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[Golden Owl]

I came onto this Forum disliking Ash, Jacob, Jack, Miranda, Krogans and Salarians.....But watching debates, speaking with people here, thinking about things said...a few of my perceptions have changed....it seems you can sometimes lead a horse to water AND make it think.

Ash.... I saw as a xenophobe and just so negative all the time...some very good debates have had me re-think Ash...She is petty and jealous in regards to Liara, but a xenophobe? Cautious and cynical, yes...Xenophobe, no....(and I have debated so hard for yes on this before)..... I don't like her dog comment or her constant cynical comments...I personally do like her poetry....I am warming up to her, my current ME1 Shep is romancing her, I'm quite liking her attitude in the romance dialogs, she had him at 'Wild Cat'...:-)....Mind changed on Ash, she's alright...:-)

Jacob....He has been accused of a few things, most commonly blandness, which I also felt at first....But listening to all the talk on the Forum, I started really listening to what he says....to be completely honest, I think what it's really coming down to is, he like Ash, is also a cynic, but he is one of the few squaddies with an extended dialog and now as I am finding the right dialog options with him...been experimenting...he is becoming more interesting to speak with....he isn't so bland after all, he's alright.

Jack....My aversion to Jack is easily narrowed down to her potty mouth, tatts and shaved head, easy to dislike from the get go...but started listening to her and though I still desperately want to wash her mouth out with soap, I understand her and understand why she is who she is...Cerberus has a lot to answer for...she gets a free pass in my books.

As for Mianda, Krogans and Salarians, I am still looking for another perspective.

Has anyone else found their perspectives changing on any NPC's through Forum discussion?

[Clonedzero]

i hated Jack initially then i came to the forums and heard that her paragon romance was really well done so i gave that a chance and now i really like jack as a character.

on the flip side, i thought Tali was an alright character but after coming to the forums, seeing the tali fans, trying to discuss things with about her character it actually made me resent and hate her as a character. which even i admit is odd lol.

i remember posting about how it hought it was interesting that Tali was forced into leadership roles that she obviously couldnt handle and it always turned out badly, and how that was interesting for her character. then about a thousand talimancers jumped down and screamed at me saying "she's not a bad leader! she has no flaws!!! rawr!" completely turned me off her as a character.

[Golden Owl]

Clonedzero wrote...

i hated Jack initially then i came to the forums and heard that her paragon romance was really well done so i gave that a chance and now i really like jack as a character.

on the flip side, i thought Tali was an alright character but after coming to the forums, seeing the tali fans, trying to discuss things with about her character it actually made me resent and hate her as a character. which even i admit is odd lol.

i remember posting about how it hought it was interesting that Tali was forced into leadership roles that she obviously couldnt handle and it always turned out badly, and how that was interesting for her character. then about a thousand talimancers jumped down and screamed at me saying "she's not a bad leader! she has no flaws!!! rawr!" completely turned me off her as a character.

Yep, I like you, did something of a backwards slide with Tali...I was very fond of her, but for me, I started to question her...though more so the Quarians as a whole....in regards to the Geth issue.

[jacobOriley]

I came to the forums after many play thru's and exploring all the conversation/combat/LI combinations I could. I had my favorites and still do, but don't hate any of them. Still not big on Liara, but that's just me. She's still a great character.

More importantly though, I learned to ignore/laugh at the "rabid" fans and the "rabid" hater's. Silly fans have their rants, but they don't change my mind. I really think bioware scored with the NPC's to generate such passion one way or the other.

[ADLegend21]

My opinions of characters changed when I did completion runs on both games. I noticed more about characters that shifted my rank of favorites a bit.

[Siansonea]

I also originally didn't care for Ashley, and it's only after some time that I've come to appreciate her. My big turnoff with Ash is her religion, since religion is a big turnoff for me in general. I thought her attitude toward aliens is perfectly understandable given her limited experience with them, and all too likely to be on-target. The poetry didn't grab me at first, but I always loved her devotion to her sisters. I always felt sad for Abby, Lynn and Sarah Williams on my playthroughs where Ash dies on Virmire. Ash is a strong woman, and I respect that, though I'd still say that I prefer Liara and Kaidan as LIs in ME1, mainly because I am naturally drawn to very Paragon characters like them.

Jacob always looked cross-eyed to me, and his mouth looked "alligatory" to me in my early playthroughs, but he looks good when he's not talking. And his abruptness was kind of a turnoff (did NOT like the "Already? I'm not big on forcing these talks, let's do this later" line) I did not like his attitude toward Thane, his bad tactical advice during the Suicide Mission, and his rather underwhelming response to his loyalty mission (it doesn't help that I really don't like his loyalty mission itself either, it's just gross with the exploitation of the Gernsback crew by Ronald Taylor). But over time I've come to appreciate Jacob's solid character. Unfortunately, Jacob's best lines are buried in the otherwise awful FemShep/Jacob romance dialogue. I'm hoping Jacob gets some redemption in ME3, because he's an unjustly maligned character in a lot of ways.

Tali—ugh, Tali. I was pretty indifferent toward her in ME1, though I tended to not talk to her after my first few playthroughs. It seemed like all she had to talk about was quarian and geth culture, very little about her personally, it all felt very impersonal. She was out of sight, out of mind for me—until I came to the ME1 boards and discovered the Talimancer Phenomenon. My first thought was "really?" I couldn't see why anyone would be attracted to Tali, then I did the math. I looked at her cleverly obscured face (intrigue!), that amazing waist-hips ratio, and that submissive personality with a veneer of spunkiness, and I realized what catnip that would be to young males. And sure enough, the Talimancer brigade seemed to really trend young. It seemed with the second Mass Effect novel that the Tali phenomenon had taken root, due to that novel's focus on the Migrant Fleet. Then in ME2, the full force of the Talimancer movement was underscored by Tali's front-and-center appearance in the prologue, as if BioWare was concerned that if they didn't show Tali pretty early in the game, the vocal Talimancer fans would rise up and revolt. There were any number of ways Freedom's Progress could have played out without quarians in general and Tali in particular. Heck, a human survivor locked in that building would have made just as much sense. But not only were the quarians present, but Tali just happened to be "leading" them (though Prazza didn't seem to get that memo, so much for Tali's effectiveness as a leader). But Big Strong Shepard gets to ride in and help out Tali, who submissively agrees to whatever Shepard does, she doesn't actually try to stop him from taking Veetor if that's what Shepard decides. And then Haestrom, rescued again. And then Tali's trial, where you have to cover up Rael'Zorah's war crimes to make Tali happy. Never mind all the quarians who died on the Alarei, whose souls cry out for justice ("Jona, be strong for Daddy, Mommy loves you very much!"). Nope, all Tali cares about is that her father's name not be stricken from the manifests of the ships he's served on, and that his name doesn't become an example of one of the worst war criminals in her people's history. The take away from that is, of course, that Rael'Zorah actually IS one of the worst war criminals in her people's history—and that's perfectly okay with Tali. She'd rather perpetuate a lie than tell the hard truth about her father, and I think that's a pretty crappy personality trait. So even though the fan community started my active dislike of the Tali character, it was Tali herself who cemented it with her unethical and immoral attitude.

Garrus has an awesome voice acting performance, but other than that, he never really registered with me in ME1. Then in ME2 his "fan favorite" status became clear, but unlike Tali it seemed to be a pretty natural progression from his chafing cop persona in the first game. It made sense that he'd flip off C-Sec and set up shop on Omega, even if he told Shepard that he was going back to C-Sec in ME1. The thing is that Garrus' famous calibrations stonewalling made me much less drawn to the character. He just doesn't seem to have much to say.

My favorite characters, of course are Mordin and Samara, who don't get a lot of play in the fan community the way Tali, Garrus, Legion, etc, do. It may well be that the relative lack of rabid fan devotion for those characters (in my awareness, at least) enhances my appreciation for those characters. They have depth, and they have some of the most interesting conversations on the Normandy. They also wrestle with the biggest moral dilemmas in the game.

Jack was one that took me a while to appreciate. I was put off by her exterior, but given her backstory, her character makes perfect sense. I don't buy her romance storyline, though what's there is pretty well done. It just goes from brittle to vulnerable too quickly, without any real catalyst for the catharsis. It just seemed like they skipped a step somewhere.

Thane, Zaeed, and Grunt just never grabbed me. Same goes for Wrex. Other fans' opinions didn't seem to change my attitude toward them much.

[Seboist]

Hmm, the only perception I can say that was changed from these boards is my being more accepting of the decision to kill off Shiala.

[ShadowLordXXX]

Siansonea II wrote...
Tali—And then Tali's trial, where you have to cover up Rael'Zorah's war crimes to make Tali happy. Never mind all the quarians who died on the Alarei, whose souls cry out for justice ("Jona, be strong for Daddy, Mommy loves you very much!"). Nope, all Tali cares about is that her father's name not be stricken from the manifests of the ships he's served on, and that his name doesn't become an example of one of the worst war criminals in her people's history. The take away from that is, of course, that Rael'Zorah actually IS one of the worst war criminals in her people's history—and that's perfectly okay with Tali. She'd rather perpetuate a lie than tell the hard truth about her father, and I think that's a pretty crappy personality trait. So even though the fan community started my active dislike of the Tali character, it was Tali herself who cemented it with her unethical and immoral attitude.

Not going to go in on the other parts but this one is pretty innaccurate. First and foremost Id like to ask what justice? You do realize that everyone who died aboard the Alarei(excepting the marines who died boarding it) would also be considered war criminals, and in all likelyhood would recieve similar treatment as Rael, Rael would merely be held up as the mastermind behind it all. Furthermore Rael is DEAD. Seeing as he is dead what exact kind of justice do you plan on bringing to him? Making him more dead? 

Oh and lets not even mention that Rael asks that you give the data. Why? because he believes that the data can be used to control the Geth,m and he knows that Xen and han gerrel WILL use it. So if you give them the data what you are actually doing is NOT getting the dead justice but rather tacitly condoning what he did by giving the data to(at least) the one person(Admiral Xen) who would use it to commit a far worse crime than Rael commited, the subjugation of an entire race.

Of course this assumes that the crime was Rael experimenting on active Geth. One could argue that the only thing he did wrong was to not take enough precautions. The whole "the ends justifies the means" mentality. It is apparent that Rael's ends were good(regain Quarian homeworld) and from the perspective that the ends justifies the means he was justified in his actions While I don't believe that, I know a large number of people have justified Cerberus actions on a similar concept. In fact if anything you can draw plenty of paralels between a number of things Cerberus has done and Rael's actions(In fact it's so remarkably similar one wonders if Rael didnt draw it out of Cerberus' own playbook)

Now if you want to say Tali is selfish because the reason she asks you not to reveal the evidence is that it will tarnish her father's name, perhaps it was to some degree however I hardly see a compelling reason as to giving the data being selfless. Realistically looking at what might occur from giving the data what will happen? Nothing good. In fact I would be inclined to say that Tali not wanting to give the data had nothing to do with being selfish, and everything to do with being selfless and loyal to her father. In all likelyhood she assumed she was going to be exiled for not giving the evidence(she makes it pretty clear she believes the admiralty board has already decided her guilt) so if she doesn't give the evidence what happens to her? She's exiled, the worst punishment possible among the quarians. She would be considered guilty of treason.  She was willing to accept all of this, all to protect her father(Im obviously speaking at this from the perspective that Tali wouldn't know that Shepard can convince anyone that up is down, left is right and that Shepard is actually God all with one touch of a red or blue set of words )

Modifié par ShadowLordXXX, 03 juin 2011 - 04:57 .

[mineralica]

My thoughts about character tend to dramatically change during game (my first thoughts about three fav characters were: "lol guy what's happened with your hair lol", "arrogant ****** and ass" and "yes, big badass alien with ****s bigger than Shepard. Hate this type"). Strange and confusing thing, to understand character better you often had to romance him/her. But it isn't happen yet that another person's opinion on character changed my own thoughts.
However, after the 100500th discussion "keep/destroy Collectors' base", "multiplayer in ME3", "is Ashley a racist" and "love/hate Tali" I've changed my thoughts on people, but this is another story

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

When I first came to the forums I was not a supporter of killing the rachni queen. I felt that humanity adding its name to the short list of species responsible for genocide was just a bad idea. I only changed my mind after another poster rather simply explained that killing the queen was just Shepard doing his/her job. That made it much easier to rationalize and I've never looked back since.

Otherwise I don't really think the forums have changed my perceptions that much. Private conversations with a few posters have caused me switch sides on a couple of things, but not a whole lot.

When it comes to characters I form my own opinions about them by playing the game repeatedly and trying the new characters out. I used to dislike Thane a lot, but he's grown on me. I don't find him terribly interesting outside of his loyalty mission, but I like that if Shepard is a dick to him that he'll politely tell Shepard to F off and threaten to leave. He's a got a spine.

I also never would have come to appreciate Urdnot Wreav if it hadn't been for posters helping convince me to go back and kill off Wrex.

What got you to appreciate Wreav? He's pretty underused like Morinth and like her exists in the shadow of another character.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

What got you to appreciate Wreav? He's pretty underused like Morinth and like her exists in the shadow of another character.

What I like about Wreav is that I can't be certain if he's a friend or not. When you first meet him he welcomes you as a respected enemy, but he also thanks you for inadvertently allowing him to wrest control of his clan from "radical reformists". He warns you to watch your back.

However in the course of your activites on Tuchanka you wind up helping him quite a bit and he welcomes a member of your squad into his clan.

So by the end is he a friend or an enemy?

He is a more complex character than Wrex in my opinion. Wrex is very blunt (but... clever) in his motives and beliefs. Wreav is apparently not a fan of Wrex's reforms, but, he is still willing to try out Wrex's ideas if he thinks they'll work. Unlike Wrex, Wreav is not a diehard. The proof of this is when he offers Grunt the chance to join his clan. The reasons are slightly different, but he still utlimately decides "tradition be damned if it means a stronger clan", pissing off Uvenk.

In ME3, I know Wrex will be my ally. With Wreav I am uncertain. I like uncertainty, it adds drama and tension.

It's like that with Morinth, too. She's another character I've enjoyed for a long time that most people hate. I think she is extremely entertaining and truth be told I don't think she's much worse than her mother. Try getting some of her unique dialogue on Tuchanka sometime. Morinth left quite a mark on me despite her relatively brief interactions with Shepard in the game.

I'm not even fully convinced that she intended to kill Shepard if s/he melds with her. I think she probably thought death was possible and wouldn't mind much if Shepard did die, but I think she makes a legitimate case for Shepard being able to survive. It's a shame Shepard doesn't because I'd love to see her reaction to a lover who can survive being with her.

Good points, I killed off Wrex in my pseudo-canon playthrough just to see how things would be like(I also killed Samara for Morinth) with him and the "friend or foe?" dynamic is pretty interesting. I'm hoping they do more with his character in ME3 and make him seem less like a Wrex replacement.

What's weird though, is that he practically doesn't exist if Wrex is still alive. He should have appeared in some capacity or at least have been mentioned.

[TomY90]

Ill give you a miranda perspective for you

With miranda she is always been said to be a cold, calculating person who feels she is above everyone else (due to her talking about her biotics and gifts often)

which that is because of her childhood and her life afterwards which she was instantly expected to extremely high standards from her whether its her biotics or her looks she was expected by her father to be perfect in every single way eventhough she is still human making her still possible to make human error

She grew up with no childhood at all with no friends apart from Niket making her very cold person considering from a very young age she likely never had much contact with many people at all. (likely to have caused her not have much of a sense of humour as well)

her childhood got more unusual when her younger twin was born and she ran away with her baby sister and got help from cerberus which pretty much saw her as a resource and used her as much as possible to progress cerberus's goals which further makes her more cold and shows she is willing to sacrifice her own well being to help those she loves.

She does have the most in common with shepherd out of all the mass effect characters because as miranda said 'us both were engineered for greatness, the only difference is that you were already great before we rebuilt you' and they have the same levels of responsibility and expectations thrusted upon them both and usually they also have the same unusual upbringing (in my case my parents got killed in a raider attack)

she is jealous in a way of shepherd because of him/her achieving everything 'due to your skill' which she does say 'the only things I can take credit for is my mistakes' that does show as well she has major issues with her history involving how she was born and brought up because she feels everything she achieved was because of the gifts she were given by her father.

I think she does become less of an 'ice queen' during ME because she has never been treated for anything else than a resource to be used by other people to achieve their own personal goals which does create the cold exterior which you clearly see from the start which in ME2 (paragon) you do treat her like a human being not a tool to be used like cerberus and her father.

When she gets closer to shepherd you do see that the actual miranda starts to come out to such an extent she does cry whether involving oriana (her younger twin sister), Jacob (ex lover) or shepherd (male romance), sometimes she even laughs at what shepherd says to her and she does show more of her emotions throughout the game to such an extent its impossible to call her an ice queen.

Liara does some up quite well how much Miranda changes.

Liara 'She was so cold when I 1st met her, completely focused on her duty'

Shepherd 'I don't know if she has lightened up much'

Liara 'she has, believe me you have no idea how much you have changed her'

and for those who call her a cerberus b***h she does quit during the suicide mission because of the illusive man wanting her to stop shepherd blowing up the collector base and she acknowledges that they consider her as a resource by saying 'or what, your going to replace me next'

so in ME3 pretty much guaranteed she will be not with cerberus regardless of if you saved the base or not.

In summary I will say the following

she is a character you naturally dislike at 1st (i believe they did that on purpose) and overtime she lightens up and opens up you more like a flower and you then truly see the real miranda behind that cold business like exterior which you find on the outside a cold, calculating, confident women but in the inside you find a emotional scarred, loving women who takes her sisters life more important than her own and is the character you find to have most in common with due to your skills and what you two are expected to achieve.

P.S. sorry for long message I am never any good at trying to summarise my opinions.

if you still unsure about miranda just do a paragon romance with her you will see the real miranda not the cold one you see at the start

Modifié par TomY90, 05 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[Siansonea]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Tali—And then Tali's trial, where you have to cover up Rael'Zorah's war crimes to make Tali happy. Never mind all the quarians who died on the Alarei, whose souls cry out for justice ("Jona, be strong for Daddy, Mommy loves you very much!"). Nope, all Tali cares about is that her father's name not be stricken from the manifests of the ships he's served on, and that his name doesn't become an example of one of the worst war criminals in her people's history. The take away from that is, of course, that Rael'Zorah actually IS one of the worst war criminals in her people's history—and that's perfectly okay with Tali. She'd rather perpetuate a lie than tell the hard truth about her father, and I think that's a pretty crappy personality trait. So even though the fan community started my active dislike of the Tali character, it was Tali herself who cemented it with her unethical and immoral attitude.

Not going to go in on the other parts but this one is pretty innaccurate. First and foremost Id like to ask what justice? You do realize that everyone who died aboard the Alarei(excepting the marines who died boarding it) would also be considered war criminals, and in all likelyhood would recieve similar treatment as Rael, Rael would merely be held up as the mastermind behind it all. Furthermore Rael is DEAD. Seeing as he is dead what exact kind of justice do you plan on bringing to him? Making him more dead? 

The quarian government believe that the appropriate response is to strike his name from the records of the ships he has served on, and hold his name up as an example of one of the worst war criminals in quarian history, according to Tali. It’s their society, they should choose the appropriate response.

Oh and lets not even mention that Rael asks that you give the data. Why? because he believes that the data can be used to control the Geth,m and he knows that Xen and han gerrel WILL use it. So if you give them the data what you are actually doing is NOT getting the dead justice but rather tacitly condoning what he did by giving the data to(at least) the one person(Admiral Xen) who would use it to commit a far worse crime than Rael commited, the subjugation of an entire race.

What Rael’Zorah does or does not ask is immaterial. Shepard is acting as an officer of an Admiralty court, specifically as Tali’s advocate. Shepard agreed to look for evidence to exonerate Tali. He FINDS IT. But Tali pleads with him not to use it because of her emotional attachment to her father. Okay, I can understand her emotional state, but Shepard’s duty at this point is to the court and to Tali as a client on trial for treason. He found evidence to exonerate her. If he doesn’t present the evidence, and allows her to be exiled, he has failed in his duty to the Admiralty court and to Tali, even if she’s “happier” with the result. The Admiralty didn’t ask Shepard to go find some way to make Tali happy, they asked him to participate in a trial in an official capacity. That’s not something you just turn your back on because your friend looks at you with puppy-dog eyes.

Of course this assumes that the crime was Rael experimenting on active Geth. One could argue that the only thing he did wrong was to not take enough precautions. The whole "the ends justifies the means" mentality. It is apparent that Rael's ends were good(regain Quarian homeworld) and from the perspective that the ends justifies the means he was justified in his actions While I don't believe that, I know a large number of people have justified Cerberus actions on a similar concept. In fact if anything you can draw plenty of paralels between a number of things Cerberus has done and Rael's actions(In fact it's so remarkably similar one wonders if Rael didnt draw it out of Cerberus' own playbook)

Determining quarian law is the quarian’s business, not Shepard’s. By agreeing to participate in the proceedings in an authorized capacity, he agreed to the parameters of that mandate. He was not given discretion to make judgement calls on behalf of the quarian people. He was asked to find evidence to clear Tali’s name—that’s all. And Tali gives him her weepy schpiel, and he’s supposed to just ignore his legal obligation to the quarians?

Now if you want to say Tali is selfish because the reason she asks you not to reveal the evidence is that it will tarnish her father's name, perhaps it was to some degree however I hardly see a compelling reason as to giving the data being selfless. Realistically looking at what might occur from giving the data what will happen? Nothing good. In fact I would be inclined to say that Tali not wanting to give the data had nothing to do with being selfish, and everything to do with being selfless and loyal to her father. In all likelyhood she assumed she was going to be exiled for not giving the evidence(she makes it pretty clear she believes the admiralty board has already decided her guilt) so if she doesn't give the evidence what happens to her? She's exiled, the worst punishment possible among the quarians. She would be considered guilty of treason.  She was willing to accept all of this, all to protect her father(Im obviously speaking at this from the perspective that Tali wouldn't know that Shepard can convince anyone that up is down, left is right and that Shepard is actually God all with one touch of a red or blue set of words )

I see this all the time and it drives me crazy.

You can’t use the result of an action to justify an action, because the result only occurs AFTER the action was completed. Shepard has no way of knowing what Daro’Xen or Han’Garrel will do with Rael’Zorah’s data before the trial commences. Shepard may not have even talked to the admirals before going to the Alarei. Shepard shouldn’t be concerned about the evidence itself, his job was to find it and present it. If he finds it and doesn’t present it, he’s perpetrating a gross miscarriage of justice, and allowing a quarian citizen to be exiled as a result. A living, non-exiled Tali is of much greater value to the quarian people than an unblemished Rael’Zorah legacy and an exiled Tali, even if it’s not what Tali wants. Especially since that’s what the EVIDENCE dictates. If you’re a court-appointed defense lawyer, do you let your client go to prison because she doesn’t want you to present evidence that her father committed the crime she’s accused of? NO. The law is clear, and Tali’s not in an emotional state to be making demands about how her case is handled. What happens afterward may include some unintended consequences, but that’s not something Shepard could know beyond doubt beforehand.

[ShadowLordXXX]

Siansonea II wrote...

ShadowLordXXX wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Tali—And then Tali's trial, where you have to cover up Rael'Zorah's war crimes to make Tali happy. Never mind all the quarians who died on the Alarei, whose souls cry out for justice ("Jona, be strong for Daddy, Mommy loves you very much!"). Nope, all Tali cares about is that her father's name not be stricken from the manifests of the ships he's served on, and that his name doesn't become an example of one of the worst war criminals in her people's history. The take away from that is, of course, that Rael'Zorah actually IS one of the worst war criminals in her people's history—and that's perfectly okay with Tali. She'd rather perpetuate a lie than tell the hard truth about her father, and I think that's a pretty crappy personality trait. So even though the fan community started my active dislike of the Tali character, it was Tali herself who cemented it with her unethical and immoral attitude.

Not going to go in on the other parts but this one is pretty innaccurate. First and foremost Id like to ask what justice? You do realize that everyone who died aboard the Alarei(excepting the marines who died boarding it) would also be considered war criminals, and in all likelyhood would recieve similar treatment as Rael, Rael would merely be held up as the mastermind behind it all. Furthermore Rael is DEAD. Seeing as he is dead what exact kind of justice do you plan on bringing to him? Making him more dead? 

The quarian government believe that the appropriate response is to strike his name from the records of the ships he has served on, and hold his name up as an example of one of the worst war criminals in quarian history, according to Tali. It’s their society, they should choose the appropriate response.

Oh and lets not even mention that Rael asks that you give the data. Why? because he believes that the data can be used to control the Geth,m and he knows that Xen and han gerrel WILL use it. So if you give them the data what you are actually doing is NOT getting the dead justice but rather tacitly condoning what he did by giving the data to(at least) the one person(Admiral Xen) who would use it to commit a far worse crime than Rael commited, the subjugation of an entire race.

What Rael’Zorah does or does not ask is immaterial. Shepard is acting as an officer of an Admiralty court, specifically as Tali’s advocate. Shepard agreed to look for evidence to exonerate Tali. He FINDS IT. But Tali pleads with him not to use it because of her emotional attachment to her father. Okay, I can understand her emotional state, but Shepard’s duty at this point is to the court and to Tali as a client on trial for treason. He found evidence to exonerate her. If he doesn’t present the evidence, and allows her to be exiled, he has failed in his duty to the Admiralty court and to Tali, even if she’s “happier” with the result. The Admiralty didn’t ask Shepard to go find some way to make Tali happy, they asked him to participate in a trial in an official capacity. That’s not something you just turn your back on because your friend looks at you with puppy-dog eyes.

Of course this assumes that the crime was Rael experimenting on active Geth. One could argue that the only thing he did wrong was to not take enough precautions. The whole "the ends justifies the means" mentality. It is apparent that Rael's ends were good(regain Quarian homeworld) and from the perspective that the ends justifies the means he was justified in his actions While I don't believe that, I know a large number of people have justified Cerberus actions on a similar concept. In fact if anything you can draw plenty of paralels between a number of things Cerberus has done and Rael's actions(In fact it's so remarkably similar one wonders if Rael didnt draw it out of Cerberus' own playbook)

Determining quarian law is the quarian’s business, not Shepard’s. By agreeing to participate in the proceedings in an authorized capacity, he agreed to the parameters of that mandate. He was not given discretion to make judgement calls on behalf of the quarian people. He was asked to find evidence to clear Tali’s name—that’s all. And Tali gives him her weepy schpiel, and he’s supposed to just ignore his legal obligation to the quarians?

Now if you want to say Tali is selfish because the reason she asks you not to reveal the evidence is that it will tarnish her father's name, perhaps it was to some degree however I hardly see a compelling reason as to giving the data being selfless. Realistically looking at what might occur from giving the data what will happen? Nothing good. In fact I would be inclined to say that Tali not wanting to give the data had nothing to do with being selfish, and everything to do with being selfless and loyal to her father. In all likelyhood she assumed she was going to be exiled for not giving the evidence(she makes it pretty clear she believes the admiralty board has already decided her guilt) so if she doesn't give the evidence what happens to her? She's exiled, the worst punishment possible among the quarians. She would be considered guilty of treason.  She was willing to accept all of this, all to protect her father(Im obviously speaking at this from the perspective that Tali wouldn't know that Shepard can convince anyone that up is down, left is right and that Shepard is actually God all with one touch of a red or blue set of words )

I see this all the time and it drives me crazy.

You can’t use the result of an action to justify an action, because the result only occurs AFTER the action was completed. Shepard has no way of knowing what Daro’Xen or Han’Garrel will do with Rael’Zorah’s data before the trial commences. Shepard may not have even talked to the admirals before going to the Alarei. Shepard shouldn’t be concerned about the evidence itself, his job was to find it and present it. If he finds it and doesn’t present it, he’s perpetrating a gross miscarriage of justice, and allowing a quarian citizen to be exiled as a result. A living, non-exiled Tali is of much greater value to the quarian people than an unblemished Rael’Zorah legacy and an exiled Tali, even if it’s not what Tali wants. Especially since that’s what the EVIDENCE dictates. If you’re a court-appointed defense lawyer, do you let your client go to prison because she doesn’t want you to present evidence that her father committed the crime she’s accused of? NO. The law is clear, and Tali’s not in an emotional state to be making demands about how her case is handled. What happens afterward may include some unintended consequences, but that’s not something Shepard could know beyond doubt beforehand.

Shepard is not obligated to give them any evidence, not sure where you get this idea. Shepard's only obligation is to try and prove Tali's innocence to the best of his ability. How he does this is up to his own discretion. What you are saying is equivalent to stating that a defense attorney must turn ove revidence to the prosecution that their client doesn't want to be given. He's under no obligation to do so.

Shepard also is NOT an acting officer of the admiralty board(no idea where you're getting this from). Shepard is far more equivalent to Tali's defense attorney than an officer of Quarian law. Shepard has full control over how he proves Tali's innocense(he actually was NOT asked to find evidence of Tali's innocense, he actually volunteered to attack the Alarei to take it back from the Geth, Tali actually was more worried about finding her father than evidence, it was Kal Reegar and Shala Raan who wanted you to find evidence) and therefore was under NO obligation to inform the admiralty board fo Rael's actions, had he actually covered up his actions(I.E. deleted the evidence) then he would have been breaking the law, but as it stands him not telling the admiralty board at the time about Rael's actions isn't even purgery.

What if Tali had left the fleet after you exposed Rael's actions. It's not too much of a stretch to believe that Tali may have actually commited suicide or went into self imposed exile after what would happen to her father
 It would be a pretty traumatic experience for her to deal with.

Furthermore my point isn't to say that Tali's an angel, nor that withholding the evidence is the right or wrong thing to do. I think that one can hardly call her selfish or evil for not wishing to have her father's name tarnished forever and isntead rather wishing to take the blame herself. Would you not do the same for someone you loved? I know that I would. What is the law and what is right isn't always the same thing. Tali is "human"(not literally ofc )  and her wanting to protect her fahter seems perfectly understandable to me, and not something Id hold against her.

[Quole]

Siansonea II wrote...

I also originally didn't care for Ashley, and it's only after some time that I've come to appreciate her. My big turnoff with Ash is her religion, since religion is a big turnoff for me in general. I thought her attitude toward aliens is perfectly understandable given her limited experience with them, and all too likely to be on-target. The poetry didn't grab me at first, but I always loved her devotion to her sisters. I always felt sad for Abby, Lynn and Sarah Williams on my playthroughs where Ash dies on Virmire. Ash is a strong woman, and I respect that, though I'd still say that I prefer Liara and Kaidan as LIs in ME1, mainly because I am naturally drawn to very Paragon characters like them.

Jacob always looked cross-eyed to me, and his mouth looked "alligatory" to me in my early playthroughs, but he looks good when he's not talking. And his abruptness was kind of a turnoff (did NOT like the "Already? I'm not big on forcing these talks, let's do this later" line) I did not like his attitude toward Thane, his bad tactical advice during the Suicide Mission, and his rather underwhelming response to his loyalty mission (it doesn't help that I really don't like his loyalty mission itself either, it's just gross with the exploitation of the Gernsback crew by Ronald Taylor). But over time I've come to appreciate Jacob's solid character. Unfortunately, Jacob's best lines are buried in the otherwise awful FemShep/Jacob romance dialogue. I'm hoping Jacob gets some redemption in ME3, because he's an unjustly maligned character in a lot of ways.

Tali—ugh, Tali. I was pretty indifferent toward her in ME1, though I tended to not talk to her after my first few playthroughs. It seemed like all she had to talk about was quarian and geth culture, very little about her personally, it all felt very impersonal. She was out of sight, out of mind for me—until I came to the ME1 boards and discovered the Talimancer Phenomenon. My first thought was "really?" I couldn't see why anyone would be attracted to Tali, then I did the math. I looked at her cleverly obscured face (intrigue!), that amazing waist-hips ratio, and that submissive personality with a veneer of spunkiness, and I realized what catnip that would be to young males. And sure enough, the Talimancer brigade seemed to really trend young. It seemed with the second Mass Effect novel that the Tali phenomenon had taken root, due to that novel's focus on the Migrant Fleet. Then in ME2, the full force of the Talimancer movement was underscored by Tali's front-and-center appearance in the prologue, as if BioWare was concerned that if they didn't show Tali pretty early in the game, the vocal Talimancer fans would rise up and revolt. There were any number of ways Freedom's Progress could have played out without quarians in general and Tali in particular. Heck, a human survivor locked in that building would have made just as much sense. But not only were the quarians present, but Tali just happened to be "leading" them (though Prazza didn't seem to get that memo, so much for Tali's effectiveness as a leader). But Big Strong Shepard gets to ride in and help out Tali, who submissively agrees to whatever Shepard does, she doesn't actually try to stop him from taking Veetor if that's what Shepard decides. And then Haestrom, rescued again. And then Tali's trial, where you have to cover up Rael'Zorah's war crimes to make Tali happy. Never mind all the quarians who died on the Alarei, whose souls cry out for justice ("Jona, be strong for Daddy, Mommy loves you very much!"). Nope, all Tali cares about is that her father's name not be stricken from the manifests of the ships he's served on, and that his name doesn't become an example of one of the worst war criminals in her people's history. The take away from that is, of course, that Rael'Zorah actually IS one of the worst war criminals in her people's history—and that's perfectly okay with Tali. She'd rather perpetuate a lie than tell the hard truth about her father, and I think that's a pretty crappy personality trait. So even though the fan community started my active dislike of the Tali character, it was Tali herself who cemented it with her unethical and immoral attitude.

Garrus has an awesome voice acting performance, but other than that, he never really registered with me in ME1. Then in ME2 his "fan favorite" status became clear, but unlike Tali it seemed to be a pretty natural progression from his chafing cop persona in the first game. It made sense that he'd flip off C-Sec and set up shop on Omega, even if he told Shepard that he was going back to C-Sec in ME1. The thing is that Garrus' famous calibrations stonewalling made me much less drawn to the character. He just doesn't seem to have much to say.

My favorite characters, of course are Mordin and Samara, who don't get a lot of play in the fan community the way Tali, Garrus, Legion, etc, do. It may well be that the relative lack of rabid fan devotion for those characters (in my awareness, at least) enhances my appreciation for those characters. They have depth, and they have some of the most interesting conversations on the Normandy. They also wrestle with the biggest moral dilemmas in the game.

Jack was one that took me a while to appreciate. I was put off by her exterior, but given her backstory, her character makes perfect sense. I don't buy her romance storyline, though what's there is pretty well done. It just goes from brittle to vulnerable too quickly, without any real catalyst for the catharsis. It just seemed like they skipped a step somewhere.

Thane, Zaeed, and Grunt just never grabbed me. Same goes for Wrex. Other fans' opinions didn't seem to change my attitude toward them much.

Ur rant on Tali actually made me facepalm.

[Quole]

Quole wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

I seems to me that you are convinced that your choices are purely Paragon, but to me they fall more along the lines of Lawful Neutral.

If you agree that what Rael did was wrong, why would you want the quarians to suffer for his mistakes? Because that's what's gonna happen if you give the data to the Admiralty board.

The quarians can either carry on with their lives in blissful ignorance, or enter a state of panic that will shatter their society.

If you talk to Tali after the mission, she even tells you that a lot of quarians have actually left the Migrant Fleet because of what happened.

Following the law blindly does not make you a "true" Paragon.

Blind adherence to the law is one of the several rest stops on the road to hell. I guess that makes me a neutral good

Well, let's hope you don't find yourself having to decide whether to actually tell the truth in someone's trial for TREASON. It's not like we're talking about Shepard telling his homeowner's association to eff off because they sent him a notice saying that he has too much red paint color on the exterior of the Normandy. It's TREASON. You're LYING in an official TRIAL. Personally, I think that's a crappy thing to do. That's not being a "stickler for the rules". That's not "blind adherence". That's not being a whistleblower for jaywalkers. Come ON.

...and telling the truth in that trial would only encourage the quarians to go to war. Something that would make both them and geth vulnerable for when the reapers show up. This is even said in game. So lying is entirely justified and actually benefits everyone more.
The ONLY good that could possibly come out of telling the truth is giving the relatives of the those that died some comfort... which is something they would get anyway by lying to the admirals. I suppose you might also want to punish Tali`s father as well, but there would be no point because hes dead and the only person you would be punishing is Tali, as well as everyone else (like I said above). So no, theres no reason whatsoever to tell the truth.

I dont understand why people have such a hard time understanding that.

...Oh wait, people are stupid, I forgot.

[Golden Owl]

TomY90 wrote...

Ill give you a miranda perspective for you

With miranda she is always been said to be a cold, calculating person who feels she is above everyone else (due to her talking about her biotics and gifts often)

Hmmm...I haven't actually considered her 'biotics and gifts' dialogs as the catalyst of Miranda being seen as cold and calculating, I can't really see it either, coming across as self absorbed with those dialogs, yes....though more on that in a moment.... but cold/calculating, no.....I do see her as cold/calculating, but for the fact that she too often seems more than happy to leave others behind: the Cerberus Station, crew on Collector Base.....Her dialog with Jack, the control chip, Veetor, defense of ME1 experiments.

which that is because of her childhood and her life afterwards which she was instantly expected to extremely high standards from her whether its her biotics or her looks she was expected by her father to be perfect in every single way eventhough she is still human making her still possible to make human error

She grew up with no childhood at all with no friends apart from Niket making her very cold person considering from a very young age she likely never had much contact with many people at all. (likely to have caused her not have much of a sense of humour as well)

her childhood got more unusual when her younger twin was born and she ran away with her baby sister and got help from cerberus which pretty much saw her as a resource and used her as much as possible to progress cerberus's goals which further makes her more cold and shows she is willing to sacrifice her own well being to help those she loves.

She does have the most in common with shepherd out of all the mass effect characters because as miranda said 'us both were engineered for greatness, the only difference is that you were already great before we rebuilt you' and they have the same levels of responsibility and expectations thrusted upon them both and usually they also have the same unusual upbringing (in my case my parents got killed in a raider attack)

I certainly understand Miranda hasn't had a pleasant life and am not going into comparisons between hers and Jacks lives and ask others not too for the sake of this conversation, yes her life maybe a blessed bed of roses in comparison to Jacks, but that still does not negate the fact that Miranda did have an unhappy childhood....I understand that Miranda has had a lot of constant pressure on her to be certain things to certain people and understand that she is reacting and the love for her sister, yes, I see that too.

Miranda's chosen reactions to her life experiences does leave a lot to be desired though Tom...in a way she has become what she has been running from...she has become her father, in as much as she also has come to see others as merely tools to be used....Her sister seems to be the only agent in her life with which she allows herself to feel. I think the thing is Tom, that would be all well and good if she didn't have the potential to have such an influence and impact on the lives of others, as it stands she is too willing to allow the destruction/pain of others, seen as nothing more than disposable tools.

My Shep is Earthborn, I am not sure if he would really be able to relate to Miranda's upbringing, nor she to his...both of the more unsual ilk in their child hoods, yes...but in very different ways.

she is jealous in a way of shepherd because of him/her achieving everything 'due to your skill' which she does say 'the only things I can take credit for is my mistakes' that does show as well she has major issues with her history involving how she was born and brought up because she feels everything she achieved was because of the gifts she were given by her father.

Actually, I have never taken that as a jealous comment from Miranda....more so a sad comment, she is a deeply sad woman and feels as if she is nothing more than a composite of her fathers wishes...I do feel for her in regards to her personal views of herself and I do like paragon Sheps response to that and hope it pays off a little at least in ME3, have her take some serious time to re-evaluate herself by her own merits....Though it still does not negate her callous treatment and views of others.

I think she does become less of an 'ice queen' during ME because she has never been treated for anything else than a resource to be used by other people to achieve their own personal goals which does create the cold exterior which you clearly see from the start which in ME2 (paragon) you do treat her like a human being not a tool to be used like cerberus and her father.

Yes, granted Tom...paragon Shep ( I can't answer for renegade Shep, as I don't play one) could possibly from what is understood be Miranda's first experience in being viewed by her own merits, I'm not sure on that one...how did Jacob treat her? Do we have enough information to know.

When she gets closer to shepherd you do see that the actual miranda starts to come out to such an extent she does cry whether involving oriana (her younger twin sister), Jacob (ex lover) or shepherd (male romance), sometimes she even laughs at what shepherd says to her and she does show more of her emotions throughout the game to such an extent its impossible to call her an ice queen.

Liara does some up quite well how much Miranda changes.

Liara 'She was so cold when I 1st met her, completely focused on her duty'

Shepherd 'I don't know if she has lightened up much'

Liara 'she has, believe me you have no idea how much you have changed her'

My Shep has in fact romanced Miranda in 3 games...though they have not been canon games...my canon Shep in fact remains single. So yes, I am quite aware of her tears and laughter, she has her moments of humanity...though it still does not negate the fact that she has been responsible for (or attempted to be) and supported others who have been responsible for direct mistreatment of or heinous crimes against others.

and for those who call her a cerberus b***h she does quit during the suicide mission because of the illusive man wanting her to stop shepherd blowing up the collector base and she acknowledges that they consider her as a resource by saying 'or what, your going to replace me next'

so in ME3 pretty much guaranteed she will be not with cerberus regardless of if you saved the base or not.

Shep and what she has seen on the Lazarus mission has gotten through to her....it will be interesting to see how that plays out in ME3....could be her redemption.

In summary I will say the following

she is a character you naturally dislike at 1st (i believe they did that on purpose) and overtime she lightens up and opens up you more like a flower and you then truly see the real miranda behind that cold business like exterior which you find on the outside a cold, calculating, confident women but in the inside you find a emotional scarred, loving women who takes her sisters life more important than her own and is the character you find to have most in common with due to your skills and what you two are expected to achieve.

P.S. sorry for long message I am never any good at trying to summarise my opinions.

if you still unsure about miranda just do a paragon romance with her you will see the real miranda not the cold one you see at the start

Is more than fine...a long message was needed for explaining perception....

[Raiil]

I have a much better outlook on Miranda after sifting through her boards. Not that I ever actively disliked her- I like all the Normandy SR2 crew- but perspective helped.


My dislike of Ashley has only grown from the boards. I didn't like her to begin with, and while there are some rational explanations of her behaviour, some of her comments are too close to what I've heard in real life to be able to ever care for her.

[GuardianAngel470]

Quole wrote...

Quole wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

I seems to me that you are convinced that your choices are purely Paragon, but to me they fall more along the lines of Lawful Neutral.

If you agree that what Rael did was wrong, why would you want the quarians to suffer for his mistakes? Because that's what's gonna happen if you give the data to the Admiralty board.

The quarians can either carry on with their lives in blissful ignorance, or enter a state of panic that will shatter their society.

If you talk to Tali after the mission, she even tells you that a lot of quarians have actually left the Migrant Fleet because of what happened.

Following the law blindly does not make you a "true" Paragon.

Blind adherence to the law is one of the several rest stops on the road to hell. I guess that makes me a neutral good

Well, let's hope you don't find yourself having to decide whether to actually tell the truth in someone's trial for TREASON. It's not like we're talking about Shepard telling his homeowner's association to eff off because they sent him a notice saying that he has too much red paint color on the exterior of the Normandy. It's TREASON. You're LYING in an official TRIAL. Personally, I think that's a crappy thing to do. That's not being a "stickler for the rules". That's not "blind adherence". That's not being a whistleblower for jaywalkers. Come ON.

...and telling the truth in that trial would only encourage the quarians to go to war. Something that would make both them and geth vulnerable for when the reapers show up. This is even said in game. So lying is entirely justified and actually benefits everyone more.
The ONLY good that could possibly come out of telling the truth is giving the relatives of the those that died some comfort... which is something they would get anyway by lying to the admirals. I suppose you might also want to punish Tali`s father as well, but there would be no point because hes dead and the only person you would be punishing is Tali, as well as everyone else (like I said above). So no, theres no reason whatsoever to tell the truth.

I dont understand why people have such a hard time understanding that.

...Oh wait, people are stupid, I forgot.

I love it how you guys have effectively derailed Golden OWL's thread. Especially Siansonea who completely missed the point of the OP and instead used her thread to rant about how he DISLIKES characters and how he discredits the fanbases.

To be on topic, I never really changed my mind because of forumites or their posts. I changed my mind about Jack and Miranda over the course of 14+ playthroughs and that wasn't because of the forums.

Although, I did change my opinion about Ashley due to having to back up my opinion here but that wasn't really the effects of others but more my own inner analysis.

[TheTouch]

My opinion of Liara went downhill when I suggested the threesome with her and Ash. Ash walked away disgusted (as she would) and Liara acted as if I'd chosen her. No, my dear, Shep wanted group sex, not a relationship with a 6 foot smurf!  Until then I actually liked her, but now I just see her as naiive.

Modifié par TheTouch, 06 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[ShadowSplicer]

Alright, I'll have a go at this. I'm just going to mention who I hate, why I hate them, and hope that you guys can somehow elaborate on why they are worth paying attention to:
Ashley: Ashley is my most hated character, without a doubt. I have replayed Mass Effect on various difficulties, with all classes, and NEVER ONCE have I been able to not leave her to burn on Virmire. She is an insulting, racist, ugly pig of a character and must be eradicated from the universe. She is scum.
Jacob: Jacob is a close second. While at first he seems pretty cool, a loyal and kind hearted person... Later however, his true nature comes out: He seems like he's just trying to somehow take advantage of a Paragon Shepard and starts to be... Well, kind of an ****. I still lack the No One Left Behind achievement because I cannot resist the urge to kill him off... That and Mass Effect Galaxy was unforgivable. XD
Udina: Oh come on, do I really need to explain this?
Shepard: Not because of Shepard himself, but because the person playing him is just so damn ugly-Wait a minute...

And finally, my favorite character of ALL TIME in the Mass Effect universe is definitely and far and away the Turian Councilor.


But in all seriousness, yeah, that's who I hate.

[Golden Owl]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...



I love it how you guys have effectively derailed Golden OWL's thread. Especially Siansonea who completely missed the point of the OP and instead used her thread to rant about how he DISLIKES characters and how he discredits the fanbases.

To be on topic, I never really changed my mind because of forumites or their posts. I changed my mind about Jack and Miranda over the course of 14+ playthroughs and that wasn't because of the forums.

Although, I did change my opinion about Ashley due to having to back up my opinion here but that wasn't really the effects of others but more my own inner analysis.

Thank you GuardianAngel...I had been hoping it could be a fairly positive thread, examining who we have changed our perceptions of and why, in a positive sense, I guess it's not that easy.

Thank you for the help....

[Golden Owl]

ShadowSplicer wrote...

Alright, I'll have a go at this. I'm just going to mention who I hate, why I hate them, and hope that you guys can somehow elaborate on why they are worth paying attention to:
Ashley: Ashley is my most hated character, without a doubt. I have replayed Mass Effect on various difficulties, with all classes, and NEVER ONCE have I been able to not leave her to burn on Virmire. She is an insulting, racist, ugly pig of a character and must be eradicated from the universe. She is scum.
Jacob: Jacob is a close second. While at first he seems pretty cool, a loyal and kind hearted person... Later however, his true nature comes out: He seems like he's just trying to somehow take advantage of a Paragon Shepard and starts to be... Well, kind of an ****. I still lack the No One Left Behind achievement because I cannot resist the urge to kill him off... That and Mass Effect Galaxy was unforgivable. XD
Udina: Oh come on, do I really need to explain this?
Shepard: Not because of Shepard himself, but because the person playing him is just so damn ugly-Wait a minute...

And finally, my favorite character of ALL TIME in the Mass Effect universe is definitely and far and away the Turian Councilor.


But in all seriousness, yeah, that's who I hate.

Ummm....you have kinda missed the point of this thread ShadowSplicer, it's not a hate on NPC's and I am not looking to change anyone's else's perceptions....did you read my original post?