58 réponses à ce sujet

[Labrev]

What don't you like about krogan/salarians?

[Asari_Party]

I used to like Tali but this forum made me hate her.

[Shanya]

Jacob : I disliked him at the beggining... now I dislike him even more. I dont know, it is just something about his behavior that gets on my nerves... Everytime that I force my Shepard to talk with him I want to be able for my Shepard to punch him in the face or... hm... kick him somewhere else. And I would also gladly punch my femShep when she talks with him... she just gets obnoxious... I hate the fact that he is always in the CIC voicing his opinion... I would much prefer Garrus there or whoever, Jack for crying out loud... just not Jacob. I said I would make one Shepy just for him... but hell, he always pisses me off...<_<
Miranda : It is nothing seriously agains her, it is just that I hate her clothes. Had to say that even if my opinion of her looking at forums didnt changed.
Tali: I realy liked her, seemed nice... but seeing how many people are obssesing over her... well, I dont like her as much anymore, I dont know, it just is so.
Udina: I totaly hated the guy... but now I totaly love to hate him. This site did changed my mind on him.

Other characters I actualy like, each on its own way. Oh, and by the way, Keeper 20 ROX!

[jamesp81]

In my first ME1 playthrough, I did NOT like Wrex.  I recruited him because he's great in a fight, but after that first conversation on the Normandy where my Shepard's only conversation options were "herp" or "derp" and after Wrex's admittedly justified "****** off" response, I didn't talk to him anymore.  Figured the damage was done, and I didn't want to be standing next to him if he decided twisting my head off would be good entertainment.

On subsequent playthroughs I forced myself to talk to him and that changed my perception; now I really like him.  Wrex's greeting in ME2 is truly an excellent moment.

Garrus was just "alright" in ME1, initially.  I was a little bit concerned about his attitude on some things.  However, when it came to hunting down Dr Saleon, I just couldn't bring myself to disagree that shooting him was the right thing to do.  Garrus grew on me, and in ME2 became my epic chief bro.  Garrus doesn't do things like I do, but it's not a problem.  He doesn't second guess me or criticize my decisions, so I ain't going to criticize him either.  In these sorts of epically ****ty situations, it's hard to know the right answer.  I do my best, so does Garrus.  That will have to be good enough as it's all either of us has.

I took a bit of a liking to Samara initially, but the more I spoke with her, the more I really liked her.  I can appreciate that she's a traditionalist within her own society, and the rampant fears the people on Illium expressed about her turned out to be false.  Much like real people who hold traditional views, what they're really like and what the world tells you they're like are two *very* different things.

Tali's an interesting one.  I liked her well enough in ME1.  I really grew to care about her as a person in ME2, but at the same time, I grew to *despise* the Quarian government.  The admiralty board is an unelected body and is not fit to rule, IMO, not after the stunt they pulled with that damned show trial.  It's obvious that they'd wield military authority, but it's immediately clear in the Codex and elsewhere that they also wield civil power.  This is just a bit too close to a military dictatorship.  In any group of politicians, you'd expect some of them to want to pull **** like that show trial.  But every damned one of them had an agenda BESIDES seeing justice done.  Every. Single. One.  Even Han'Gerrell, who I liked as a person, had an angle.  Koris's angle might've been good for the fleet as a whole, but he clearly had no respect for fair trials, justice for its own sake, or individual freedom and liberty.  The fact that he's a pompous ass doesn't help him much either.

I didn't like Zaeed at first.  He said and did some things I found highly disturbing.  But he grows on you.  He ain't really that different than anyone else except that he doesn't bother to hide his flaws.  In that sense, he's honest.  And he's just too damned good to not have on your team.  Inferno grenade face stomps husks once they're armor is gone, he's a good sniper, and has crazy bonus damage from his class passive.  Early on, before his loyalty mission, squad disruptor ammo is nice (after loyalty, though, I re spec him and put the points into inferno grenade).  He's also a power house character for the Hold the Line portion of the SM.

I did NOT like Jack the moment I met her.  I was starting to look for the convo option that amounted to "you know, this was a mistake.  Kill her and let's get out of here."  I've softened some towards her.  I understand why she is like she is.  What Cerberus did to her is criminal.  Still, my Shepard goes to sleep every night in his cabin fretting over the fact that she's about 10 feet from the ship's eezo core, where a biotic tantrum just might destroy the ship.

I didn't like Miranda at first either.  I have a natural aversion to Ice Queens anyway, but she came off as not just an ice queen, but an arrogant, uncaring, hardcore **** to boot.  But it was kind of like with Jack.  As I talked to her, I couldn't bring myself to hate her anymore.  I pity her a great deal, something a woman like her would undoubtedly find annoying.  But for most of her life, she wasn't her own person.  She was someone else's project.  It drives her incredibly hard to prove that she's her own a person, a REAL person, and not just some machine engineered to be perfect.  I wish for her own sake she didn't feel the need to be invincible all the time (same could be said for Samara as well).

I always liked all the rest of them.  Subsequent playthroughs have generally made me like them somewhat more, but didn't change my view on them as radically as those I mentioned above.

Udina and the Turian Councilor get an honorable mention.  I always hated both of those sons of a ****es, but I do so love to hate them.  In my ME1 playthroughs, I always think "I oughtta let that turian bastard fry" but I can't.  His brand of pompous arrogance is so unique, that I MUST keep him alive for the inevitable "Ahh yes, reapers" comment I will be making to him in ME3.  As for Udina, I need him around to shake his fist at landing Reapers and yell "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!"

Modifié par jamesp81, 06 juin 2011 - 09:20 .

[Golden Owl]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

What don't you like about krogan/salarians?

Krogan's: Their extreme aggression and warring nature.

Salarians: This one is a little more difficult to explain, quite a personal thing, I don't cope well with high speed and chaotic thought processing or activities...the Salarians are the embodiment of these, just dealing with the Salarians set me on edge. I am something of a prime mover myself, everything slowed down and steady...in life and games....probably why I'm sh*t at CQC in ME, but a very good sniper....Sniping is clean, CQC is chaotic...Salarians are just too chaotic for me....Does that make any sense?

[Golden Owl]

Shanya wrote...

Jacob : I disliked him at the beggining... now I dislike him even more. I dont know, it is just something about his behavior that gets on my nerves... Everytime that I force my Shepard to talk with him I want to be able for my Shepard to punch him in the face or... hm... kick him somewhere else. And I would also gladly punch my femShep when she talks with him... she just gets obnoxious... I hate the fact that he is always in the CIC voicing his opinion... I would much prefer Garrus there or whoever, Jack for crying out loud... just not Jacob. I said I would make one Shepy just for him... but hell, he always pisses me off...<_<
Miranda : It is nothing seriously agains her, it is just that I hate her clothes. Had to say that even if my opinion of her looking at forums didnt changed.
Tali: I realy liked her, seemed nice... but seeing how many people are obssesing over her... well, I dont like her as much anymore, I dont know, it just is so.
Udina: I totaly hated the guy... but now I totaly love to hate him. This site did changed my mind on him.

Other characters I actualy like, each on its own way. Oh, and by the way, Keeper 20 ROX!

I played my first femShep recently and had heard about the issue with Jacob, but curiousity got the better of me, had her speak with him up until her dialog got creepy and just WOW...No...I couldn't bring myself to have her dialog with him again, it was just so NO!

[Golden Owl]

jamesp81 wrote...

In my first ME1 playthrough, I did NOT like Wrex.  I recruited him because he's great in a fight, but after that first conversation on the Normandy where my Shepard's only conversation options were "herp" or "derp" and after Wrex's admittedly justified "****** off" response, I didn't talk to him anymore.  Figured the damage was done, and I didn't want to be standing next to him if he decided twisting my head off would be good entertainment.

On subsequent playthroughs I forced myself to talk to him and that changed my perception; now I really like him.  Wrex's greeting in ME2 is truly an excellent moment.

Yes, I didn't like Sheps responses either in that conversation, he came across as an idiot.

Garrus was just "alright" in ME1, initially.  I was a little bit concerned about his attitude on some things.  However, when it came to hunting down Dr Saleon, I just couldn't bring myself to disagree that shooting him was the right thing to do.  Garrus grew on me, and in ME2 became my epic chief bro.  Garrus doesn't do things like I do, but it's not a problem.  He doesn't second guess me or criticize my decisions, so I ain't going to criticize him either.  In these sorts of epically ****ty situations, it's hard to know the right answer.  I do my best, so does Garrus.  That will have to be good enough as it's all either of us has.

Garrus is my favorite character, pretty much for what I have bolded above...Garrus does his best, tries his hardest...he lives by a code of passion...it sometimes makes him something of a rogue and a renegade, but his heart is truly in the right place....thats how I see him anyway.

I took a bit of a liking to Samara initially, but the more I spoke with her, the more I really liked her.  I can appreciate that she's a traditionalist within her own society, and the rampant fears the people on Illium expressed about her turned out to be false.  Much like real people who hold traditional views, what they're really like and what the world tells you they're like are two *very* different things.

Samara....I have never really understood the hate on her, she hasn't had much of an impact on me really, I kinda keep forgeting about her presense....it's not dislike though, just lack of impression. I understand her code, I may not totally agree with it, but its different culture...and that I can respect.

Tali's an interesting one.  I liked her well enough in ME1.  I really grew to care about her as a person in ME2, but at the same time, I grew to *despise* the Quarian government.  The admiralty board is an unelected body and is not fit to rule, IMO, not after the stunt they pulled with that damned show trial.  It's obvious that they'd wield military authority, but it's immediately clear in the Codex and elsewhere that they also wield civil power.  This is just a bit too close to a military dictatorship.  In any group of politicians, you'd expect some of them to want to pull **** like that show trial.  But every damned one of them had an agenda BESIDES seeing justice done.  Every. Single. One.  Even Han'Gerrell, who I liked as a person, had an angle.  Koris's angle might've been good for the fleet as a whole, but he clearly had no respect for fair trials, justice for its own sake, or individual freedom and liberty.  The fact that he's a pompous ass doesn't help him much either.

Ditto...I agree 100%.

I didn't like Zaeed at first.  He said and did some things I found highly disturbing.  But he grows on you.  He ain't really that different than anyone else except that he doesn't bother to hide his flaws.  In that sense, he's honest.  And he's just too damned good to not have on your team.  Inferno grenade face stomps husks once they're armor is gone, he's a good sniper, and has crazy bonus damage from his class passive.  Early on, before his loyalty mission, squad disruptor ammo is nice (after loyalty, though, I re spec him and put the points into inferno grenade).  He's also a power house character for the Hold the Line portion of the SM.

Another Ditto...100%.

I did NOT like Jack the moment I met her.  I was starting to look for the convo option that amounted to "you know, this was a mistake.  Kill her and let's get out of here."  I've softened some towards her.  I understand why she is like she is.  What Cerberus did to her is criminal.  Still, my Shepard goes to sleep every night in his cabin fretting over the fact that she's about 10 feet from the ship's eezo core, where a biotic tantrum just might destroy the ship.

And another 100%.

I didn't like Miranda at first either.  I have a natural aversion to Ice Queens anyway, but she came off as not just an ice queen, but an arrogant, uncaring, hardcore **** to boot.  But it was kind of like with Jack.  As I talked to her, I couldn't bring myself to hate her anymore.  I pity her a great deal, something a woman like her would undoubtedly find annoying.  But for most of her life, she wasn't her own person.  She was someone else's project.  It drives her incredibly hard to prove that she's her own a person, a REAL person, and not just some machine engineered to be perfect.  I wish for her own sake she didn't feel the need to be invincible all the time (same could be said for Samara as well).

A lot of respect here James, you have listened to the dialogs and put good thought into who is who, going below the surface...I have really enjoyed your post...Thank you.

In regards to Miranda...I responded to someone on page one on the subject of Miranda...you may find it interesting....actually I would like to ask you your thoughts on it?

I always liked all the rest of them.  Subsequent playthroughs have generally made me like them somewhat more, but didn't change my view on them as radically as those I mentioned above.

Udina and the Turian Councilor get an honorable mention.  I always hated both of those sons of a ****es, but I do so love to hate them.  In my ME1 playthroughs, I always think "I oughtta let that turian bastard fry" but I can't.  His brand of pompous arrogance is so unique, that I MUST keep him alive for the inevitable "Ahh yes, reapers" comment I will be making to him in ME3.  As for Udina, I need him around to shake his fist at landing Reapers and yell "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!"

[HogarthHughes 3]

I didn't want to have Jack on the team at all when I first played the game. A mentally unstable criminal with incredible biotic abilities didn't really appeal to me. After reading about the paragon romance (pretty sure someone here has already said almost the exact same thing) I then decided to try talking to her more. She turned out to be more than just a violent psychopath, though I still like many other characters more than her.

I suppose renegade Shepard doesn't count as an NPC, but I'll talk about him/her anyways. My first couple times through ME1 were completely paragon, and even when I tried going through ME2 as a renegade I just ended up switching back halfway through. The major renegade decisions, and the vast majority of the minor ones, all just seemed so pointless and cruel. I dismissed the renegade path as just a way to be a jerk for the fun of it.

However, after spending some time perusing the forums and reading some of the justifications for the renegade choices I warmed up to them a little bit. I gave the renegade path another shot, and while I couldn't go full renegade all the time, my Shepard could be called a "renegon." It was fun to be an angry, heartless, mistrustful, arrogant jerk who despite all his flaws is out for the greater good. Now I can't go back to paragon, or "paragade," as they just seem so dull and unoriginal by comparison.

The idea of the "dark hero" is just so much more compelling to me than the goody-two shoes who always does right and jumps to comfort everyone in need. If I want to see the story of the triumphant hero with no real flaws (I suppose the term Mary Sue would be appropriate) I'll just watch Lord of the Rings or perhaps the Star Wars saga and be satisfied. Mass Effect got about ten times more interesting to me thanks to the renegade path, and I have the forums to thank for introducing me to it.

[MisterJB]

Golden Owl wrote...
I do see her as cold/calculating, but for the fact that she too often seems more than happy to leave others behind: the Cerberus Station, crew on Collector Base

Miranda is cold, yes. However, I do not believe she is calculating. She is practical and rational.
Yes, she is willing to leave people behind if that means success. But this is because she is not willing to take unnecessary risks (and in these cases the consequence is the extinction of the Human race) and she does not do it happily. If you talk to her on Lazarus Station 2, she'll express anger for all the people who lost their lives to bring Shepard back. She also claims that she is glad to find the crew alive in the Collector ship.

Her dialog with Jack,

Let's be honest, Jack never even tried to be friendly to Miranda and she was the one who barged in her office.
If you take Miranda to Pragia, you'll see that she does not approve of what happened there and, if you ask her about it afterwards, politely BTW, Miranda will admit that Cerberus was not entirely guilt free of what happened to Jack and that it was a mistake.
Miranda lost her temper but it was, at least partially, Jack's fault.

the control chip

Before working with Shepard, Miranda did not believe that he was capable of doing what Cerberus expected him to do. Cerberus, a group she filmy believed on, was spending billions of credits and placing the fate of the entire Human race in the hands of just one man. A man who also happened to have destroyed several of Cerberus's bases before.
So, the control chip was a way of making sure that Shepard would not commit mistakes that could compromise the entire mission and even a way of controlling him in case he turned out to be violent towards Cerberus, kind of like an "escape hatchet".
Is it ethical? No, but I think it's at least justifiable.

,Veetor

Yes, Miranda can be cold. However, we should remind ourselves that humans were disappearing every day and Veetor could have had important information. Drastic times call for drastic measures.
And even so, Veetor was not tortured. He was just always fragile.

defense of ME1 experiments.

What's wrong with them?
Husks and Creepers were already dead so, as long as Cerberus was not purposely turning humans into such, there are no reasons why they shouldn't try to control them. Many lives could be saved that way.
As for the Rachni, they tought they were animal so taming them would be no different than riding horses to war. If they did stop the experiments when they realized they were sentient, what's wrong with it?

her life maybe a blessed bed of roses in comparison to Jacks,

I think it's unfair to claim that Miranda had it easier than Jack before we know exactly what happened under Mr. Lawson's roof. For example, how did Miranda gain her biotics? Humanity only discovered Element Zero a year or so after she was born. We at the Miranda fan thread have speculated that it was through the Krogan process, directly implanting Eezo nodules onto her nervous system.
And of course, we don't know what methods Mr. Lawson used to develop her biotics.

she has become her father, in as much as she also has come to see others as merely tools to be used

Live I've said above, it's true that Miranda puts the success of the mission above the well being of the individual.
However, she has shown concern for the people who work with her so, she doesn't see them as tools.

though it still does not negate the fact that she has been responsible for (or attempted to be) and supported others who have been responsible for direct mistreatment of or heinous crimes against others.

What heinous crimes has Miranda supported?
She is against Pragia, does not approve of enslaving sentient beings (the Rachni), is against using the Collector Base...
Do you mean Veetor? I agree it was mistreatment but humans were disappearing. Cerberus was not gentle with him but they didn’t torture him so, it’s not a heinous crime.

There is another important thing to mention, I think. Miranda has an idealistic, even naïve, viewpoint regarding Cerberus. She thinks they are a lot better than they really are. An example of this is on the Collector Cruiser, where Miranda is appalled by the idea that The Illusive Man might betray his own people, which proves again that Miranda does not see people as tools.
As she herself states, Miranda believes in the advancement and preservation of humanity. But at the end of the game, The Illusive Man admits that Cerberus is about domination.
Now, you might claim that Miranda had to know better. However, think about it. Cerberus works through Cells, the only sources Miranda could receive information from regarding the other cells ‘s work would either be from TIM, who would filter it, or Alliance reports, which she would find unreliable.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 juin 2011 - 10:05 .

[MisterJB]

Saphra Deden wrote...
She's always trying to maintain a certain image and gain leverage over everyone else. Not for malicious intent, but to protect herself.

Possibly but the one person I remember Miranda trying to gain leverage over was Shepard with the control chip. And even then it was a special case like I explained in my previous post, I would call it being “cautious”, not “calculating”.
A truly calculating person would have made copies of the data found on Tali's LM or argued in favor of keeping the Genophage Cure.
I would not even have minded if they had made her more calculating, actually. I just didn’t get the impression that she was scheming anything. That’s more of a trait I would associate with The Illusive Man.

[Homebound]

I tried to like Ashley, but her fan-thread made me hate her.

[Labrev]

MisterJB wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
I do see her as cold/calculating, but for the fact that she too often seems more than happy to leave others behind: the Cerberus Station, crew on Collector Base

Miranda is cold, yes. However, I do not believe she is calculating. She is practical and rational.
Yes, she is willing to leave people behind if that means success. But this is because she is not willing to take unnecessary risks (and in these cases the consequence is the extinction of the Human race) and she does not do it happily. If you talk to her on Lazarus Station 2, she'll express anger for all the people who lost their lives to bring Shepard back. She also claims that she is glad to find the crew alive in the Collector ship.

Her dialog with Jack,

Let's be honest, Jack never even tried to be friendly to Miranda and she was the one who barged in her office.
If you take Miranda to Pragia, you'll see that she does not approve of what happened there and, if you ask her about it afterwards, politely BTW, Miranda will admit that Cerberus was not entirely guilt free of what happened to Jack and that it was a mistake.
Miranda lost her temper but it was, at least partially, Jack's fault.

the control chip

Before working with Shepard, Miranda did not believe that he was capable of doing what Cerberus expected him to do. Cerberus, a group she filmy believed on, was spending billions of credits and placing the fate of the entire Human race in the hands of just one man. A man who also happened to have destroyed several of Cerberus's bases before.
So, the control chip was a way of making sure that Shepard would not commit mistakes that could compromise the entire mission and even a way of controlling him in case he turned out to be violent towards Cerberus, kind of like an "escape hatchet".
Is it ethical? No, but I think it's at least justifiable.

,Veetor

Yes, Miranda can be cold. However, we should remind ourselves that humans were disappearing every day and Veetor could have had important information. Drastic times call for drastic measures.
And even so, Veetor was not tortured. He was just always fragile.

defense of ME1 experiments.

What's wrong with them?
Husks and Creepers were already dead so, as long as Cerberus was not purposely turning humans into such, there are no reasons why they shouldn't try to control them. Many lives could be saved that way.
As for the Rachni, they tought they were animal so taming them would be no different than riding horses to war. If they did stop the experiments when they realized they were sentient, what's wrong with it?

her life maybe a blessed bed of roses in comparison to Jacks,

I think it's unfair to claim that Miranda had it easier than Jack before we know exactly what happened under Mr. Lawson's roof. For example, how did Miranda gain her biotics? Humanity only discovered Element Zero a year or so after she was born. We at the Miranda fan thread have speculated that it was through the Krogan process, directly implanting Eezo nodules onto her nervous system.
And of course, we don't know what methods Mr. Lawson used to develop her biotics.

she has become her father, in as much as she also has come to see others as merely tools to be used

Live I've said above, it's true that Miranda puts the success of the mission above the well being of the individual.
However, she has shown concern for the people who work with her so, she doesn't see them as tools.

though it still does not negate the fact that she has been responsible for (or attempted to be) and supported others who have been responsible for direct mistreatment of or heinous crimes against others.

What heinous crimes has Miranda supported?
She is against Pragia, does not approve of enslaving sentient beings (the Rachni), is against using the Collector Base...
Do you mean Veetor? I agree it was mistreatment but humans were disappearing. Cerberus was not gentle with him but they didn’t torture him so, it’s not a heinous crime.

There is another important thing to mention, I think. Miranda has an idealistic, even naïve, viewpoint regarding Cerberus. She thinks they are a lot better than they really are. An example of this is on the Collector Cruiser, where Miranda is appalled by the idea that The Illusive Man might betray his own people, which proves again that Miranda does not see people as tools.
As she herself states, Miranda believes in the advancement and preservation of humanity. But at the end of the game, The Illusive Man admits that Cerberus is about domination.
Now, you might claim that Miranda had to know better. However, think about it. Cerberus works through Cells, the only sources Miranda could receive information from regarding the other cells ‘s work would either be from TIM, who would filter it, or Alliance reports, which she would find unreliable.

That's a hell of a lot of excuses. I guess that's to be expected, when one tries to love "the perfect woman" but have to answer to the fact that, she's got a ton of flaws.

Let me say, as a Jack fan, I don't make excuses for her behavior. She has reasons for being what she is, but it doesn't make what she does right. Same with Miranda. She may have been through a lot, it was but undoubtedly less than Jack. She still chooses to be the woman she is, and she's pretty downright cruel and arrogant at times. (Note: I do not hate Miranda).

As for your points...

Jack: we don't know the details of who started the catfight, you can't say that she barged into her office, for one. For two, Miranda is more than 10 years older than Jack, so you'd expect she'd "know better" than to get into a petty fight just because Jack hates Cerberus. Newsflash, half the squad hates/distrusts her and Cerberus. Garrus, Tali, even Jacob is vocal about it. Everyone on the team knows that Cerberus has a history of betrayal (someone not named Miranda will bring it up on the Collector Vessel mission). She's second-in-command, and she's making trouble with other squadmates? Some leader she is.

Control Chip: this is hilarious. The game is not that complex, it is clear that the control chip Miranda wanted in place was for one reason only: to override decisions she did not approve of. She never voiced concerns that Shepard would go ballistic on them, just that he was a threat for what they "stood for" and so obviously, she didn't want Shepard's ethics to interfere with Cerberus's own goals. That's it. It was no security measure, it was Miranda not having respect for Shepard's choices. Besides, she hadn't even planned to let Shepard know he was with Cerberus 'til he talked to TIM.

Veetor: if she really thought the quarian had any more valuable info, she's an idiot. He was mentally unstable. Whatever they got out of him was probably all he was going to get. And it was, if you send him to Cerberus, they say that they found out nothing new from his interrogation. Even as a hardcore renegade in one career, I sent him back because it was obvious that his omni-tool would be more useful than him.

ME1: Cerberus actually did have an assignment where they turned colonists into husks with dragon's teeth. Look it up.
And, are you really asking what's wrong with dropping hostile rachni on random planets, where they would later pose a very serious threat to other inhabitants?
The reason their experiments go to hell is because they carry them out irresponsibly. Like Arhcer at Overlord, "we can't be expected to account for every possible negative outcome!" Really? Because when you're work threatens of a technological apocalpyse, you ought to at least try to excercise extreme caution.


Again, I'm basically OK with Miranda overall, but the kind of defense she gets for being what she is, is just awful.

[jamesp81]

Golden Owl wrote...

In regards to Miranda...I responded to someone on page one on the subject of Miranda...you may find it interesting....actually I would like to ask you your thoughts on it?

I am looking over it now, I'll get my thoughts posted as I get the opportunity.

Consider this a placeholder for that forthcoming post.

[Antivenger]

I looked to draw Kaidan, I looked in his thread,
As an artist I looked, to draw Kaidan's head,
On Chrome I opened tabs,
All I saw were his abs,
And now past Virmire Kaidan's dead.

Well, no. I didn't actually kill Kaidan because of that, I like his character but he seems more at peace with dying. I'm not kidding about the Kaidan thread, though. Can't look at him the same way anymore. Chest hair.. six pack.. *shudders*

[MisterJB]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
She may have been through a lot, it was but undoubtedly less than Jack.
[/quote]
Since you are so privy to what happened in Miranda's childhood, please do share. We, Miranda, fans have been dying to know.
First question, what were the things her father demanded of her, one after another?
Second question, How were her biotics developed? Are we talking Kaidan style or Jack style?






[quote]cruel.[/quote]

When was Miranda cruel? She is cold enough to leave the crew to die if saving them poses a risk to the sucess of the mission, but she was never cruel.






[quote]and arrogant[/quote]

Wrong, arrogance obligatory includes pride. However, one of the key aspects of Miranda is that she is incapable of feeling pride over her skills or accomplishments because they were only possible due to the genetic engineering that her father paid for.
When Miranda claims that she is the perfect woman, that is not arrongance. It's stating facts, she was designed to be that way.
There is one moment of arrogance from her, I admit it, when she says "I'm never wrong, Jacob." However, not much later on the Normandy, she admits that she is capable of making mistakes and is, in fact, not perfect.





[quote]Jack: we don't know the details of who started the catfight, you can't say that she barged into her office, for one.[/quote]

It happened on her office didn't it? Jack had been hostile to Miranda up to that point and clearly went it there looking for a figth. Just like if I walk to a Christian and start insulting Jesus, I don't expect him to react in a friendly manner.
I can't claim that I know exactly what happened before Shepard showed. Just making a safe assumption.







[quote]For two, Miranda is more than 10 years older than Jack, so you'd expect she'd "know better" than to get into a petty fight just because Jack hates Cerberus.[/quote]
True but Jack questioned her beliefs (despite proof in contrary), threatened her life and started throwying chairs in her office. That usually makes people lose their temper.






[quote]She's second-in-command, and she's making trouble with other squadmates? Some leader she is. [/quote]
Miranda has shown to always be polite and civil on debriefings and on the field, even to a Shepard who sided with Jack. There's no reason to believe she acts any differently to the other crew members.
Jack was the one who started a figth with her. Miranda defended herself.






[quote]The game is not that complex, [/quote]

Or maybe you're not that complex. Just because you view the Mass Effect world and its character in a simplistic manner, that doesn't mean everyone else should too.
For example, I have also contemplated the tought that the logs on Pragia were fake and were planted there by Cerberus in order to calm Jack somewhat.
Evidence in favor of this is how easily Jack gains acess to Cerberus's databanks, even if Shepard refused to give it to her.
Evidence against this is the presence of the Blood Pack in there.

[quote]She never voiced concerns that Shepard would go ballistic on them,
[/quote]
It's called logic. Shepard had destroyed several Cerberus bases in the past, logic dictates that he would probrably not be too happy about waking up in one. Having a means of controlling him is a good idea. If I can reach this conclusion, Miranda can too.






[quote]just that he was a threat for what they "stood for" and so obviously, she didn't want Shepard's ethics to interfere with Cerberus's own goals.[/quote]
And in the end, it was her own ethics that interfered with Cerberus's goals. Evidence that what she stands for and what Cerberus does are two different things.
Or at the very least that she doesn't agree with their methods.






[quote]That's it. It was no security measure, it was Miranda not having respect for Shepard's choices.[/quote]
It was both actually. Miranda tougth Shepard would screw up, she admits this after he gains her respect.
So, Miranda wanted a way of making sure that Shepard wouldn't betray Cerberus and that he wouldn't make stupid choices that could compromise the mission.

[quote]if she really thought the quarian had any more valuable info, she's an idiot.
[/quote]
We're at war. We can't take risks or make assumption during war when there are ways of being sure.
Veetor migth or migth not have more information. Even Jacob argues in favor of giving him to Cerberus.
edit: Saphra said it a lot better than I.






[quote]ME1: Cerberus actually did have an assignment where they turned colonists into husks with dragon's teeth. Look it up.[/quote]
Is there proof that Cerberus did on purpose? And, even if they did, Miranda was against experimenting on Rachi when they realized they were sentient. Obviously, she would be very much against turning humans into Husks. So, she was not aware of what Cerberus did.






[quote]And, are you really asking what's wrong with dropping hostile rachni on random planets, where they would later pose a very serious threat to other inhabitants?[/quote]
No, I'm just saying that if Miranda is against experimenting on Rachni as soon as they realized they were sentient, logic dictates she would also be against dropping said sentient beings on random planets. Obviously, she was not aware Cerberus did so or she would not defend them.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 juin 2011 - 01:42 .

[Labrev]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
She may have been through a lot, it was but undoubtedly less than Jack.
[/quote]
Since you are so privy to what happened in Miranda's childhood, please do share. We, Miranda, fans have been dying to know.
First question, what were the things her father demanded of her, one after another?
Second question, How were her biotics developed? Are we talking Kaidan style or Jack style?[/quote]

I'm not claiming to know for a fact or any details of her life. I could be wrong. But I'd make a pretty strong wager that it was not as bad as being held in a cell her whole life, tortured, trained to be a psycho killer/super-biotic. Or something for which her brain is rotting as a result.

If nothing else, Mianda had some form parental guidance and was well-educated, had food to eat and a roof over her head. She may not have been happy, but there are lots of children who go through much worse than that.

Jack and Kaidan are a couple of bad cases, but not all cases of biotic development are bad.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]cruel.[/quote]

When was Miranda cruel? She is cold enough to leave the crew to die if saving them poses a risk to the sucess of the mission, but she was never cruel.[/quote]

OK, just a few off the top of my head:
-- She'd rather take a wounded quarian for interrogation than letting him get treated.
-- Her condescending nature to other squadmates (insulting Jack, Tali).
-- She wanted to subject Shepard to indoctrination of her liking just to make sure he wouldn't threaten Cerberus's values.

Of course, one can always dispute "well I wouldn't call that cruel, necessarily, because there were reasons for it" but I think it's a pretty fair conclusion to draw from her actions.



[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]and arrogant[/quote]

Wrong, arrogance obligatory includes pride. However, one of the key aspects of Miranda is that she is incapable of feeling pride over her skills or accomplishments because they were only possible due to the genetic engineering that her father paid for.
When Miranda claims that she is the perfect woman, that is not arrongance. It's stating facts, she was designed to be that way.[/quote]

This is false. She may privately harbor some doubts and lack self-esteem, but pubically she certainly isn't the same way. She walks around in spandex to show-off her body. She immediately volunteers herself to 1st fire-team leader in the suicide mission because she thinks that highly of her own abilities. Justified, of course, she can lead the team without casualties. But nonetheless, it takes a good deal of c*ckiness to be that confident.



[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]Jack: we don't know the details of who started the catfight, you can't say that she barged into her office, for one.[/quote]

It happened on her office didn't it? Jack had been hostile to Miranda up to that point and clearly went it there looking for a figth. Just like if I walk to a Christian and start insulting Jesus, I don't expect him to react in a friendly manner.
I can't claim that I know exactly what happened before Shepard showed. Just making a safe assumption.[/quote]

We don't know the story. Maybe Miranda was finishing a mission-report and she needed Jack in her office for whatever reason. It's just an example, the point being that we don't know what happened. And even if she did.....


[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]For two, Miranda is more than 10 years older than Jack, so you'd expect she'd "know better" than to get into a petty fight just because Jack hates Cerberus.[/quote]
True but Jack questioned her beliefs (despite proof in contrary), threatened her life and started throwying chairs in her office. That usually makes people lose their temper.[/quote]

It takes two to tango. For someone who views Jack as childish and immature, what does it say about her own maturity when she can't handle Jack's dislike of Cerberus? Is she really not capable of shrugging it off and saying "whatever, you don't have to love us, just do your job." I don't think Jack was throwing chairs around the room and making threats unprovoked.

Besides, we've seen how Miranda gets her panties in a bunch at the slightest criticism of Cerberus.

Shepard on Mordin LM: Things like this make Cerberus seem like a good idea.
Captain save-a-ho: I'll be adding this to the report!!!

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]She's second-in-command, and she's making trouble with other squadmates? Some leader she is. [/quote]
Miranda has shown to always be polite and civil on debriefings and on the field, even to a Shepard who sided with Jack. There's no reason to believe she acts any differently to the other crew members.
Jack was the one who started a figth with her. Miranda defended herself.[/quote]

Yeah well great, they didn't make cutscenes for a bitter Miranda acting differently. We saw what Miranda really thinks of Shepard back on the second Cerberus facility. She may gain some respect/trust for him later, but she didn't give him much of a chance in the beginning.

Reason to believe she acts differently with crew? She's objected to by one of Jack or Garrus when nominating herself for 1st Fire Team leader. If those two are both dead, Jacob retorts by telling her the crew doesn't like her. I wonder how she got that rap?

Again, we don't know who started the fight. For all we know, it was Miranda who started it. That fact is irrelevant though, both were in the wrong and like I said, takes two to tango.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]The game is not that complex, [/quote]

Or maybe you're not that complex. Just because you view the Mass Effect world and its character in a simplistic manner, that doesn't mean everyone else should too.
For example, I have also contemplated the tought that the logs on Pragia were fake and were planted there by Cerberus in order to calm Jack somewhat.
Evidence in favor of this is how easily Jack gains acess to Cerberus's databanks, even if Shepard refused to give it to her.
Evidence against this is the presence of the Blood Pack in there.[/quote]

Don't question my ability to reason. The motive is flat-out obvious: the writers want to show what a die-hard Cerberus loyalist Miranda is. So they show this through a major character-development moment by having her tell Shepard that she wanted to subject him to mind-control so she could override decisions of his that she didn't like.

Anything more than that is just trying to make an excuse for her.

If you have any doubts about my capacity to think in complexities, I'll tell you my own theory on Pragia.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]She never voiced concerns that Shepard would go ballistic on them,
[/quote]
It's called logic. Shepard had destroyed several Cerberus bases in the past, logic dictates that he would probrably not be too happy about waking up in one. Having a means of controlling him is a good idea. If I can reach this conclusion, Miranda can too.[/quote]

The flaw in this logic is that Miranda makes no mention of Shepard as a security threat to Cerberus. At all, at any point in the game. It is drawn out of basically nowhere, other than some vague reasoning of his past history with them. Why didn't TIM share those concerns then? Why did he even put one of his top agents in harm's way by stationing her on that facility where Shepard might "logically" be a security risk?


[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]just that he was a threat for what they "stood for" and so obviously, she didn't want Shepard's ethics to interfere with Cerberus's own goals.[/quote]
And in the end, it was her own ethics that interfered with Cerberus's goals. Evidence that what she stands for and what Cerberus does are two different things.
Or at the very least that she doesn't agree with their methods.[/quote]

Up to that point, they are not. The base was the exception, not the rule. If you keep it, she says "I never thought I'd question Cerberus, but.." What to say of their methods.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 08 juin 2011 - 02:21 .

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Veetor: if she really thought the quarian had any more valuable info, she's an idiot. He was mentally unstable. Whatever they got out of him was probably all he was going to get.

Hardly. I want to grill him for more details. What happened just before the Collectors showed up? Did he see the ship? What did it look like? How did the Collectors get to the surface? How many did he see? Why wasn't he captured? Did the bugs ignore him or did nothing happen to see him? There are a lot of questions you could ask him. You need to grill him for every tiny detail because you don't what might be important.

They did grill him if you hand him to Cerberus. And found nothing important.

On the contrary, this quarian's injury and mental-instability can have him remember things wrong and give you invalid info. He might even just resort to making up BS facts just so they will let him go. All in all, he's not fit for being taken in and interrogated.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

ME1: Cerberus actually did have an assignment where they turned colonists into husks with dragon's teeth. Look it up.

No they didn't. There was a mission where Exogeni researchers who got turned into husks had sold dragon's teeth to Cerberus. There was no indication Cerberus was resonsible for the events on the colony however.

The rachni Cerberus was planning to release her rachni who couldn't breed (no queen) and they were going to be used to eliminate pirates. Were they irresponsible? Maybe. Binary-Helix didn't fare any better and I seriously hope you didn't set the queen free.

I'll double-check the first thing, but the rachni that had gotten released were not just dumped on pirates. Alliance soldiers had to do the clean-up duty there.

As for my decision regarding the queen, that is another argument for another time. I'd love to take you up on it if you'd like, this is not the place though.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 08 juin 2011 - 02:24 .

[Golden Owl]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]Golden Owl wrote...
I do see her as cold/calculating, but for the fact that she too often seems more than happy to leave others behind: the Cerberus Station, crew on Collector Base [/quote]
[quote]Miranda is cold, yes. However, I do not believe she is calculating. She is practical and rational.
Yes, she is willing to leave people behind if that means success. But this is because she is not willing to take unnecessary risks (and in these cases the consequence is the extinction of the Human race) and she does not do it happily. If you talk to her on Lazarus Station 2, she'll express anger for all the people who lost their lives to bring Shepard back. She also claims that she is glad to find the crew alive in the Collector ship.[/quote]

On the Lazarus Station 2, she is pretty harsh towards Shep on that one...though he didn't get any say in being resurrected and wanted to look for survivors....you could still hear people screaming up until the last conversation on the first station.

A little quick thought on the Collector Base came up with a resolution (sending drew back with one squaddie), yes, they couldn't turn back at that point, but Miranda was fast to jumb the gun for leaving the crew behind and lost once they were found.


[quote]Her dialog with Jack, [/quote]
[quote]Let's be honest, Jack never even tried to be friendly to Miranda and she was the one who barged in her office.
If you take Miranda to Pragia, you'll see that she does not approve of what happened there and, if you ask her about it afterwards, politely BTW, Miranda will admit that Cerberus was not entirely guilt free of what happened to Jack and that it was a mistake.
Miranda lost her temper but it was, at least partially, Jack's fault.[/quote]

My Shep has been nothing but polite to Miranda, dislike of someone is never an excuse for rudeness.

As for Jack, what needs to be remembered is what Jack has endured, yes, Jack busting into Miranda's office was a bad call on Jack's behalf, but for Miranda to call Jack a mistake..."but clearly you were a mistake"....is my issue with that scene...not Miranda defending herself from an attack, but that comment was inexcusable and down right cruel and un-necessary.


[quote]the control chip [/quote]
[quote]Before working with Shepard, Miranda did not believe that he was capable of doing what Cerberus expected him to do. Cerberus, a group she filmy believed on, was spending billions of credits and placing the fate of the entire Human race in the hands of just one man. A man who also happened to have destroyed several of Cerberus's bases before.
So, the control chip was a way of making sure that Shepard would not commit mistakes that could compromise the entire mission and even a way of controlling him in case he turned out to be violent towards Cerberus, kind of like an "escape hatchet".
Is it ethical? No, but I think it's at least justifiable.[/quote]

Justifiable...how so? To be prepared to enforce control over another?...No...Plus, Miranda and Cerberus know Shep already has a priority agenda to stop the Reaper invasion if they bought him back exactly as he was, if he wasn't the exact same wo/man, the experiment would have failed anyway, thus making bringing Shep back fruitless....he will not jepordise the Reaper threat over pettiness.




[quote],Veetor[/quote]
[quote]Yes, Miranda can be cold. However, we should remind ourselves that humans were disappearing every day and Veetor could have had important information. Drastic times call for drastic measures.
And even so, Veetor was not tortured. He was just always fragile.[/quote]

All they needed was the omni-tool and Shep had enough history with Tali to ensure that the omni tool and it's findings would be forwarded....They did not need Veetor, only the omni tool. Miranda was not thinking things through, just jumbing the gun again at the expense of another...a display of the inability to empathize.

[quote]defense of ME1 experiments.[/quote]

[quote]What's wrong with them?
Husks and Creepers were already dead so, as long as Cerberus was not purposely turning humans into such, there are no reasons why they shouldn't try to control them. Many lives could be saved that way.
As for the Rachni, they tought they were animal so taming them would be no different than riding horses to war. If they did stop the experiments when they realized they were sentient, what's wrong with it?[/quote]

No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?...Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments. Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus, Exo-Geni is directly responisble for the Thorian experiments on the Zhus Hope populace, taking live victims and having them turned into Thorian Creepers.


[quote]her life maybe a blessed bed of roses in comparison to Jacks,[/quote]

[quote]I think it's unfair to claim that Miranda had it easier than Jack before we know exactly what happened under Mr. Lawson's roof. For example, how did Miranda gain her biotics? Humanity only discovered Element Zero a year or so after she was born. We at the Miranda fan thread have speculated that it was through the Krogan process, directly implanting Eezo nodules onto her nervous system.
And of course, we don't know what methods Mr. Lawson used to develop her biotics.[/quote]

For the record, if you choose to post a comment I have made, please do so in it's entirety, it looses its full meaning when broken up.

Miranda was not a stolen child/baby prisoner forced to kill or be killed....enduring deliberate unspeakable pain as pain may break the threshold to gain a better biotic....Jack was clearly an unspeakably abused child....I think it can be taken that if Miranda went through such horrors, she would have bought it up, she was happy to discuss every other element in regards to her father.

..............[quote]she has become her father, in as much as she also has come to see others as merely tools to be used
[/quote]
Live I've said above, it's true that Miranda puts the success of the mission above the well being of the individual.
However, she has shown concern for the people who work with her so, she doesn't see them as tools.

[quote]though it still does not negate the fact that she has been responsible for (or attempted to be) and supported others who have been responsible for direct mistreatment of or heinous crimes against others.
[/quote]...................
[quote]What heinous crimes has Miranda supported?
She is against Pragia, does not approve of enslaving sentient beings (the Rachni), is against using the Collector Base...
Do you mean Veetor? I agree it was mistreatment but humans were disappearing. Cerberus was not gentle with him but they didn’t torture him so, it’s not a heinous crime.[/quote]

I have stated my reasons above.

[quote]There is another important thing to mention, I think. Miranda has an idealistic, even naïve, viewpoint regarding Cerberus. She thinks they are a lot better than they really are. An example of this is on the Collector Cruiser, where Miranda is appalled by the idea that The Illusive Man might betray his own people, which proves again that Miranda does not see people as tools.
As she herself states, Miranda believes in the advancement and preservation of humanity. But at the end of the game, The Illusive Man admits that Cerberus is about domination.
Now, you might claim that Miranda had to know better. However, think about it. Cerberus works through Cells, the only sources Miranda could receive information from regarding the other cells ‘s work would either be from TIM, who would filter it, or Alliance reports, which she would find unreliable.
[/quote]

Though Miranda is also fully aware that Cerberus contains a large number of Xenophobes, this she states directly to Shep, plus she seems to have no trouble realizing that Cerberus has run some pretty sick experiments, given her intial defense when Shep questions her about the monsters and Jack, it is obvious she does have prior knowledge given her dialog.

The CB as I think I stated in my previous post was the straw that broke the camels back with Miranda...was a "this is too much"

I do not wish this thread to end up a flame war in regards to Miranda....Tom (the original Miranda poster) was polite and put forward his argument with clearness and politeness, as I responded to him...If you wish to debate Miranda with me, take a leaf out of Toms book please, use my whole debate, not just what you wish and taking it out of context.[/quote]

Modifié par Golden Owl, 08 juin 2011 - 05:06 .

[Golden Owl]

Hellbound555 wrote...

I tried to like Ashley, but her fan-thread made me hate her.

Yes, I tend to mostly avoid fan based threads for that very reason...the odd comment made, but never directly involving myself.

[Golden Owl]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

ME1: Cerberus actually did have an assignment where they turned colonists into husks with dragon's teeth. Look it up.

No they didn't. There was a mission where Exogeni researchers who got turned into husks had sold dragon's teeth to Cerberus. There was no indication Cerberus was resonsible for the events on the colony however.

The rachni Cerberus was planning to release her rachni who couldn't breed (no queen) and they were going to be used to eliminate pirates. Were they irresponsible? Maybe. Binary-Helix didn't fare any better and I seriously hope you didn't set the queen free.

I'll double-check the first thing, but the rachni that had gotten released were not just dumped on pirates. Alliance soldiers had to do the clean-up duty there.

Double Checked: 

No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?...Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments. Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus, Exo-Geni is directly responisble for the Thorian experiments on the Zhus Hope populace, taking live victims and having them turned into Thorian Creepers.

[Ultai]

Overtime, my renegade bar has steadily risen, to the point it's neck and neck with paragon and both bars full.  Being grey is what I enjoy, it's why I like the Illusive Man and a few other characters of that sort, even if I don't necessarily agree with the way they go about to achieve goals.  You could say I have a moment of emotional anger and release David, but can see the logical reasoning of learning about potential weaknesses in Reaper design with the collector base.

I realized that fear of not having loyalty was influencing some decisions, so I threw caution to the wind and finally did things how I really wanted them to turn out.  Most notably handing over the evidence in Tali's mission.  In the end she still survived, I was glad.  

I went alittle off topic, but my point is that being this way I have a hard time hating then loving, or loving then hating characters.  I just find them all interesting, well I TRY to find the Asari interesting .  I try to put myself in their shoes too much I guess.

Modifié par Ultai, 08 juin 2011 - 05:02 .

[Golden Owl]

Ultai wrote...

Overtime, my renegade bar has steadily risen, to the point it's neck and neck with paragon and both bars full.  Being grey is what I enjoy, it's why I like the Illusive Man and a few other characters of that sort, even if I don't necessarily agree with the way they go about to achieve goals.  You could say I have a moment of emotional anger and release David, but can see the logical reasoning of learning about potential weaknesses in Reaper design with the collector base.

I realized that fear of not having loyalty was influencing some decisions, so I threw caution to the wind and finally did things how I really wanted them to turn out.  Most notably handing over the evidence in Tali's mission.  In the end she still survived, I was glad.  

I went alittle off topic, but my point is that being this way I have a hard time hating then loving, or loving then hating characters.  I just find them all interesting, well I TRY to find the Asari interesting .  I try to put myself in their shoes too much I guess.

I have trouble understanding hating a character...I dislike some characters...but 'hate'? thats pretty intense....I really hadn't wanted this thread to turn into a "I don't like such and such because...." and hope I can eventually think of some way to swing it back on track...but right now it's off the rails....read original post.

[Ultai]

Well, Aria went from alright, to wishing Shep would eyeroll when she delivered her I am Omega line.