397 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Complistic wrote...
I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

Is it a bad bioware game? Yes, it's awful. People have expectations of sequels and DA2 missed them all.

1) If it's not possible for him to say so (Whatever the reason): I'll definitely say so.

2) Speak for yourself. Mine weren't missed at all, some were actually met/surpassed.

[Dormiglione]

ipgd wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...

How about telling us what you personally disliked in DA2?

Do you honestly care?

I don't suspect there's much point in him posting anything at all, really. If people want to hate DA2 and Bioware and ignore anything that doesn't fit within that narrative, they will. And they do.

honestly, if i didnt cared i would not have asked David about his opinion.

[Complistic]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Complistic wrote...
I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

It is possible. 

It's possible for someone to view DA2's story as far superior to DA:O's - like, me for example - but feel that the sequel failed to succeed in other ways, some of which effected how well the story was told. 

I agree, I think the story potential is there, but like most things in DA2, it wasn't fully realized. I've high hopes for DA3 if they decide to take their time on it. Though not high enough to buy it without reading reviews on it.

[Well]

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry you didn't like the game. Hopefully what we make next is more to your taste. It might be, and we'll do our best, but from the tone of some posts like this it's truly difficult sometimes to tell if such a thing is even possible-- or desireable.

People address their concerns because they enjoyed the Dragon Age universe originally, and they hope that their concerns get noticed because they don't want to see the problems repeated. There are issues with DA2 that people take issue with: Some find it odd that in a tale about templars and mages, there's no mage POV, even as an illegal mage Hawke. For a sequel to a game where choices had some impact, it's odd that choices don't really have an impact anymore, and even the two endings are virtually identical to one another. The VO is an issue when the dialogue choices given to the player don't actually reflect what's verbally said. People simply want to see these issues rectified in the future.

Wow like OMG I think I agree with you on most of that.I did not feel Hawke was my chr as I did the warden.To many holes in the storyline in my opinion.I will wait awhile after DA 3 comes out before I purchase it.That is if I do.The funny thing is I saw alot of potential in the game.They just didnt deliever...coffee time

[Dormiglione]

Persephone wrote...

Complistic wrote...
I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

Is it a bad bioware game? Yes, it's awful. People have expectations of sequels and DA2 missed them all.

1) If it's not possible for him to say so (Whatever the reason): I'll definitely say so.

2) Speak for yourself. Mine weren't missed at all, some were actually met/surpassed.

But you agree that DA2 polarized the customers? That there are undeniable issues like "reused areas" that are not something that could have met your expectations?

Modifié par Dormiglione, 03 juin 2011 - 04:29 .

[HTTP 404]

nope, none of what we say get through to them. The devs just like interacting with us on the forums for kicks and giggles. and trust me there are a lot of giggles.

[Complistic]

Persephone wrote...

Complistic wrote...
I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

Is it a bad bioware game? Yes, it's awful. People have expectations of sequels and DA2 missed them all.

1) If it's not possible for him to say so (Whatever the reason): I'll definitely say so.

2) Speak for yourself. Mine weren't missed at all, some were actually met/surpassed.

I was being pretty in general. I post a little on quite a few gaming forums and I was just sharing what in my opinion the reason DA2 gets the seething hatred it gets outside the bioware social site.

[hoorayforicecream]

Complistic wrote...

I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

It's your opinion and you're free to say so, but I personally thought that the character development in DA2 was far superior to DA:O. The growth in DA:O was minimal for most characters and often more akin to flipping a switch ("hardening" characters) than it was a gradual process with observable growth.

I found myself feeling for the DA2 characters that I liked much more than the DA:O ones, that's for sure. I loved how I could watch them grow differently depending on whether I cultivated a rivalry or a friendship, or even not at all if I ignored them. This might not have been the case for you, and I feel sorry for you if so.

I get the feeling that DA2 did several things very very wrong for certain vocal fans, and because they feel so affronted by those wrongings, they blame the entirety of the game. I think that's a plum recipe for throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because I do think there are several things they did very right with the game, and I dearly hope they bring back for the next one.

[Persephone]

Dormiglione wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Complistic wrote...
I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

Is it a bad bioware game? Yes, it's awful. People have expectations of sequels and DA2 missed them all.

1) If it's not possible for him to say so (Whatever the reason): I'll definitely say so.

2) Speak for yourself. Mine weren't missed at all, some were actually met/surpassed.

But you agree that DA2 polarized the customers? That there are undeniable issues like "reused areas" that are not something that could have met your expectations?

Yep. Only that's something entirely different.

[SilentK]

My two cents. I wrote in the constructive criticism-tread. On the plus side, voice with so many different choices and the wheel which I really like. Friendship and rivalry was great in my book and I wish we could have had that in DA:O. Intention symbols are really really useful and I miss them now when I play my FemShep in ME2. I think that they could have used their areas differently, they are very pretty but a bit overused. And the ending was a little of a anti-climax. But all in all, I had a lot of fun in DA2, 3 finished Hawkes so far and soon I'll start a 4:th. I have never seen a perfect game, there is always something that you personally wish could have been different. I think that bioware will listen and make their own decisions about how they want to go with the next game.

For the record, I have several friends who loved the game and I gave it a 8 or 9 on metacritic. Don't remember really. And I do personally prefer my companions in DA2. That's just me. I think having a voice is what made me click so well with them this time around. You can say that you personally like or dislike something. But don't think that you speak for everyone.

Modifié par SilentK, 03 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Aaleel]

Well they've been on the boards recently, responded to some of the posts directly, Mike Laidlaw even responded to a couple of mine, so they are listening. They say they'll try to find a middle ground between Origins and DA2, so I guess they know they went a little too far with some of the changes.

What "middle ground" actually turns out to be remains to be seen. There are some things that if they keep them in DA3 are deal breakers and a no buy. But no matter what I have respect for them for even coming onto the forums with the level of anger here at times.

Modifié par Aaleel, 03 juin 2011 - 04:44 .

[mousestalker]

I can guarantee what is getting through to Bioware, the developers and all those in charge, are the sales figures.

We do not have access to reliable sales figures as those inside the company. But every decision made from hereon will very likely be made with the sales results from DAO and DA2 in mind.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

David Gaider wrote...

topster88 wrote...
Is it not obvious that the vast majority of players do not like the casual direction DA2 went?

Which players? The vast majority of all players? No, I don't think that's obvious at all.

Is it not obvious that the sales figures for DA2 were bloated because so many fans were expecting more of DA:O (and even *then* DA2 did not sell that much more than DA:O despite marketing it way more than DA:O was), and that sales for DA3 will suffer becuase of it?

Clearly there are some (or many) people that were disappointed by DA2. The implication that everyone who bought DA2 who'd liked DAO was dissatisfied doesn't really follow, unless you prefer to believe that posts on internet forums constitute the opinions of all players? While that certainly doesn't mean that people who don't post don't feel that way, it no more evidence that they do.

Whether the sales of any potential DA3 will suffer will depend on what kind of game it turns out to be, and the amount of feedback we take into account. As with any game, that feedback will need to be weighed, as there is no single opinon among fans... despite how much some people would like us to think it's so. We'll take criticisms to heart, see what we can change and what we want to change, and go from there.

At that point, I'd suggest that someone who is still leery pay attention to info about the game or try any demo that comes out (if there is one; I've no information on such a thing at this point) and make an informed decision on whether or not to buy the game then. Surely that's not an unreasonable expectation.

Is it not obvious from all the user reviews on metacritic just how many people hate how much you've changed DA?

It's obvious that people who post user reviews on metacritic hate it, certainly. Or at least some of them.

Is it also not obvious that the stark contrast of "critic" reviews only exist because EA paid them for high grades?

I think it's obvious that reviewers have starkly contrasting opinions on what makes a good game, just as fans do. Which is not surprising, as many of them are fans themselves. If only negative reviews or user reviews on metacritic are supposed to be examples of honest journalism, then I really don't know what to say.

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gamepley. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

It's clear you dislike these things. It's also clear there are others who do so, but you're not going to convince us that this is universal. I know the immediate reaction from my saying this is "oh Bioware is just ignoring the criticism and thinks everything's perfect"-- which is typical for the Internet, as only extremes of opinons exist here, but simply not so. Look for Mike's post on things we are looking at currently for improvements. When we have more information to share, we'll do so, but at the end of the day it'll be up to us to decide what we need to change and what we need to keep.

If your opinion is "keep nothing", then I'm afraid that's not going to happen. There are things in DA2 that we're very happy with-- or which are, at least, heading in the direction we like... just as there are things that didn't work like we'd hoped. As for what we work on, that's still to be determined... but the fan feedback we take into account will come from all our fans, and not simply the loudest.

Sorry you didn't like the game. Hopefully what we make next is more to your taste. It might be, and we'll do our best, but from the tone of some posts like this it's truly difficult sometimes to tell if such a thing is even possible-- or desireable.

It's clear there's quite a number of people who feel the same way David. Much like there were quite a few of us who repetely expressed concerns during development that either fell on deaf ears or got lost in the Gaider snark brand™ of replies.

Maybe if you folks didn't have the idea of retconning half the world's lore, reusing the same art assests for many areas, and having a fairly disjointed total story, completely redoing the art style and half of the game's mechanics among other things, then shoving it out the door in 18 months. The reception would have been warmer.

[Well]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Complistic wrote...

I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

It's your opinion and you're free to say so, but I personally thought that the character development in DA2 was far superior to DA:O. The growth in DA:O was minimal for most characters and often more akin to flipping a switch ("hardening" characters) than it was a gradual process with observable growth.

I found myself feeling for the DA2 characters that I liked much more than the DA:O ones, that's for sure. I loved how I could watch them grow differently depending on whether I cultivated a rivalry or a friendship, or even not at all if I ignored them. This might not have been the case for you, and I feel sorry for you if so.

I get the feeling that DA2 did several things very very wrong for certain vocal fans, and because they feel so affronted by those wrongings, they blame the entirety of the game. I think that's a plum recipe for throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because I do think there are several things they did very right with the game, and I dearly hope they bring back for the next one.

Well as far as chr developement I thought it was terrible.That is my opinion.It's no spoilers so all I can do is grit my teeth because there are several perfect examples of why.Oh well.As far as certain fans being vocal I noticed that some people tend to have blinders on.Their are some folks that get bent out of shape if anyone is critical of the game.I don't remember any fans of DA2 saying anything to them.The mods yes but that is it.Everyone has a right to opinion.Some folks forget that.

[hoorayforicecream]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It's clear there's quite a number of people who feel the same way David. Much like there were quite a few of us who repetely expressed concerns during development that either fell on deaf ears or got lost in the Gaider snark brand™ of replies.

There's a big potential difference between "quite a number of people" and "the vast majority". Hypothetically speaking, ten thousand people is quite a number. However, ten thousand out of two million is nowhere near a vast majority.

[Aaleel]

No one even Bioware will ever know the exact number of people who disliked the game. People would be crazy to think it's 90%, but they would be just as crazy to think it's 10%.

Whatever it is, it's probably more than Bioware thought it would be, and more than they would want.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It's clear there's quite a number of people who feel the same way David. Much like there were quite a few of us who repetely expressed concerns during development that either fell on deaf ears or got lost in the Gaider snark brand™ of replies.

There's a big potential difference between "quite a number of people" and "the vast majority". Hypothetically speaking, ten thousand people is quite a number. However, ten thousand out of two million is nowhere near a vast majority.

Oh for sure, I'd put the number far higher than just a vocal minority like David suggests. It's not hard to go to any gaming website, find a post on DA2 and see the vast amount of negative in regards to the game.

In all the years I've been a Bioware fan, I've never once seen sweeping negative response towards one of their titles until DA2.

Pretending it's not true doesn't make it so. The fact that sales numbers dropped like a brick in compariison to Orgins speaks volumes imo.

[erynnar]

Elhanan wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

CoD crowd is capable ofcourse but they don't because they couldn't care less about DA2. Maybe the people who are enjoying Witcher 2 compare it to DA2 because they got a sequel that actually improved upon the original. It's also the most recent rpg. A new engine and even better story then DA2. Hell Geralt is much more fleshed out then Hawke and decisions carry much more weight then anything Hawke does. He or she isn't even phased by what happens.

Bioware has diluted their product. You can tell by playing DA2. Some people are just in denial.

CoD crowd might find RPG's appealing, but should find out in a RPG. To gain that appeal, personally I would make it in marketing (eg; action focused commercial)  and not in the gameplay itself.

And your opinion is just that; not everyones.

Yes, I agree with Ringo, which is just my opinion (which is like a certain body part we all have and they all stink). However, El, I point to the sales. After the initial bump from pre-orders...not pretty. Does that mean the majority felt it was watered down? Maybe. Is that the majority? *shrugs* won't know until DLC or DA3, really, but as it stands doesn't look good for the trying to catch the CoD, JRPG, Anime crowd.

Does it mean they managed to get the snazzy new crowd they were looking for? Enough of them to make up for the loss of an established and large foundation fan base they had? Again, until DA3, can't tell. Was it profitable enough for BioWare? Apparently so, we're getting DA3 (and while I am cyincally cautious, I am curious to see what happens).

[MDT1]

David Gaider wrote...

Which players? The vast majority of all players? No, I don't think that's obvious at all.

Sometimes if think the problem Bioware sees with DA2 is that they did not drop enough of DAO to get their holy grail (CoD) which represents the majority of the fans they are aiming at.

But perhaps I'm just to emotional in this, as I expected to much from BioWare.

Modifié par MDT1, 03 juin 2011 - 05:37 .

[Brockololly]

Complistic wrote...
I agree, I think the story potential is there, but like most things in DA2, it wasn't fully realized. I've high hopes for DA3 if they decide to take their time on it. Though not high enough to buy it without reading reviews on it.

In a nutshell, thats the core problem permeating all of DA2: the concepts and ideas like the framed narrative and some of the combat changes sound neat in theory, but for whatever reason, the execution in the final product was severely lacking and more often than not totally missed the mark as what was being touted in pre-release interviews and marketing blurbs and so forth.

Aaleel wrote...

Well they've been on the boards recently,  responded to some of the posts directly, Mike Laidlaw even responded to a couple of mine, so they are listening. They say they'll try to find a  middle ground between Origins and DA2, so I guess they know they went a  little too far with some of the changes.

What "middle ground"  actually turns out to be remains to be seen. There are some things that if they keep them in DA3 are deal breakers and a no buy. But no matter what I have respect for them for even coming onto the forums with the  level of anger here at times.

Sure, the fact that the devs actually respond and interact with people is one of the reasons I still have a sliver of hope for DA despite not really enjoying DA2. I'd like to think that they're not only listening to the feedback but also finding ways to effectively implement that feedback and go above and beyond and exceed people's expectations for the future.

But after much of the talk regarding DA2 prerelease not being fulfilled in the game, I have no clue how they're going to actually implement and execute some of their concepts for the future, or what this mystical "middle ground" between Origins and DA2 is.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 juin 2011 - 05:36 .

[hoorayforicecream]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It's clear there's quite a number of people who feel the same way David. Much like there were quite a few of us who repetely expressed concerns during development that either fell on deaf ears or got lost in the Gaider snark brand™ of replies.

There's a big potential difference between "quite a number of people" and "the vast majority". Hypothetically speaking, ten thousand people is quite a number. However, ten thousand out of two million is nowhere near a vast majority.

Oh for sure, I'd put the number far higher than just a vocal minority like David suggests. It's not hard to go to any gaming website, find a post on DA2 and see the vast amount of negative in regards to the game.

In all the years I've been a Bioware fan, I've never once seen sweeping negative response towards one of their titles until DA2.

Pretending it's not true doesn't make it so. The fact that sales numbers dropped like a brick in compariison to Orgins speaks volumes imo.

But it isn't sweeping negative response. It's a polarized response - some people really really like it, and some people really really dislike it. If you look, professional metacritic still ranks DA2 at 79 for 360 and 82 for PC and PS3. These are by no means as bad ratings as the more vocal opponents would have them believe. You could also argue that the user reviews at metacritic are bad, but there's what, 3,000 of them? That's the mark of a polarizing game, but 3,000 people are hardly a majority.

Further, think about how many people are on BSN. How many users do you think post here regularly? Ten thousand? At most in that order of magnitude, I think. Probably less. How many other large gaming hubs out there? Not more than a dozen. How many do they have? Ten thousand each that post regularly? Even if you count them all up, it's still less than 150,000 people. Compare that to the sell-through numbers that EA gave in their quarterly earnings report (2 million) and you're still looking at around 7.5%. And that's assuming every single one hates the eyebrows off of DA2, which you can obviously see that not all do.

Bioware does what a lot of game companies do - they have surreptitiously added code to their game that clandestinely gathers non-personal game information and sends it to their servers, where it gets tabulated and interpreted. They track statistics like how long the average user spends in Act 2, how much time is spent in the character creator, which class is most popular, what skill trees and skills people tended to use, where people die most often, and things like that. It's important to have that unfiltered information, because actual data can be as valuable as interpreted data. As users, we often give filtered versions of what we actually mean or want, and it behooves the developers to have a way to parse past our interpretation to the actual things we want and dislike.

People like to use numbers as a justification that they are right, but the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

[DragonRageGT]

There is a beautiful post, well written, no hate/bashing but with very positive criticism, describing how the MOOD has drastically changed from Origins to DA2. I do hope that that one really got through to BW.

DA2 is not a bad game. But it has a completely different "signature" than its prequel. Like a great band sometimes with changed formation releases a rushed and not-so-good album which does not prevent them from releasing the next, which may hit #1,  I would expect a DA3 even if the sales for DA2 didn't justify it.

TW2 is much more capable of creating that same mood as Origins did than DA2.

Modifié par RageGT, 03 juin 2011 - 05:54 .

[Stanley Woo]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

This. Very this.

[Aaleel]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Further, think about how many people are on BSN. How many users do you think post here regularly? Ten thousand? At most in that order of magnitude, I think. Probably less. How many other large gaming hubs out there? Not more than a dozen. How many do they have? Ten thousand each that post regularly? Even if you count them all up, it's still less than 150,000 people. Compare that to the sell-through numbers that EA gave in their quarterly earnings report (2 million) and you're still looking at around 7.5%. And that's assuming every single one hates the eyebrows off of DA2, which you can obviously see that not all do.

But that assumes that there are no people with a problem that haven't voice it somewhere.  You can't use numbers for everything, but you can't ignore them either.  Everywhere I go, there are number of people who disliked the game.  Not just forums, if you're on sites that sell the game, the customer reviews of the game have a lot of negative reviews.  Then you have the people who say it was a good game if you don't compare it to the original, or judge it on it's own.  As a developer do you want your products to be better as they go along, or a step back but still good?

I think we're past the point of vocal minority, if that were the case you wouldn't be seeing all these posts from Bioware people lately talking about how they must improve on some things, or there were things that didn't work, or how they need to find a middle ground between the games. 

[Tommy6860]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Complistic wrote...

I don't think it's even possible for you to sit there and say that you honestly think DA2's story was more interesting/involved, it's world more complex/varied, and it's characters more fleshed out than Origins.

It's your opinion and you're free to say so, but I personally thought that the character development in DA2 was far superior to DA:O. The growth in DA:O was minimal for most characters and often more akin to flipping a switch ("hardening" characters) than it was a gradual process with observable growth.

I found myself feeling for the DA2 characters that I liked much more than the DA:O ones, that's for sure. I loved how I could watch them grow differently depending on whether I cultivated a rivalry or a friendship, or even not at all if I ignored them. This might not have been the case for you, and I feel sorry for you if so.

Who am I to dispute what you got out of it, but I have to respond to this bit:

If a "gradual process"  is pertinent to your relationships with your companions by literally skipping, not days, weeks, or months, but years, while then starting again as if nothing changed, not even a progress report, that's fine.

If "observable growth"  or "watch them grow differently " is having totally limited conversations, activated only when scripted,with barely a change in looks and outfits over the course of years, no jealous reactions from your LIs (apparently Issabela is cool that you love her, but take another anyway).That the remainder of the personal interactions is interspersed with gibbing blobs at every corner, then I guess that's meaningful for you. I can say, it wasn't menaingful for me, not when I actually can talk to my LIs or friends at any a time and actually get to know them, literally, during the course of the "whole" time I am with them during gameplay, gibbing and time warps aside.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 03 juin 2011 - 06:06 .