397 réponses à ce sujet

[Tommy6860]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

topster88 wrote...
Is it not obvious that the vast majority of players do not like the casual direction DA2 went?

Which players? The vast majority of all players? No, I don't think that's obvious at all.

Is it not obvious that the sales figures for DA2 were bloated because so many fans were expecting more of DA:O (and even *then* DA2 did not sell that much more than DA:O despite marketing it way more than DA:O was), and that sales for DA3 will suffer becuase of it?

Clearly there are some (or many) people that were disappointed by DA2. The implication that everyone who bought DA2 who'd liked DAO was dissatisfied doesn't really follow, unless you prefer to believe that posts on internet forums constitute the opinions of all players? While that certainly doesn't mean that people who don't post don't feel that way, it no more evidence that they do.

Whether the sales of any potential DA3 will suffer will depend on what kind of game it turns out to be, and the amount of feedback we take into account. As with any game, that feedback will need to be weighed, as there is no single opinon among fans... despite how much some people would like us to think it's so. We'll take criticisms to heart, see what we can change and what we want to change, and go from there.

At that point, I'd suggest that someone who is still leery pay attention to info about the game or try any demo that comes out (if there is one; I've no information on such a thing at this point) and make an informed decision on whether or not to buy the game then. Surely that's not an unreasonable expectation.

Is it not obvious from all the user reviews on metacritic just how many people hate how much you've changed DA?

It's obvious that people who post user reviews on metacritic hate it, certainly. Or at least some of them.

Is it also not obvious that the stark contrast of "critic" reviews only exist because EA paid them for high grades?

I think it's obvious that reviewers have starkly contrasting opinions on what makes a good game, just as fans do. Which is not surprising, as many of them are fans themselves. If only negative reviews or user reviews on metacritic are supposed to be examples of honest journalism, then I really don't know what to say.

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gamepley. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

It's clear you dislike these things. It's also clear there are others who do so, but you're not going to convince us that this is universal. I know the immediate reaction from my saying this is "oh Bioware is just ignoring the criticism and thinks everything's perfect"-- which is typical for the Internet, as only extremes of opinons exist here, but simply not so. Look for Mike's post on things we are looking at currently for improvements. When we have more information to share, we'll do so, but at the end of the day it'll be up to us to decide what we need to change and what we need to keep.

If your opinion is "keep nothing", then I'm afraid that's not going to happen. There are things in DA2 that we're very happy with-- or which are, at least, heading in the direction we like... just as there are things that didn't work like we'd hoped. As for what we work on, that's still to be determined... but the fan feedback we take into account will come from all our fans, and not simply the loudest.

Sorry you didn't like the game. Hopefully what we make next is more to your taste. It might be, and we'll do our best, but from the tone of some posts like this it's truly difficult sometimes to tell if such a thing is even possible-- or desireable.

It's clear there's quite a number of people who feel the same way David. Much like there were quite a few of us who repetely expressed concerns during development that either fell on deaf ears or got lost in the Gaider snark brand™ of replies.

Maybe if you folks didn't have the idea of retconning half the world's lore, reusing the same art assests for many areas, and having a fairly disjointed total story, completely redoing the art style and half of the game's mechanics among other things, then shoving it out the door in 18 months. The reception would have been warmer.

This^ so much!!

[Cutlass Jack]

Stanley Woo wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

This. Very this.

But winning is fun too.

[erynnar]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

This. Very this.

But winning is fun too.

You just like winning using your...rapier whit!

[Zjarcal]

hoorayforicecream wrote an awesome post...

I bow before my lady. 

[Tommy6860]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

This. Very this.

But winning is fun too.

LOL

[erynnar]

Maybe if you folks didn't have the idea of retconning half the world's lore, reusing the same art assests for many areas, and having a fairly disjointed total story, completely redoing the art style and half of the game's mechanics among other things, then shoving it out the door in 18 months. The reception would have been warmer.

Yeah, I do agree with a lot of this.^

[Complistic]

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote an awesome post...

I bow before my lady. 

Can someone please tell me what the hell is with the horses.

[Tommy6860]

Complistic wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote an awesome post...

I bow before my lady. 

Can someone please tell me what the hell is with the horses.

Off topic, and leave her alone, unless you want a hooved forehead

[Zjarcal]

Complistic wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote an awesome post...

I bow before my lady. 

Can someone please tell me what the hell is with the horses.

IT'S PONIES!!!

And they're awesome, that's what's up with them. 

Tommy6860 wrote...
Off topic, and leave her alone, unless you want a hooved forehead [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

He speaks from experience, listen to him! 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 03 juin 2011 - 06:14 .

[Lenimph]

Complistic wrote...


Can someone please tell me what the hell is with the horses.

Can someone please tell me what the hell is up with all the weird looking jarheads in n7 armor 

Modifié par Lenimph, 03 juin 2011 - 06:14 .

[Complistic]

Lenimph wrote...


Can someone please tell me what the hell is up with all the weird looking jarheads in n7 armor 

I don't have origins linked to this account so im sorta boned.

[syllogi]

I think the lesson to be learned here is that ponies in DA3 would make everyone happy.

[Complistic]

TeenZombie wrote...

I think the lesson to be learned here is that ponies in DA3 would make everyone happy.

That is what I'm trying to say, yes.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

People like to use numbers as a justification that they are right, but the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

And that's the problem with perception. People aren't giving criticism to try and "win" an arguement. They're giving criticism in hopes DA3 will be more of an RPG and less a streamlined mess ala DA2.

[Realmzmaster]

Aaleel wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Further, think about how many people are on BSN. How many users do you think post here regularly? Ten thousand? At most in that order of magnitude, I think. Probably less. How many other large gaming hubs out there? Not more than a dozen. How many do they have? Ten thousand each that post regularly? Even if you count them all up, it's still less than 150,000 people. Compare that to the sell-through numbers that EA gave in their quarterly earnings report (2 million) and you're still looking at around 7.5%. And that's assuming every single one hates the eyebrows off of DA2, which you can obviously see that not all do.

But that assumes that there are no people with a problem that haven't voice it somewhere.  You can't use numbers for everything, but you can't ignore them either.  Everywhere I go, there are number of people who disliked the game.  Not just forums, if you're on sites that sell the game, the customer reviews of the game have a lot of negative reviews.  Then you have the people who say it was a good game if you don't compare it to the original, or judge it on it's own.  As a developer do you want your products to be better as they go along, or a step back but still good?

I think we're past the point of vocal minority, if that were the case you wouldn't be seeing all these posts from Bioware people lately talking about how they must improve on some things, or there were things that didn't work, or how they need to find a middle ground between the games. 

Actually developers who are engaged with the community always post that some things could have been handled better, could be improved or might need elimination. Bioware is very good at reading the forums and responding to the community. Bioware has always done it. They read and listen, but that does not mean Bioware has to agree 100% with what is being said. Constructive criticism is something Bioware listens to.

Ranting while therapeutic in nature serves no purpose for the developer. It may make the ranter feel good, but that is about it.

But no developer is going to please everyone. No game is going to please everyone. When DAO came out gamers lamented it was not as good as BG2. DAO was not BG2 spiritual successor. Bioware new IP was a sell out.
DAO was not hardcore enough. Now gamers hold it up like the Holy Grail of CRPGs. DAO is a good game with flaws. DA2 is a good game with flaws. IMHO.
Some of the fan base liked DAO, some did not like DAO same with DA2.

DA2 seems to polarize gamers more not because of the game itself, but because of gamer expectations

You can only hope to please a majority of the gamers. What that majority is I do not know. I cannot speak for the majority and no one on this forum can. Each member can only speak for themselves.
So i take any post that says the vast majority, or the majority of gamers less seriously, because I know they do not speak for me.

Edited for spelling

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 03 juin 2011 - 06:29 .

[Chromie]

Complistic wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote an awesome post...

I bow before my lady. 

Can someone please tell me what the hell is with the horses.

No idea those horses need to die!

[Cutlass Jack]

Complistic wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

I think the lesson to be learned here is that ponies in DA3 would make everyone happy.

That is what I'm trying to say, yes.

If Bioware takes only one bit of feedback from this thread, let it be this.

[Siansonea]

Did somebody say ponehs? *sprinkles magic pony dust onto discussion topic*

[Zjarcal]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Complistic wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

I think the lesson to be learned here is that ponies in DA3 would make everyone happy.

That is what I'm trying to say, yes.

If Bioware takes only one bit of feedback from this thread, let it be this.

YUS! 

[Aaleel]

Realmzmaster wrote...


Actually developers who are engaged with the community always post that some things could have been handled better, could be improved or might need elimination. Bioware is very good at reading the forums and responding to the community. Bioware has always done it. They read and listen, but that does not mean Bioware has to agree 100% with what is being said. Constructive criticism is something Bioware listens to.

Ranting while therapeutic in nature serves no purpose for the developer. It may make the ranter feel goo, but that is about it.

But no developer is going to please everyone. No game is going to please everyone. When DAO came out gamers lamented it was not as good as BG2. DAO was not BG2 spiritual successor. Bioware new IP was a sell out.
DAO was not hardcore enough. Now gamers hold it up like the Holy Grail of CRPGs. DAO is a good game with flaws. DA2 is a good game with flaws. IMHO.
Some of the fan base liked DAO, some did not like DAO same with DA2.

DA2 seems to polarize gamers more not because of the game itself, but because of gamer expectations

You can only hope to please a majority of the gamers. What that majority is I do not know. I cannot speak for the majority and no one on this forum can. Each member can only speak for themselves.
So i take any post that says the vast majority, or the majority of gamers less seriously, because I know they do not speak for me.

That's the point in the beginning all I saw was stuff like vocal minority, 4 chan trolls, confirmation bias, it wasn't released during the holidays like Origins.  Only now after some months when the truth has started sinking in do you start seeing posts about how the game is in need of changes, or they have to find some middle ground.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Aaleel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...


Actually developers who are engaged with the community always post that some things could have been handled better, could be improved or might need elimination. Bioware is very good at reading the forums and responding to the community. Bioware has always done it. They read and listen, but that does not mean Bioware has to agree 100% with what is being said. Constructive criticism is something Bioware listens to.

Ranting while therapeutic in nature serves no purpose for the developer. It may make the ranter feel goo, but that is about it.

But no developer is going to please everyone. No game is going to please everyone. When DAO came out gamers lamented it was not as good as BG2. DAO was not BG2 spiritual successor. Bioware new IP was a sell out.
DAO was not hardcore enough. Now gamers hold it up like the Holy Grail of CRPGs. DAO is a good game with flaws. DA2 is a good game with flaws. IMHO.
Some of the fan base liked DAO, some did not like DAO same with DA2.

DA2 seems to polarize gamers more not because of the game itself, but because of gamer expectations

You can only hope to please a majority of the gamers. What that majority is I do not know. I cannot speak for the majority and no one on this forum can. Each member can only speak for themselves.
So i take any post that says the vast majority, or the majority of gamers less seriously, because I know they do not speak for me.

That's the point in the beginning all I saw was stuff like vocal minority, 4 chan trolls, confirmation bias, it wasn't released during the holidays like Origins.  Only now after some months when the truth has started sinking in do you start seeing posts about how the game is in need of changes, or they have to find some middle ground.

Yes and no, perhaps it was a much smaller minority during crunch time, but I fully recall a huge number of folks here, and on other sites such as Blues News and Evil Avatar that had the same criticisms going into it, that alot more people are coming to now.

Bioware's issue going forward is trying to please too many facets of the fan base and instead out right failing miserably at that. They want that CoD crowd that likes "light RPG" elements because they think they'll somehow sell 10 million+ copies, which let's be honest, RPG's don't sell those kind of units.

While at the same time, I'm sure they'd like to at the very least throw a bone towards folks like myself who perfer more complex customization elements, and more feedback on how the game works under the hood. (combat log, party customization etc.)

Thinking they can please both crowds to me is unrealistic. Could there be a middle ground somewhere in there? Sure, but based on DA2 they'd need to do a lot more moving back towards the RPG end rather than the action game with level ups and dialog feeling that DA2 gave me, in order to even remotely get me thinking about picking up DA3.

[Realmzmaster]

Aaleel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...


Actually developers who are engaged with the community always post that some things could have been handled better, could be improved or might need elimination. Bioware is very good at reading the forums and responding to the community. Bioware has always done it. They read and listen, but that does not mean Bioware has to agree 100% with what is being said. Constructive criticism is something Bioware listens to.

Ranting while therapeutic in nature serves no purpose for the developer. It may make the ranter feel goo, but that is about it.

But no developer is going to please everyone. No game is going to please everyone. When DAO came out gamers lamented it was not as good as BG2. DAO was not BG2 spiritual successor. Bioware new IP was a sell out.
DAO was not hardcore enough. Now gamers hold it up like the Holy Grail of CRPGs. DAO is a good game with flaws. DA2 is a good game with flaws. IMHO.
Some of the fan base liked DAO, some did not like DAO same with DA2.

DA2 seems to polarize gamers more not because of the game itself, but because of gamer expectations

You can only hope to please a majority of the gamers. What that majority is I do not know. I cannot speak for the majority and no one on this forum can. Each member can only speak for themselves.
So i take any post that says the vast majority, or the majority of gamers less seriously, because I know they do not speak for me.

That's the point in the beginning all I saw was stuff like vocal minority, 4 chan trolls, confirmation bias, it wasn't released during the holidays like Origins.  Only now after some months when the truth has started sinking in do you start seeing posts about how the game is in need of changes, or they have to find some middle ground.

A lot of the early posts by the developers were defensive in nature. A lot of it was in response to the sheer amount of non-constructive criticism that was leveled at the game. It made civil discussion rather difficult.

Even now if a gamer post about what he/she liked about the game the haters attack like piranha. If you say you hate the game and list your opinion then the defenders bite like rattlesnakes.

Now we are seeing more civil discourse which is good for all concerned.

[Mr.House]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

People like to use numbers as a justification that they are right, but the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

And that's the problem with perception. People aren't giving criticism to try and "win" an arguement. They're giving criticism in hopes DA3 will be more of an RPG and less a streamlined mess ala DA2.

DA2 is still a RPG, better then that shooter called ME2.

[Mr.House]

erynnar wrote...

Maybe if you folks didn't have the idea of retconning half the world's lore, reusing the same art assests for many areas, and having a fairly disjointed total story, completely redoing the art style and half of the game's mechanics among other things, then shoving it out the door in 18 months. The reception would have been warmer.

Yeah, I do agree with a lot of this.^

Retconnning half the worlds lore? What game did you play?