all the user reviews on metacritic just how many people hate how much you've changed DA?

Is it also not obvious that the stark contrast of "critic" reviews only exist because EA paid them for high grades?

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gamepley. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

Is this a valid complaint? In my opinion; No; just another lame duck covered in whine....

[Chromie]

Elhanan wrote...

I do not play shooters, either. But I do not see how making  the RPG more appealing to other genre's can be unless they dilute the product too much. Now I am guessing that much of the fuss seen here is on this idea, but after several weks on constant whining, this should be evident.

And yes; you can play both; just making the point that the TW2 crowd seems to do this and complain, so the CoD crowd is certainly as capable.

CoD crowd is capable ofcourse but they don't because they couldn't care less about DA2. Maybe the people who are enjoying Witcher 2 compare it to DA2 because they got a sequel that actually improved upon the original. It's also the most recent rpg. A new engine and even better story then DA2. Hell Geralt is much more fleshed out then Hawke and decisions carry much more weight then anything Hawke does. He or she isn't even phased by what happens.

Bioware has diluted their product. You can tell by playing DA2. Some people are just in denial.

[ozenglish]

Elhanan wrote...

topster88 wrote...

Is it not obvious that the vast majority of players do not like the casual direction DA2 went?

Is it not obvious that the sales figures for DA2 were bloated because so many fans were expecting more of DA:O (and even *then* DA2 did not sell that much more than DA:O despite marketing it way more than DA:O was), and that sales for DA3 will suffer becuase of it?

Is it not obvious from all the user reviews on metacritic just how many people hate how much you've changed DA?

Is it also not obvious that the stark contrast of "critic" reviews only exist because EA paid them for high grades?

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gamepley. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

Is this a valid complaint? In my opinion; No; just another lame duck covered in whine....

But duck and wine go so well together....

[Elhanan]

Ringo12 wrote...

CoD crowd is capable ofcourse but they don't because they couldn't care less about DA2. Maybe the people who are enjoying Witcher 2 compare it to DA2 because they got a sequel that actually improved upon the original. It's also the most recent rpg. A new engine and even better story then DA2. Hell Geralt is much more fleshed out then Hawke and decisions carry much more weight then anything Hawke does. He or she isn't even phased by what happens.

Bioware has diluted their product. You can tell by playing DA2. Some people are just in denial.

CoD crowd might find RPG's appealing, but should find out in a RPG. To gain that appeal, personally I would make it in marketing (eg; action focused commercial)  and not in the gameplay itself.

And your opinion is just that; not everyones.

[topster88]

Elhanan wrote...

Is this a valid complaint? In my opinion; No; just another lame duck covered in whine....

When BW seems almost oblivious of it? Yes, it is.

[Chromie]

topster88 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Is this a valid complaint? In my opinion; No; just another lame duck covered in whine....

When BW seems almost oblivious of it? Yes, it is.

Elhanan refuses to believe Bioware can do wrong.

[Elhanan]

Ringo12 wrote...

topster88 wrote...

When BW seems almost oblivious of it? Yes, it is.

Elhanan refuses to believe Bioware can do wrong.

When Bioware presents evidence to the contrary (eg; CC thread, recent DA2 patch, etc), I will take their word as they have earned my trust; not so for the latest Hater of the day.

And when the poster appears to be rude, demanding, and abrasive, I could not blame BW for ignoring them either. But they don't claim that; more likely using more salt than usual, though.

Bioware can make mistakes; they can also earn respect, and have.

[topster88]

Elhanan wrote...
When Bioware presents evidence to the contrary (eg; CC thread, recent DA2 patch, etc), I will take their word as they have earned my trust; 

Ok

http://www.rpgwatch....ead.php?t=13033

You have to take a read of what the fans are saying, what reviews are
saying, and what the non-fans are saying. Are there people out there who
are saying, "I could not play Origins, but love Dragon Age II" or "I
couldn't play Origins and this is more of the same." You have to keep
your ear to the ground. Look at forums. Take a look at what comments are
coming up. What are the common concerns? What are the common
perceptions? I think the big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again,
because we've done this.

[Elhanan]

topster88 wrote...

Ok....

1 - My use of 'When' in the snipped quote means 'As' currently; As Bioware presents evidence to the contrary....

2 - Link and quote fixed for context:

http://www.gamespot....final-thoughts/


GS: Regarding the process by which you guys gather feedback and assess whether it's viable for the next game, is it the same process you used when Origins shipped, or have you learned more about the validity of fan feedback this time around?
ML: It's always valid. You have to take a read of what the fans are saying, what reviews are saying, and what the non-fans are saying. Are there people out there who are saying, "I could not play Origins, but love Dragon Age II" or "I couldn't play Origins and this is more of the same." You have to keep your ear to the ground. Look at forums. Take a look at what comments are coming up. What are the common concerns? What are the common perceptions? I think the big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again, because we've done this. I think, as a team, we're quite happy with what we've done with Dragon Age II, and this is establishing a solid foundation that keeps a lot, in fact almost everything I want to keep about Origins, but still has tons of room to grow and, frankly, a more viable future for the franchise. It's one that's more sustainable because we brought the world to a place that's inherently more interesting than "Yay, we beat the Blight. Good for us!"

3 - "It's always valid.","You have to keep your ear to the ground. Look at the forums. Take a look at what comments are coming up,"  as in 'We Are Listening'.

4 - Evidence will be available in DA3; some evidence seen in patch v1.03.

5 - You have not been personally wronged by Bioware. Pls seek therapy.

[KBomb]

Ringo12 wrote...

CoD crowd is capable ofcourse but they don't because they couldn't care less about DA2. Maybe the people who are enjoying Witcher 2 compare it to DA2 because they got a sequel that actually improved upon the original. It's also the most recent rpg. A new engine and even better story then DA2. Hell Geralt is much more fleshed out then Hawke and decisions carry much more weight then anything Hawke does. He or she isn't even phased by what happens.

Bioware has diluted their product. You can tell by playing DA2. Some people are just in denial.

Your entire post is nothing more than your fleshed out opinion. I find it really amusing that you find you can speak for the “CoD crowd” as if you know the statistics on the likes and dislikes and choices they make when playing and choosing video games. You’re not alone, though. I see a lot of people on here making the same baseless assumptions that seem to parrot each other. It makes me think they know very little of this “crowd” and are simply following the popular thought and stereotypical opinion of those who hold themselves above others simply because they think a video game genre qualifies them as smarter.

It also amuses me that people who love, or even just like DA2--even after admitting--it had flaws are branded by sweeping statements about how they think Bioware can do no wrong, or they must be BDF, or fan boys. Yet, the same people are so bent on their criticism that they refuse to believe that any other opinion exists on the matter and that they must be right because reviews back them up and that if you’re a true hardcore gamer you can’t possible like anything other than what other true hardcore gamers like. You’re right about one thing: Some people are just in denial.

[David Gaider]

topster88 wrote...
Is it not obvious that the vast majority of players do not like the casual direction DA2 went?

Which players? The vast majority of all players? No, I don't think that's obvious at all.

Is it not obvious that the sales figures for DA2 were bloated because so many fans were expecting more of DA:O (and even *then* DA2 did not sell that much more than DA:O despite marketing it way more than DA:O was), and that sales for DA3 will suffer becuase of it?

Clearly there are some (or many) people that were disappointed by DA2. The implication that everyone who bought DA2 who'd liked DAO was dissatisfied doesn't really follow, unless you prefer to believe that posts on internet forums constitute the opinions of all players? While that certainly doesn't mean that people who don't post don't feel that way, it no more evidence that they do.

Whether the sales of any potential DA3 will suffer will depend on what kind of game it turns out to be, and the amount of feedback we take into account. As with any game, that feedback will need to be weighed, as there is no single opinon among fans... despite how much some people would like us to think it's so. We'll take criticisms to heart, see what we can change and what we want to change, and go from there.

At that point, I'd suggest that someone who is still leery pay attention to info about the game or try any demo that comes out (if there is one; I've no information on such a thing at this point) and make an informed decision on whether or not to buy the game then. Surely that's not an unreasonable expectation.

Is it not obvious from all the user reviews on metacritic just how many people hate how much you've changed DA?

It's obvious that people who post user reviews on metacritic hate it, certainly. Or at least some of them.

Is it also not obvious that the stark contrast of "critic" reviews only exist because EA paid them for high grades?

I think it's obvious that reviewers have starkly contrasting opinions on what makes a good game, just as fans do. Which is not surprising, as many of them are fans themselves. If only negative reviews or user reviews on metacritic are supposed to be examples of honest journalism, then I really don't know what to say.

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gamepley. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

It's clear you dislike these things. It's also clear there are others who do so, but you're not going to convince us that this is universal. I know the immediate reaction from my saying this is "oh Bioware is just ignoring the criticism and thinks everything's perfect"-- which is typical for the Internet, as only extremes of opinons exist here, but simply not so. Look for Mike's post on things we are looking at currently for improvements. When we have more information to share, we'll do so, but at the end of the day it'll be up to us to decide what we need to change and what we need to keep.

If your opinion is "keep nothing", then I'm afraid that's not going to happen. There are things in DA2 that we're very happy with-- or which are, at least, heading in the direction we like... just as there are things that didn't work like we'd hoped. As for what we work on, that's still to be determined... but the fan feedback we take into account will come from all our fans, and not simply the loudest.

Sorry you didn't like the game. Hopefully what we make next is more to your taste. It might be, and we'll do our best, but from the tone of some posts like this it's truly difficult sometimes to tell if such a thing is even possible-- or desireable.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 juin 2011 - 03:55 .

[John Epler]

PurebredCorn wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

... but the fan feedback we take into account will come from all our fans, and not simply the loudest.

This is very good to know.

Except yours, PurebredCorn.

It's the goldfish.

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry you didn't like the game. Hopefully what we make next is more to your taste. It might be, and we'll do our best, but from the tone of some posts like this it's truly difficult sometimes to tell if such a thing is even possible-- or desireable.

People address their concerns because they enjoyed the Dragon Age universe originally, and they hope that their concerns get noticed because they don't want to see the problems repeated. There are issues with DA2 that people take issue with: Some find it odd that in a tale about templars and mages, there's no mage POV, even as an illegal mage Hawke. For a sequel to a game where choices had some impact, it's odd that choices don't really have an impact anymore, and even the two endings are virtually identical to one another. The VO is an issue when the dialogue choices given to the player don't actually reflect what's verbally said. People simply want to see these issues rectified in the future.

[Dormiglione]

David Gaider wrote...

If your opinion is "keep nothing", then I'm afraid that's not going to happen. There are things in DA2 that we're very happy with-- or which are, at least, heading in the direction we like... just as there are things that didn't work like we'd hoped. As for what we work on, that's still to be determined... but the fan feedback we take into account will come from all our fans, and not simply the loudest.

How about telling us what you personally disliked in DA2?

[upsettingshorts]

Dormiglione wrote...

How about telling us what you personally disliked in DA2?

Off the top of my head I can think of two things DG has said either didn't work so well or could be improved; companion dialogue could be better frontloaded so the player has a better idea of who they are and what they're about earlier on, and Friend/Rivalry being a good system that already needs a bit of work and improvement.  Oh, and Act 1 might have grown bigger than they wanted or expected and tended to drag on a bit.

BioWare has been talking about the game, you know, albeit mostly in threads where posters aren't actively calling for their heads to be lopped off and displayed outside EA headquarters as a warning to publishers everywhere.

[Complistic]

David I think fan frustration at this point is a result of knowing Bioware is capable of making such a better game than it did. DA2 was a sequel to Origins. Sequels tend to be bigger better, more expansive, perhaps refined games than their predecessors. I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

Is DA2 a bad game? No not really, it's quite a bit better than most of the garbage that comes out these days. Is it a bad bioware game? Yes, it's awful. People have expectations of sequels and DA2 missed them all.

[ipgd]

Dormiglione wrote...

How about telling us what you personally disliked in DA2?

Do you honestly care?

I don't suspect there's much point in him posting anything at all, really. If people want to hate DA2 and Bioware and ignore anything that doesn't fit within that narrative, they will. And they do.

[upsettingshorts]

Complistic wrote...
I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

It is possible. 

It's possible for someone to view DA2's story as far superior to DA:O's - like, me for example - but feel that the sequel failed to succeed in other ways, some of which effected how well the story was told. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juin 2011 - 04:21 .