204 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Under no circumstances shoud the rules of the game be hidden from us. The purpose of the UI is to allow us to interact with the game, while at the same time providing necessary feedback.

How the rules are being applied is part of that feedback.

This definitely I agree. 

One thing I'll bring this up from Witcher 2. by going into the journal you can see how the math is done and how your damage is calculated. All you need to do is open the journal. One of my favorite mods for Dragon Age Origins is  a tooltip enhancement mod that shows what stats and how they are calculated for potions, spells and attacks. 

I get that some people don't like it so having options to toggle off parts of the UI should be something for the developers to consider.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ringo12 wrote...

One of my favorite mods for Dragon Age Origins is  a tooltip enhancement mod that shows what stats and how they are calculated for potions, spells and attacks.

Detailed Tooltops.  Great mod.

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

[Chromie]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

One of my favorite mods for Dragon Age Origins is  a tooltip enhancement mod that shows what stats and how they are calculated for potions, spells and attacks.

Detailed Tooltops.  Great mod.

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

Kind of dumb I have to waste a potion to find out how much I am healed by instead of being told it's 50+sp*3. Something as simple as telling me how damage, items and spells are calculated can change how I play. It's definitely much better then having to read about it out of game.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Numbers are not boring.  How else can we convey quantitative data quantitatively?

Numbers in videogames are boring.  Data is for quarterly sales reports.  Data is for analyzing statistics.  I do that at work.  Videogames are for fun.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Have fun!  Explosions, hot chicks, epix stories.  :D:D

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Numbers in videogames are boring.  Data is for quarterly sales reports.  Data is for analyzing statistics.  I do that at work.  Videogames are for fun.

They're not fun if we have to guess at how they work.

And analysing statistics can be fun.  They can even be a fun part of gameplay.  I built a SQL database to calculate what trade routes were most profitable from any location with any hold capacity in EVE Online.  That was awesome.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm after.

I don't want to play a game.  I want to play a character, and to do that I need to understand the world in which he lives.

And regardless of whether you or the designers think those numbers don't matter, the player should still be allowed to know them.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 02 juin 2011 - 11:29 .

[Chromie]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

Wow no single Bioware game is like that! Why are you playing them?

[SuicidalBaby]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

That would be a severly bleek future in the world of gaming if that was the case.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

They're not fun if we have to guess at how they work.

And analysing statistics can be fun.  They can even be a fun part of gameplay.  I built a SQL database to calculate what trade routes were most profitable from any location with any hold capacity in EVE Online.  That was awesome.

I had a spreadsheet for the original Patrician trade game.  I had a hell of a good time with that.  That's not what I'm after from DA3.  I want to see the world unfold, meet companions, and guide my Warden/Hawke through the story of their time.  Numbers just get in the way of that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The numbers are part of the story. Hiding them diminishes the game.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The numbers are part of the story. Hiding them diminishes the game.

We're from different planets.  The bolded reads as gibberish to me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

When you make a decision, you weigh your options based on the likely outcomes, and the probabilities of those outcomes. Regardless of whether you're consciously aware of the actual values of those probabilities, those values are themselves part of the story you're living. They create suspense, in that the outcome is uncertain. How uncertain is determined by the numbers.

[Kilshrek]

In Exile wrote...

To get back on topic, the DA2 UI is functional.

Yes, it is very functional, but where DAO had a balance of form and function (whether or not it was good balance is another issue) DA 2 had only functionality. My earlier posts about the codex in particular were about bringing form back as well, because so much about the DA 2 codex is functional, it's boring as heck to read. Also the font used in  both games...

Of course, different strokes for different folks, but it's like comparing an e-reader to a book. I can't stand those e-readers, I love having a book in my hands and flipping pages and such. Now there's something a toggle might do wonders for? "Ye olde look" tickbox. New fangled awesome look tickbox.

[DragonRageGT]

Ringo12 wrote...

More and more games are moving towards a cinematic experience. Bioware has done doing this well with Mass Effect 1 and 2. Dragon Age Origins and DA2 had some great cinematic quailites. But there is one thing I miss from BG and Neverwinter Nights. Is a UI with a lot of information. I never saw the problem with having a combat log our see the health/mana/energy/etc on faceplates. Infact I find it more annoying to have to mouse over for a few seconds over someone's portrait just to find out how much is left. Though with DA2 and Origins we do have regenerating health. But I want a return to the old UI's with the screen filled with a chatlog of what has been previously said, a combat log so I can see effects or my damage output and I want it all optional, because not everyone would agree with me.

This is fine but just give me a combat/chat log and I would have loved it. I like having all my hotkeys or shortcuts at the top and draggable hotbar.

pics

Call me crazy but I love having all this info in my face. With high resolution monitors it wouldn't look as huge and still give me a lot of screen space, I play games at 1920x1200, for me in a squad based RPG like Dragon Age I don't want emtpy screenspace. Glorious numbers and stat tracking.

more pics

For Dragon Age 3 I would like a UI like DA Origins. With all the info of Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. Just have options to hide the windows and stuff people don't want to keep people like me happy and the peope who want their view not blocked by the numbers. Or make it like Mass Effect out of combat it automatically hides though in DA you can end up fighting anywhere in ME2 you did not. I don't remember a fight in the wards, in the factory and such yes. Suggestions?

As much as I agree (NWN was the best ever, as far as info is concerned, imho. That combat log mixed with Origins would be perfect). But I'm also ok with Gothic or Risen style. I actually hide everything sometimes. It's so immersive for some games! =)

[In Exile]

Kilshrek wrote...

Yes, it is very functional, but where DAO had a balance of form and function (whether or not it was good balance is another issue) DA 2 had only functionality. My earlier posts about the codex in particular were about bringing form back as well, because so much about the DA 2 codex is functional, it's boring as heck to read. Also the font used in  both games...

DA:O didn't have form or function. It was a pain to use in 1920x1280 because it didn't scale up. It was just a bunch of text boxes inside the 'book' UI that we had for our character screen. If we had hand crafted artwork and made it look like hand-written entries in a Journal, that would be one thing . But I found it pretty bland. The DA2 codex was a different and setting breaking sort of bland.

It's not that I think the DA2 codex is great, or even better than the DA:O one. I just think the DA:O one was bad, and if we're talking about how to improve it, DA:O is not the way.

Of course, different strokes for different folks, but it's like comparing an e-reader to a book. I can't stand those e-readers, I love having a book in my hands and flipping pages and such. Now there's something a toggle might do wonders for? "Ye olde look" tickbox. New fangled awesome look tickbox.

I also dislike e-readers. The only think that would improve them is the 'be a book option' and that toogle is a little impossible to do.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

DA:O didn't have form or function. It was a pain to use in 1920x1280 because it didn't scale up.

I don't want the UI to scale with resolution.  I like to be able the adjust the size of the UI by changing the display settings.

Compare KotOR to KotOR2.  KotOR's UI didn't scale, so it got smaller at higher display resolutions.  I liked that.

KotOR2's UI did scale, so it was always huge no matter what you did.

[erynnar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

And there are plenty of games that do that for you. Go play them and let those of us who like the numbers have a gaem we can play and enjoy. And if I get tired of spreadsheets, then I can go play those rock, paper, scissors, or tic tac toe games ( you do realize those are some of the most mindless games with which to make your point, right? *shrugs*) and if you find yourself hankering for an story with a spreadsheet you can come play and RPG. We both win.

[Chromie]

erynnar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

And there are plenty of games that do that for you. Go play them and let those of us who like the numbers have a gaem we can play and enjoy. And if I get tired of spreadsheets, then I can go play those rock, paper, scissors, or tic tac toe games ( you do realize those are some of the most mindless games with which to make your point, right? *shrugs*) and if you find yourself hankering for an story with a spreadsheet you can come play and RPG. We both win.

Those kind of games are Hunted:Demons Forge or Fable III. It looks pretty and thats it. I enjoy a game that makes me think be it an fps like Arma II which is also considered a sim, an RTS like Starcraft 2 or an rpg like Dragon Age Origins. 

But this isn't about what games I enjoy it's about a UI that takes advantage of my monitor and hardware I guess. I didn't know a combat log or chatlog can cause a serious enough performance drop. Neverwinter Nights at it's highest difficulty is harder then DA ever was imo. I like the challenge and a combat log does help me get better.

I can't stand also when games don't take advantage of a PC's control scheme. Mass Effect 2 didn't use mouse scrolling. 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Ringo12 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

And there are plenty of games that do that for you. Go play them and let those of us who like the numbers have a gaem we can play and enjoy. And if I get tired of spreadsheets, then I can go play those rock, paper, scissors, or tic tac toe games ( you do realize those are some of the most mindless games with which to make your point, right? *shrugs*) and if you find yourself hankering for an story with a spreadsheet you can come play and RPG. We both win.

Those kind of games are Hunted:Demons Forge or Fable III. It looks pretty and thats it. I enjoy a game that makes me think be it an fps like Arma II which is also considered a sim, an RTS like Starcraft 2 or an rpg like Dragon Age Origins. 

But this isn't about what games I enjoy it's about a UI that takes advantage of my monitor and hardware I guess. I didn't know a combat log or chatlog can cause a serious enough performance drop. Neverwinter Nights at it's highest difficulty is harder then DA ever was imo. I like the challenge and a combat log does help me get better.

I can't stand also when games don't take advantage of a PC's control scheme. Mass Effect 2 didn't use mouse scrolling. 

You need to understand, Rin is exactly who Bioware was trying to reach with DA2. that portion of the fanbase that wants everything simple, easy, and not at all deep or engaging mechanics wise.

[erynnar]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the player should be allowed to know that Fireball damage equals 60+(spellpower*0.6).

The game should be designed such numbers like that don't matter.  It should be pure rock, paper, scissors designed to add action, suspense, and pacing to a story.  That's what I'm after.

And there are plenty of games that do that for you. Go play them and let those of us who like the numbers have a gaem we can play and enjoy. And if I get tired of spreadsheets, then I can go play those rock, paper, scissors, or tic tac toe games ( you do realize those are some of the most mindless games with which to make your point, right? *shrugs*) and if you find yourself hankering for an story with a spreadsheet you can come play and RPG. We both win.

Those kind of games are Hunted:Demons Forge or Fable III. It looks pretty and thats it. I enjoy a game that makes me think be it an fps like Arma II which is also considered a sim, an RTS like Starcraft 2 or an rpg like Dragon Age Origins. 

But this isn't about what games I enjoy it's about a UI that takes advantage of my monitor and hardware I guess. I didn't know a combat log or chatlog can cause a serious enough performance drop. Neverwinter Nights at it's highest difficulty is harder then DA ever was imo. I like the challenge and a combat log does help me get better.

I can't stand also when games don't take advantage of a PC's control scheme. Mass Effect 2 didn't use mouse scrolling. 

You need to understand, Rin is exactly who Bioware was trying to reach with DA2. that portion of the fanbase that wants everything simple, easy, and not at all deep or engaging mechanics wise.

And don't forget the flash and glam! All bang, boom, and bright lights, and very little substance.

[AngryFrozenWater]

If the game is dumbed down any further by removing its stats than it will be nothing more than an hollow adventure with a good story and flashy combat. If I imagine all the crap that DA2 currently has (or hasn't) then in that case I rather play a real game.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 03 juin 2011 - 03:21 .

[Mr.House]

Just as long as it's not like the ME2 UI I don't care, that UI was as helpful as eating peas with a nail.

[DragonRageGT]

Ringo12 wrote...
I can't stand also when games don't take advantage of a PC's control scheme. Mass Effect 2 didn't use mouse scrolling. 

Argh... don't remind me. Not even double-click works there. And this from a company that made BG, NWN? Where every single option was hotkey'ed since the game main menu ... Is it so time consuming to make, they are just lazy or simply too young and never played those oldies-but-goldies? All they know is gamepad? Do they use keyboard shortcuts and mouse when using software to create games or just a gamepad?

[Mr.House]

RageGT wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...
I can't stand also when games don't take advantage of a PC's control scheme. Mass Effect 2 didn't use mouse scrolling. 

Argh... don't remind me. Not even double-click works there. And this from a company that made BG, NWN? Where every single option was hotkey'ed since the game main menu ... Is it so time consuming to make, they are just lazy or simply too young and never played those oldies-but-goldies? All they know is gamepad? Do they use keyboard shortcuts and mouse when using software to create games or just a gamepad?

It's more jaw droppnig when you compare it to DAO and DA2 that do use hot keys and such and those games are not old at all.