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Champion, Warbringer or Scapegoat?


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#51
KnightofPhoenix

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Plaintiff wrote...
Hawke does "rise to power", that's not a lie. But his power is tied to the city of Kirkwall.


How does he have any power in Kirkwall?

And tell me how was this rise to power and where was the power after the rise.
Please distinguish between power and fame / useless title.

As far as the major choices go, it's important to remember that the series is ongoing and just like with Origins, we won't get a real guage of how much he affected until we see some more story content. We still have no idea how choices like say, sparing the Architect, are going to play out in the long-term.


The game was based on a decade and we see no real or tangible consequences of choices made before as the story progresses. Long term consequences could have been integrated.

As for companions and NPCs. Considering how the story spans 7 years, I'd say Hawke's influence on companions is mostly minimal. Which isn't a problem in and of itself, but it becomes one when it's being used as evidence that Hawke has considerable influence.

But even if Hawke isn't proactive and doesn't do anything significant, I don't see how that's inherently bad.


It wouldn't be inherently bad if the story is written really well. I felt it was not, especially Act 3.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2011 - 06:48 .


#52
TEWR

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All Hawke needed to do was be both proactive and reactive.


Instead, he's just completely reactive.

#53
Plaintiff

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
How does he have any power in Kirkwall?

And tell me how was this rise to power and where was the power after the rise.
Please distinguish between power and fame / useless title.

Oh jesus, you again.

It's pretty damn obvious that being Champion is not the same as being Britney Spears. Hawke has extremely frequent interaction with every important person in the entire goddamn city. Everytime someone of significance in Kirkwall wants something, they go to Hawke. And they don't demand, they ask, politely, because he can (theoretically), turn them down and leave them, and the city to get ****ed up.

This is before he's even the champion. They could go to some other random douche, but they don't. They go to Hawke. He gets instant access to the Viscount when other nobles have to wait (for a long time too, judging by their complaints). Even the Arishok, a completely alien being, respects him, which means Hawke is capable of going to him when other city leaders are not, or would not dare to.

How is that not power? Under what deinition of the term could Hawke be classified as 'useless'?

The game was based on a decade and we see no real or tangible consequences of choices made before as the story progresses. Long term consequences could have been integrated.

As for companions and NPCs. Considering how the story spans 7 years, I'd say Hawke's influence on companions is mostly minimal. Which isn't a problem in and of itself, but it becomes one when it's being used as evidence that Hawke has considerable influence.

Except you do. If you boot Keran from the templars, you get a mission involving a group of moneylenders he's in debt to. If you saved Feynriel, it affects a mission in act 3. If you made him an abomination, you see the results of that. Those are just off the top of my head, I bet there's more, but I probably need to replay.

I would mention the companions, except you wrote them off as "minimal". Personally, I consider the fact that they apparently maintain contact and visit each other regularly for seven years is pretty remarkable in and of itself.

It wouldn't be inherently bad if the story is written really well. I felt it was not, especially Act 3.

Really? I had no idea you disliked the game because up until now I had not read any posts by you. Not a single one.

#54
KnightofPhoenix

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Plaintiff wrote...
Hawke has extremely frequent interaction with every important person in the entire goddamn city. Everytime someone of significance in Kirkwall wants something, they go to Hawke. And they don't demand, they ask, politely, because he can (theoretically), turn them down and leave them, and the city to get ****ed up.


So a glorified errand boy. Why can't he assign tasks to others for a change for his own agenda?
The city gets f**cked up with or without him.

They go to Hawke. He gets instant access to the Viscount when other nobles have to wait (for a long time too, judging by their complaints).


Because Hawke is a neutral party that is not involved in Kirkwall politics and is pretty good at violence.

Even the Arishok, a completely alien being, respects him, which means Hawke is capable of going to him when other city leaders are not, or would not dare to.


Because Hawke is a neutral party not involved in Kirkwall's government.

How is that not power? Under what deinition of the term could Hawke be classified as 'useless'?


Other than the fact that he failed in all of the examples you provide, this is not power. 
This is being (mostly wrongly) considered reliable.

Now I would agree that this could have been an avenue towards a rise to power, as establishing connections is vital. But those connections created in Act 2 are useless, as the Viscount dies and the Arishok either dies or leaves. Now had they added the ability to make connections with some nobles in Act 2, which would have had a bearing in Act 3, that I could consider as a form of accumulating power and tryign to use it. But for 3 years, Hawke apparently did not build any meangful network of alliances and connectons, while he had the ability to and the context was ripe for it. Merely acquaitances.

Power is the ability to shape and influence events, and not do that solely at others' bidding. Hawke does not proactively seek to change Kirkwall, and when he tries to do it for someone else, he usually fails.

Except you do. If you boot Keran from the templars, you get a mission involving a group of moneylenders he's in debt to. If you saved Feynriel, it affects a mission in act 3. If you made him an abomination, you see the results of that. Those are just off the top of my head, I bet there's more, but I probably need to replay.


These are very minor and not really tied to the city in a large sense. It's tied to specific individuals, who they themselves are not that relevent for the city of Kirkwall. You claimed that Hawke influences Kirkwall with his supposed power and if those are examples, then it's pretty meager. 

Not saying that those differences aren't welcome. But they are not enough for me to seriously consider Hawke has have any real power in Kirkwall.

I would mention the companions, except you wrote them off as "minimal". Personally, I consider the fact that they apparently maintain contact and visit each other regularly for seven years is pretty remarkable in and of itself.


Which is not influencing them in any meaningful term. Which I don't find necessarily a flaw, except when it comes to Hawke's inability to deal with Anders, and who has to constantly tolerate him barging in his property without any permission and shoving his manifesto everywhere. If Hawke had the ability to report Anders and we see him escape, that would have alleviated what I see as a glaring flaw.

#55
TEWR

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He definitely had people who could've helped him set up connections.


Varric could've helped with the Merchant's Guild

Aveline with the Guard

The Alienage elves could've been helpful

Darktown Fereldan refugees could've been helpful to, especially if he got them to rally together to fight the Qunari and they raided an armory or something

As a noble, one would think he sees other Kirkwall elite. A few of them could've been established as a solid ally, like the one quest giver if you're pro-mage in Act 3's opening. I think her name was Ser Marlein or something.

There were opportunities to have connections.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 juin 2011 - 07:42 .


#56
Ryzaki

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He definitely had people who could've helped him set up connections.


Varric could've helped with the Merchant's Guild

Aveline with the Guard

The Alienage elves could've been helpful

Darktown Fereldan refugees could've been helpful to, especially if he got them to rally together to fight the Qunari and they raided an armory or something

As a noble, one would think he sees other Kirkwall elite. A few of them could've been established as a solid ally, like the one quest giver if you're pro-mage in Act 3's opening. I think her name was Ser Marlein or something.

There were opportunities to have connections.

 

As well as Anders with the mage underground (maybe then Thrask's death could've been avoided. :pinched:) as well. (probably could've helped with the darktown fereldan refugees). 

Cullen with the templars. 

The smugglers/mercaneries from act 1. (Hawke was highly valued by their leaders) 

#57
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...
The smugglers/mercaneries from act 1. (Hawke was highly valued by their leaders) 


I actually thought this was going to be a major choice with long term consequences.

There is also the magister.

There were a lot of opportunities, but none of them was exploited.

#58
TEWR

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It would've been nice to have Athenril as a connection.



Meeran's mercenary company could've been Hawke's own personal contingent.

#59
KnightofPhoenix

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It would've been nice to have Athenril as a connection.



Meeran's mercenary company could've been Hawke's own personal contingent.


They could have been allies in Act 2.

The mercs would help Hawke with muscle. The smuglers on the otherhand can inflitrate the Qunari compound or an armory to provide weapons to Hawke's militia, improving their strength.

#60
TEWR

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That would've been awesome. Have Athenril's guild play Saboteur or helping you arm your militia.


God.... the game had so much potential to be amazing..... and even if it was modded to be amazing it wouldn't mean anything in regards to DA3 if you imported it over. That's the saddest part of it all.

#61
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The smugglers/mercaneries from act 1. (Hawke was highly valued by their leaders) 


I actually thought this was going to be a major choice with long term consequences.

There is also the magister.

There were a lot of opportunities, but none of them was exploited.

 

Really. 

Ignoring the magister's orders should've came back to bite my Hawke in the ass. Alas.

And that idea with the smugglers/mercenaries sounds awesome KoP. (something else that should've bit Hawke in the bum other than a easy fight).  

#62
TEWR

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The Magister or the Magistrate? Two completely different people


Magister Danarius - A Tevinter mageocrat


Magistrate Vanard - Kelder's father.

#63
KnightofPhoenix

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
God.... the game had so much potential to be amazing......


Indeed and I was excited at first.
The ideas and concepts behind the game were great, and could have poitentially made it my favorite RPG. The execution alas.

And yea, I meant magistrate.

#64
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The smugglers/mercaneries from act 1. (Hawke was highly valued by their leaders) 


I actually thought this was going to be a major choice with long term consequences.

There is also the magister.

There were a lot of opportunities, but none of them was exploited.


I actually thought there was going to be something more to that as well. Besides a quest with the thief guild and/or an incident with the mercenaries, that was it.

#65
Lenimph

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What I learned from this thread: 

Apparently everything someone does in their life is a choice and this should have been reflected in DA2. <_<
Apparently a politcal title actually grants someone power. :o
DA2 Marketing lied to me! :crying:

#66
Ryzaki

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Magister or the Magistrate? Two completely different people


Magister Danarius - A Tevinter mageocrat


Magistrate Vanard - Kelder's father.

 

I meant magistrate. Me and my scrambling brain. 

#67
TEWR

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The title of Champion isn't a figurehead role Lenimph. It's a role given to people who hold considerable power and influence. They change lives with their title.


But champion is not an appointment that can be sought. It cannot be owned or willed, and the process by which it is bestowed is not argued through policy or guile. It is earned with blood and sweat and leadership in times of great turmoil. Always worthy, as their deeds are of true importance, a champion is greeted not by debate, but by nods of reverence.

There is the contradiction of the honor. Champion is not itself a sign of approval. He or she can be respected or feared, their coming dreaded as much as desired. All that is common is that they have an effect and lives are changed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 juin 2011 - 08:27 .


#68
KnightofPhoenix

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The title of Champion isn't a figurehead role. It's a role given to people who hold considerable power and influence. They change lives with their title.


But champion is not an appointment that can be sought. It cannot be owned or willed, and the process by which it is bestowed is not argued through policy or guile. It is earned with blood and sweat and leadership in times of great turmoil. Always worthy, as their deeds are of true importance, a champion is greeted not by debate, but by nods of reverence.

There is the contradiction of the honor. Champion is not itself a sign of approval. He or she can be respected or feared, their coming dreaded as much as desired. All that is common is that they have an effect and lives are changed.


Yea that's the theory. In practise and in the game, none of that happened.

I am afraid I'll need more than a codex entry for me to think that Hawke held actual real power and had any extensive influence in Kirkwall.

#69
TEWR

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Sadly that's the truth of it. I don't mind things growing beyond Hawke's reach and him having no control over the situation. It would've reached that point eventually if Anders' bomb didn't go off.

But he held no power and had no connections that he could've used. If he had them, they weren't shown in game.

The only connection I can think of that he actually acquired is Ser Marlein where she vows to help Hawke at the end of her quest....

but she doesn't. That's the last we see of her.


Varric needed to give some details on what Hawke did in those gaps of time. 3 years between each act is a long time and a lot could've been done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 juin 2011 - 08:33 .


#70
Ryzaki

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Not to mention any power Hawke may had is mocked by Meredith. If Hawke actually had any power he/she should've been able to slap Meredith down (not completely but enough to get her off their case).

#71
KnightofPhoenix

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Varric needed to give some details on what Hawke did in those gaps of time. 3 years between each act is a long time and a lot could've been done.


Apparently what could have been done was completely inconsequential as we see nothing in Act 3 that points to anything being done.

#72
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Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention any power Hawke may had is mocked by Meredith. If Hawke actually had any power he/she should've been able to slap Meredith down (not completely but enough to get her off their case).


And then she skewers Hawke with the Soul Edge.

#73
Ryzaki

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Alistairlover94 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention any power Hawke may had is mocked by Meredith. If Hawke actually had any power he/she should've been able to slap Meredith down (not completely but enough to get her off their case).


And then she skewers Hawke with the Soul Edge.

 

I'm still bummed I can't steal that sword for myself. That sword was awesome. It was a LIGHTSABER for crying out loud! 

#74
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Ryzaki wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention any power Hawke may had is mocked by Meredith. If Hawke actually had any power he/she should've been able to slap Meredith down (not completely but enough to get her off their case).


And then she skewers Hawke with the Soul Edge.

 

I'm still bummed I can't steal that sword for myself. That sword was awesome. It was the Soul Edge for crying out loud! 


Fix'd. It just sounded like a lightsaber.

#75
KnightofPhoenix

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The sword looks ugly.