204 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil_Matt]

The UI in future games needs soooo much to at least be scalable and movable, if not fully moddable.  HUD elements stuck to the outside edges of the outer screens really spoilt whatever amount of work went into making sure that DA2 ran in Eyefinity/NV Surround resolutions   Still, ultra-wide resolutions in DA2 work a whole lot better than previous BW "efforts" so we're making some progress at least.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

erynnar wrote...

And there are plenty of games that do that for you. Go play them and let those of us who like the numbers have a gaem we can play and enjoy.

No.

And if I get tired of spreadsheets, then I can go play those rock, paper, scissors, or tic tac toe games ( you do realize those are some of the most mindless games with which to make your point, right? *shrugs*) and if you find yourself hankering for an story with a spreadsheet you can come play and RPG. We both win.

I enjoyed dinosaur games for the story and the epic sweep of the tale.  I miss making an eight character party in the old SSI Gold Box games...  Imaging their lives and the backstory that brought them together to face Takhisis or the Dragonlings or get their Azure Bonds on... but the gearing and the numbers and the endless UI menus rest of it... that was a price I had to pay with my play time to get the story and the exploration.  BioWare (and all RPGs) are moving inexorably toward making me pay less with my play time, and get more from my play time.  :lol:  Winning!

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 03 juin 2011 - 02:26 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You need to understand, Rin is exactly who Bioware was trying to reach with DA2. that portion of the fanbase that wants everything simple, easy, and not at all deep or engaging mechanics wise.

I think BioWare would like to reach both the "story >>> mechanics" people (moi) and the "those are inextricably linked" people.  I think the next version of their formula will appeal to both ends of the spectrum, but time shall tell. 

[Kilshrek]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
 BioWare (and all RPGs) are moving inexorably toward making me pay less with my play time, and get more from my play time.

Really? 'cause I felt the boss battles and many of the fights in Kirkwall were anything but. The new patch seems to be making many of the right noises but I don't know if I can be bothered to fire up the game again, knowing full well that nothing I do changes anything. I got plenty of frustration from the fights, because of waves and other things. I got some frustration from the story, because I couldn't really influence things.

You probably got more from your play time, I didn't. If this were a straight shootout, who is "right"? Am I right because I didn't enjoy DA 2? Or are you right because you enjoyed DA 2?

[Chromie]

Dubya75 wrote...

God help us all if gaming ever returns to being such a tedious affair!
Swing sword frantically, enemy dies. Good enough for me. Why should battle be a science? What the hell does it matter what my average damage per enemy is between 9pm and 11pm on a Sunday? Don't get me wrong, I love RPG elements such as making choices and stuff but setting up flow charts of each weapon's damage relative to the direction the wind blows, to me seems like a load of  hogwash.It is unnecessary clutter.

Have you never played Baldurs Gate 1 ow 2 or Neverwinter Nights? Play Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 or 2, Icewind Dale?

If not I have. A lot of people can agree that knowing your misses and what is resisted or bad rolls can help between dying or not. I'd like to see someone play those games at max difficulty with out even taking the combat log into consideration of their attacks and movement. You'd find yourself reloading pretty often. 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Ringo12 wrote...

Have you never played Baldurs Gate 1 ow 2 or Neverwinter Nights? Play Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 or 2, Icewind Dale?

If not I have. A lot of people can agree that knowing your misses and what is resisted or bad rolls can help between dying or not. I'd like to see someone play those games at max difficulty with out even taking the combat log into consideration of their attacks and movement. You'd find yourself reloading pretty often. 

Reloading pretty often, and being bored even more often.  Unless you're reloading and reloading until you get the roll you want?  If that's how you play, you're basically playing dice and cheating.  That doesn't sound like a fun game at all.

Now, plowing through Nameless's tale, seeing what happens in his life?  That's fun.  Not having him roll three 20s in a row or scrolling through the UI to see his big numbers.

[Sylvius the Mad]

marshalleck wrote...

Bioware hates combat logs and have already said they'll never do them again.

No they haven't.  They said they weren't necessary in DAO (they were wrong), and then they said they weren't putting one in DA2.

I'm going to keeping asking for a combat log.  Just like I'm going to keep asking for a silent PC.  And a grid inventory.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 03 juin 2011 - 05:49 .

[Chromie]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Have you never played Baldurs Gate 1 ow 2 or Neverwinter Nights? Play Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 or 2, Icewind Dale?

If not I have. A lot of people can agree that knowing your misses and what is resisted or bad rolls can help between dying or not. I'd like to see someone play those games at max difficulty with out even taking the combat log into consideration of their attacks and movement. You'd find yourself reloading pretty often. 

Reloading pretty often, and being bored even more often.  Unless you're reloading and reloading until you get the roll you want?  If that's how you play, you're basically playing dice and cheating.  That doesn't sound like a fun game at all.

Now, plowing through Nameless's tale, seeing what happens in his life?  That's fun.  Not having him roll three 20s in a row or scrolling through the UI to see his big numbers.

Do not remember saying that. I have played all those games enough times to remember the story just fine after a decade of playthroughs the gameplay is the only thing that changes. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dubya75 wrote...

(And I really admire your use of big words)

"Intelligent" and "Obfuscatory" are the same length.

Xewaka wrote...

Only if you don't bother to find out wether the "ineffective weapon" is caused due to damage reduction or inmunity to certain types of attack, if you don't want to know if the average damage indicated in your weapon is the actual combat value, of you don't care about how much damage each party member sustains per encounter.
Combat logs are valuable things, that give insights into the working of the game mechanics, and help the player build a better party. And due to the fact that they are a written register, there's no need for them to actually clutter the gameplay field, as they can be visited after the encounter is over to learn from it.

Exactly.  If I throw a fireball into a crowd of enemies, how many of them resisted some of the damage?  How much?  Which ones?  Did they all resist some of the damage, or did I just have a bad roll for damage?

A combat log would tell me.

[TEWR]

If only I knew what everyone was saying with all this techno-jargon

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Ringo12 wrote...

Do not remember saying that. I have played all those games enough times to remember the story just fine after a decade of playthroughs the gameplay is the only thing that changes. 

If you know the story by heart, it seems like you're playing just to min/max and re-roll the dice...  I couldn't stand that.  those are all the things I want less of in a game.

[Chromie]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Do not remember saying that. I have played all those games enough times to remember the story just fine after a decade of playthroughs the gameplay is the only thing that changes. 

If you know the story by heart, it seems like you're playing just to min/max and re-roll the dice...  I couldn't stand that.  those are all the things I want less of in a game.

Or maybe I'm playing games like Fallout 2 which are incredibily more fun, varied and expansive then DA2 is. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

If you know the story by heart, it seems like you're playing just to min/max and re-roll the dice...  I couldn't stand that.  those are all the things I want less of in a game.

Each time I play the game, I get a brand new story, because the story is about my character.  If I use a meaningfully different character, I get a meaningfully different story.

The story the writers put in the game is only tangentially related to my enjoyment.  The only BioWare game where I think the story they wrote actually mattered to my character was KotOR.  But I don't think it mattered the way they thought it would.

[Chromie]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

If you know the story by heart, it seems like you're playing just to min/max and re-roll the dice...  I couldn't stand that.  those are all the things I want less of in a game.

Each time I play the game, I get a brand new story, because the story is about my character.  If I use a meaningfully different character, I get a meaningfully different story.

The story the writers put in the game is only tangentially related to my enjoyment.  The only BioWare game where I think the story they wrote actually mattered to my character was KotOR.  But I don't think it mattered the way they thought it would.

brofist.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The story the writers put in the game is only tangentially related to my enjoyment.

You play to roll dice.  :lol:

[Vaeliorin]

In Exile wrote...

I have to admit, I don't understand how MMOs can handle UI so much better in terms of scaling and moddability than single player games do.  It's not as if the design necessities (in terms of UI) for the two types of games are so completely different.

Aren't MMOs PC only? I only played WoW for a little while (and SW Galaxies for a free trial) so I don't know how they play or handle.

Most of them.  FFXI was on console (I think FFXIV is too, but I don't know for a fact.)  Regardless, they have to do the UI's for the 2 systems separately, and there's no reason they couldn't put in the effort to give the PC version a decent UI. (It's not like there aren't dozens of examples...and it's not like they don't have access to people familiar with moddable UIs given that they've got the Warhammer people.)

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...
OP, honestly, you want a UI with half the screen covered with text and stuff? Thankfully, those days are over.
UI's these days are a lot more.... intelligent.

As an addendum to Sylviu's reply, an intelligent UI
would provide the needed information without covering half the screen.
Reducing screen clutter by giving the player less information is not
intelligent.

I would argue that an intelligent UI would be one that gave you a choice of what information was on the screen and how much screen size it took up.

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The story the writers put in the game is only tangentially related to my enjoyment.

You play to roll dice.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Actually, he plays to roleplay.

And there's nothing wrong with playing to roll dice.  Some of us actually enjoy the game part of role-playing games.  Or are people who enjoy wargaming, strategy games, and other such games just ridiculous people?

Regardless, roll-playing and role-playing are not mutually exclusive.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 03 juin 2011 - 11:38 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

You play to roll dice.  :lol:

I play to make in-character decisions.  Sometimes those decisions result in dice-rolling.  Sometimes those decisions are based on dive-rolling.  And sometimes those decisions have nothing at all to do with dice rolling.

For example, which weapon is my PC using?  DId he choose it because it's effective at doing damage?  Yes, probably.  But that also might not have been the only criterion.  Maybe he won't use edged weapons.  Maybe he'll only use ranged weapons.  And the reasons for those could be anything I can imagine.

If you're choosing weapons purely based on which one is most effective, then it is you who is playing to roll dice.  And if you're choosing weapons based on some other criterion, then you shouldn't have a problem understanding roleplaying.

[MonkeyLungs]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Under no circumstances shoud the rules of the game be hidden from us. The purpose of the UI is to allow us to interact with the game, while at the same time providing necessary feedback.

How the rules are being applied is part of that feedback.

And part of the game and part of the fun I might add. PC UI should be built to the strengths of the platform. The UI should really assist in making the PC eperience a bit different and more PC-like for the players. Consoles should not be holding basck the UI design for PC. I say this as someone who currently only games on the 360. 

[In Exile]

Kilshrek wrote...
Really? 'cause I felt the boss battles and many of the fights in Kirkwall were anything but. The new patch seems to be making many of the right noises but I don't know if I can be bothered to fire up the game again, knowing full well that nothing I do changes anything. I got plenty of frustration from the fights, because of waves and other things. I got some frustration from the story, because I couldn't really influence things.

You probably got more from your play time, I didn't. If this were a straight shootout, who is "right"? Am I right because I didn't enjoy DA 2? Or are you right because you enjoyed DA 2?

The path improves the flow of combat a lot. It changes the dynamic of many builds, but nightmare is no longer a slog. People will say that the patch has many negatives, increasing boss & lieutnant HPs and reducing the CC Stagger combos, but that's missing the point.

What the patch does is change the number of waves (or their intro; can't remember, but it feels less like a slog) and dramatically alters the force mechanic so that on nightmare you no longer get knocked about like a rag doll. That makes combat work much, much better.

The greater HP for special enemies makes encounters a little more centered around managing those enemies vs. the generic weak ones, but it's not a dramatic change in gameplay.

Overall, the patch improves DA2 by a fair bit. But this is speaking only from nightmare Act I data.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If you're choosing weapons purely based on which one is most effective, then it is you who is playing to roll dice.  And if you're choosing weapons based on some other criterion, then you shouldn't have a problem understanding roleplaying.

That is still roleplay. Unless you believe that the PC doesn't have access to the same information the player has. But there's nothing inherently non-RP about optimizing your build or your party.

[Chromie]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If you're choosing weapons purely based on which one is most effective, then it is you who is playing to roll dice.  And if you're choosing weapons based on some other criterion, then you shouldn't have a problem understanding roleplaying.

That is still roleplay. Unless you believe that the PC doesn't have access to the same information the player has. But there's nothing inherently non-RP about optimizing your build or your party.

Ah Fallout 2 I spent a lot of time just making builds around weapons. Shoot them between the eyes!

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

That is still roleplay.

I didn't claim it wasn't  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Zeevico]

Would it have been difficult to swap out the new UI for the old UI in a "PC-exclusive" version of the game?
I know. This is Part 3 Bargaining .
My point is only this:
DAO's PC UI was to my mind cumbersome, especially in the ability selection department. Should've taken a page from the BGII UI, imo, and let people click on a tab to open a wider range of options. But it was pretty. I'd like it if Bioware added an aesthetic element to the UI.

[BrunoB1971]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Due to the cross-platform nature of our games expensive UIs (those that have lots of doodads and whatcha-hoozits) are very taxing on consoles and often limit how much other content we can put in to a scene at any one time without suffering a hefty framerate loss. Now, you could try to suggest that PC games should have a more advanced UI to support their superior (/flex) systems but I'm not sure how much weight that would carry, to be blunt.

so in essence you are telling people that the UI was dumbed down because the game demanded too much out of the consoles...

if i understand this correctly that would be the most lamest thing i have ever heard as an excuse for the game...why should i pay for consoles players and their hardware?

are you telling people that dragon age was designed across the board to be multiplatform all along and that you did not care how it would impact the pc users?

are you telling people that Bioware as to offer an inferrior roduct to pc gamers to accomodate the console people and that the company is too lazy or does not want to use resources to properly design a proper UI for pc players?

if the lead team intentions was to make DA2 more of a console game than a pc game then they should have went exclusive to the consoles!

i respect the console players but by the same token i should receive the service level of my rig...

those who choose to get a console should live with their limitations and i as a pc player who upgrades his machine should not pay for the physical and software barriers that console impose. i chose to invest in a pc to get a better gaming experience but i should not pay for an xbox player machine in terms of quality!!!!!!!!!!

Modifié par BrunoB1971, 04 juin 2011 - 05:54 .

[Chromie]

BrunoB1971 wrote...
so in essence you are telling people that the UI was dumbed down because the game demanded too much out of the consoles...

if i understand this correctly that would be the most lamest thing i have ever heard as an excuse for the game...why should i pay for consoles players and their hardware?

are you telling people that dragon age was designed across the board to be multiplatform all along and that you did not care how it would impact the pc users?

are you telling people that Bioware as to offer an inferrior roduct to pc gamers to accomodate the console people and that the company is too lazy or does not want to use resources to properly design a proper UI for pc players?

if the lead team intentions was to make DA2 more of a console game than a pc game then they should have went exclusive to the consoles!

i respect the console players but by the same token i should receive the service level of my rig...

those who choose to get a console should live with their limitations and i as a pc player who upgrades his machine should not pay for the physical and software barriers that console impose. i chose to invest in a pc to get a better gaming experience but i should not pay for an xbox player machine in terms of quality!!!!!!!!!!

The game was rushed is always the excuse. Bull****. Like saying I didn't have time so i half a**ed the game.