397 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

People like to use numbers as a justification that they are right, but the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

And that's the problem with perception. People aren't giving criticism to try and "win" an arguement. They're giving criticism in hopes DA3 will be more of an RPG and less a streamlined mess ala DA2.

Unfortunately some of gamers on this forum are trying to give criticism to win an agrument. Some gamers see any positive reviews of DA2 as a threat to not getting the kind of game they want. So they feel they must shout down the supporters and shoot holes in their agruments and reviews so that Bioware does not listen to them It also happens the other way around with the supporters.

Bioware is going to have to find the middle ground between the two camps and aslo take in to consideration their fan base that do not or ocassionally post on the forum, but may make up the majority of gamers who bought the game.

Most of the gamers on the forum are passionate eough to want to post and make their voice heard, but we are at best the vocal minority.

[FiachSidhe]

I wonder if any of what the OP's "people" are saying, run into any of what other people are saying, on its way through, and nothing shows up on the other side.

Modifié par FiachSidhe, 03 juin 2011 - 07:14 .

[GuiltySource]

I would have liked to see something else in place of enemy's jumping out of thin air and in waves. But I like the quicker paced combat better than Origins. Twirling a staff was much better than standing still shooting blobs, and the clunky rogue walk around to back stab was horrible to watch.

The voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel were also much better than Origins, but whoever thought recycled environments was a good idea should be shot. As for the inventory and UI, I had no problem with either of those. The inclusion of a junk tab was pretty damn useful.

I wish Kirkwall had actually felt like 7 years had passed, hearing the same dialogue over and over. (e.g. Hanged Man speed griffins and being licked.) Just felt shallow. Having people react to you being a Blood Mage would have been nice, even your companions neglect to notice.

There were things I like about DA2 and things I didn't. But over all my honest opinion, I liked it and found it entertaining enough to play through twice back to back. And if I had to go back and pre-order again, I'd still be happy to do so.

Modifié par GuiltySource, 03 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[Mr.House]

If they have to do waves, do it like DAO.

[fightright2]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Complistic wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

I think the lesson to be learned here is that ponies in DA3 would make everyone happy.

That is what I'm trying to say, yes.

If Bioware takes only one bit of feedback from this thread, let it be this.

Oh, we're all laughing now... but when we see the first little pony twenty minutes in the game, you'll know who to blame!

[happy_daiz]

If we're talking the "Four Little Ponies of the Apocalypse", that would be awesome. 

[hoorayforicecream]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

People like to use numbers as a justification that they are right, but the goal in this case isn't winning an argument or forcing Bioware to agree that you're right and they're wrong. The goal is to give them the feedback they need in order to glean how to make the next game better.

And that's the problem with perception. People aren't giving criticism to try and "win" an arguement. They're giving criticism in hopes DA3 will be more of an RPG and less a streamlined mess ala DA2.

Mentioning numbers don't make criticism more or less valid. The only reason to bring up numbers is to try to make your opinion seem like it carries more weight than it does on its own merit.

[Cutlass Jack]

fightright2 wrote...

Oh, we're all laughing now... but when we see the first little pony twenty minutes in the game, you'll know who to blame!

C'mon..you know you'll be loving it when waves of 'MyBlighted Ponies' drop from the sky to attack.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 03 juin 2011 - 08:07 .

[Myounage]

Yes. DA:O outsold DA2 by a ton. That sends a message clearer than words to any business.

[David Gaider]

Myounage wrote...
Yes. DA:O outsold DA2 by a ton. That sends a message clearer than words to any business.

To a point, yes. One must also consider, however, that DAO took five times longer to make than DA2. In a development world where time equals money, that means DAO had to sell five times as many copies in order to be profitable. If it makes it easier to understand, take whatever sales numbers you believe DA2 had and multiply that by five-- that's an indication of its profitability relative to DAO.

Does that mean sales are the most important thing? Not really. It's not to us just as it's not to you. I'm not sure a large amount of sales would mean a fan would like a game any more or find it any more worthwhile, so a fan citing a lower amount of sales as being suddenly meaningful strikes me as a bit specious.

The whole "10 million sales figure, CoD audience" thing gets repeated a lot around here, after all, but that's a self-referencing interpretation that has nothing to do with our realistic sales expectations. We're not in the business of making games just to go out of business, yes, but it's also not a good idea to mortgage a franchise for short-term gain. So hopefully there's a middle ground to be found here, and certainly there are a number of things we feel we can and should improve on (as Mike has said)-- as much because it will help sales as because we want to make them better. If we don't talk about what those specifics are, it's because we're not ready to... and because it would be better to eventually show you what we mean rather than simply discuss them.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 juin 2011 - 08:59 .

[Valcutio]

David Gaider wrote...

Myounage wrote...
Yes. DA:O outsold DA2 by a ton. That sends a message clearer than words to any business.

To a point, yes. One must also consider, however, that DAO took five times longer to make than DA2. In a development world where time equals money, that means DAO had to sell five times as many copies in order to be profitable. If it makes it easier to understand, take whatever sales numbers you believe DA2 had and multiply that by five-- that's an indication of its profitability relative to DAO.

Does that mean sales are the most important thing? Not really. It's not to us just as it's not to you. I'm not sure a large amount of sales would mean a fan would like a game any more or find it any more worthwhile, so a fan citing a lower amount of sales as being suddenly meaningful strikes me as a bit specious.

The whole "10 million sales figure, CoD audience" thing gets repeated a lot around here, after all, but that's a self-referencing interpretation that has nothing to do with our realistic sales expectations. We're not in the business of making games just to go out of business, yes, but it's also not a good idea to mortgage a franchise for short-term gain. So hopefully there's a middle ground to be found here, and certainly there are a number of things we feel we can and should improve on (as Mike has said)-- as much because it will help sales as because we want to make them better. If we don't talk about what those specifics are, it's because we're not ready to... and because it would be better to eventually show you what we mean rather than simply discuss them.

Everytime you open your mouth, I lose more and more respect for you.

The only reason DA2 sold even remotely as well as it did is because of the DA:O fans. Do you REALLY think you'll have that advantage when DA3 rolls around?

Make the next game in a month so you can multiply that number by 60. You'll need to in order to hit that sales quota.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

To a point, yes. One must also consider, however, that DAO took five times longer to make than DA2. In a development world where time equals money, that means DAO had to sell five times as many copies in order to be profitable. If it makes it easier to understand, take whatever sales numbers you believe DA2 had and multiply that by five-- that's an indication of its profitability relative to DAO.

But then didn't large part of that time go into producing the engine, which is a long-term investment supposed to provide equally long-term returns by cutting that development time from the future titles? In other words, didn't DAO take five times longer in part so then DA2 and future titles could be pushed out much quicker ... and that cost-saving investment is --in a way-- part of DAO-generated profit, as well? Since as you put it, time equals money so time saved = money saved.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 juin 2011 - 09:04 .

[David Gaider]

Valcutio wrote...
The only reason DA2 sold even remotely as well as it did is because of the DA:O fans. Do you REALLY think you'll have that advantage when DA3 rolls around?

I imagine the people who enjoyed DA2 will be looking forward to DA3, yes, unless your supposition is that everyone who bought DA2 was unhappy? I don't think that's true. Either way, it'll depend on what kind of game DA3 turns out to be, won't it?

Make the next game in a month so you can multiply that number by 60. You'll need to in order to hit that sales quota.

If you want me to care about how much you respect me, you might not want to employ reductio ad absurdum. That's not what I meant, and I think that's clear. Profitibility is not the only factor here.

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...
We'll take criticisms to heart, see what we can change and what we want to change, and go from there.

Are you sure you and Mike aren't the same person? Because you just laid down the law!

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
But then didn't large part of that time go into producing the engine, which is a long-term investment supposed to provide equally long-term returns by cutting that development time from the future titles? In other words, didn't DAO take five times longer in part so then DA2 and future titles could be pushed out much quicker ... and that cost-saving investment is --in a way-- part of DAO-generated profit, as well? Since as you put it, time equals money so time saved = money saved.

To a point, absolutely. It's a simplified comparison, but so is directly comparing DA2's sales to DAO's. If someone intends to interpret what I said is "DA2 was mega-profitable so there's nothing we should change", they should probably read a bit further.

[Cutlass Jack]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Are you sure you and Mike aren't the same person? Because you just laid down the law!

Owww...that pun hurt worse than one of mine. And that's saying something.

[tmp7704]

fightright2 wrote...

Oh, we're all laughing now... but when we see the first little pony twenty minutes in the game, you'll know who to blame!

I believe this deal was already secured for the Elder Scrolls franchise:

alas.

[Valcutio]

David Gaider wrote...

Valcutio wrote...
The only reason DA2 sold even remotely as well as it did is because of the DA:O fans. Do you REALLY think you'll have that advantage when DA3 rolls around?

I imagine the people who enjoyed DA2 will be looking forward to DA3, yes, unless your supposition is that everyone who bought DA2 was unhappy? I don't think that's true. Either way, it'll depend on what kind of game DA3 turns out to be, won't it?

Make the next game in a month so you can multiply that number by 60. You'll need to in order to hit that sales quota.

If you want me to care about how much you respect me, you might not want to employ reductio ad absurdum. That's not what I meant, and I think that's clear. Profitibility is not the only factor here.

It's not the only factor but the DA2 team sure as hell made it the prime one. Atleast that's how it comes off when you cap off a mediocre game like DA2 with a nickle-and-dime item pack dlc.

[John Epler]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
We'll take criticisms to heart, see what we can change and what we want to change, and go from there.

Are you sure you and Mike aren't the same person? Because you just laid down the law!

That caused me physical pain.

[Aaleel]

Valcutio wrote...

Everytime you open your mouth, I lose more and more respect for you.

The only reason DA2 sold even remotely as well as it did is because of the DA:O fans. Do you REALLY think you'll have that advantage when DA3 rolls around?

Make the next game in a month so you can multiply that number by 60. You'll need to in order to hit that sales quota.

Is it really a need to attack the Bioware people when they post.  Last thing I want to see is for them to say these complainers will not be satisfied no matter what we do, so we're just not going to worry about trying to compromise or change anything.

[WhiteKnyght]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Are you sure you and Mike aren't the same person? Because you just laid down the law!

Owww...that pun hurt worse than one of mine. And that's saying something.

Seems pretty clever to me.

JohnEpler wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
We'll take criticisms to heart, see what we can change and what we want to change, and go from there.

Are you sure you and Mike aren't the same person? Because you just laid down the law!

That caused me physical pain.

Too much laughing, Johnny boy?

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 03 juin 2011 - 09:17 .

[John Epler]

Aaleel wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

Everytime you open your mouth, I lose more and more respect for you.

The only reason DA2 sold even remotely as well as it did is because of the DA:O fans. Do you REALLY think you'll have that advantage when DA3 rolls around?

Make the next game in a month so you can multiply that number by 60. You'll need to in order to hit that sales quota.

Is it really a need to attack the Bioware people when they post.  Last thing I want to see is for them to say these complainers will not be satisfied no matter what we do, so we're just not going to worry about trying to compromise or change anything.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. We spend enough time on the forums that we're able to make the distinction with someone who was unhappy with DA2 and simply wish their opinion to be heard and those who are unable to share their criticism in a civil fashion.

The majority of those unhappy with the game fall into the previous category. The vitriol from the latter is not going to make us suddenly disregard anyone's concerns.

[tomas819]

topster88 wrote...

Is it not obvious that ... [snip]?

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gameplay. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

To the OP's first four "Is it not obvious" questions, I would answer "no, it it's not obvious at all."

I thought DA:O was great, and I had a great time playing it.

I also enjoyed DA2 -- although it's a different sort of game, granted. I like DA2's gameplay, its story, its level design, its equipment, its inventory, its "button-mashing" (lol), and its "hack & slash" elements.

So, maybe it's not so "clear" after all, eh? Beware the broad-brush generalizations. I be a consumer, too. 

[Captain_Obvious]

topster88 wrote...

Is it not obvious that the vast majority of players do not like the casual direction DA2 went?

Is it not obvious that the sales figures for DA2 were bloated because so many fans were expecting more of DA:O (and even *then* DA2 did not sell that much more than DA:O despite marketing it way more than DA:O was), and that sales for DA3 will suffer becuase of it?

Is it not obvious from all the user reviews on metacritic just how many people hate how much you've changed DA?

Is it also not obvious that the stark contrast of "critic" reviews only exist because EA paid them for high grades?

BioWare, your consumers do not like the gamepley. They do not like the story. They do not like the level design. They do not like the equipment, inventory, button-mashing, hack & slash elements.

Can this be any more clear? Can it?

No.
No.
What's metacritic, and why should I let them tell me what I like?
Provide evidence of your global conspiracy. 
Bioware, this consumer does like the gameplay and the story.  The level design and the inventory need work.  It's not hack and slash, but auto attack would be nice.