Ultai wrote...
Well, Aria went from alright, to wishing Shep would eyeroll when she delivered her I am Omega line.
Thank you Ultai
Changing Perceptions on NPC's
Débuté par
Golden Owl
, juin 02 2011 12:57
#51
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 05:29
Golden Owl
-
- Members
- 4 064 messages
Thank you Ultai
Retour en haut
#52
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 07:17
GuardianAngel470
-
- Members
- 4 922 messages
I really like Aria actually. I don't even know what line you're talking about.
Maybe that's because I spam the skip button furiously when I first meet her, somehow intuitively knowing that something corny and dumb is about to be said without any real, legitimate reason for this feeling. I can't imagine why.
On a more serious note, I want to expand on my previous post in this thread, specifically in regards to my opinions of characters.
Jack to me, as I said, was on my black list. I really didn't like her when I first met her. The cursing, the snide comments to Miranda, and of course the clothing. In my first playthrough Jack died and to tell the truth, I really didn't care.
But then my first playthrough of any game is usually my least thorough. Usually when I play a new game I want to finish it as quickly as possible. I stay up all night in some cases just sitting in my room playing a game. Then, after I know the basic story, I delve deeper and explore characters, tactical approaches, and sidequests.
So on subsequent playthroughs I talked to Jack more. At first the implications of some of the things she said just sailed right past me but when I started listening to her stories, I almost instantly changed my mind about her.
Her story about the outlaw colony that she avenged by destroying that space station showed me that she was more than what I initially thought. The calous, cruel, vulgar person I thought she was was in fact the facade hiding the true person. There was honor there, more than it appeared there was.
Miranda on the other hand lost my respect, but in the interest of avoiding a negative rant I'll just leave it at that.
Other than those two characters, and possibly Tali, I didn't really change my stance on anyone. Characters I was initially apathetic towards because I didn't talk to them became loved but again, not because of the forums.
Maybe that's because I spam the skip button furiously when I first meet her, somehow intuitively knowing that something corny and dumb is about to be said without any real, legitimate reason for this feeling. I can't imagine why.
On a more serious note, I want to expand on my previous post in this thread, specifically in regards to my opinions of characters.
Jack to me, as I said, was on my black list. I really didn't like her when I first met her. The cursing, the snide comments to Miranda, and of course the clothing. In my first playthrough Jack died and to tell the truth, I really didn't care.
But then my first playthrough of any game is usually my least thorough. Usually when I play a new game I want to finish it as quickly as possible. I stay up all night in some cases just sitting in my room playing a game. Then, after I know the basic story, I delve deeper and explore characters, tactical approaches, and sidequests.
So on subsequent playthroughs I talked to Jack more. At first the implications of some of the things she said just sailed right past me but when I started listening to her stories, I almost instantly changed my mind about her.
Her story about the outlaw colony that she avenged by destroying that space station showed me that she was more than what I initially thought. The calous, cruel, vulgar person I thought she was was in fact the facade hiding the true person. There was honor there, more than it appeared there was.
Miranda on the other hand lost my respect, but in the interest of avoiding a negative rant I'll just leave it at that.
Other than those two characters, and possibly Tali, I didn't really change my stance on anyone. Characters I was initially apathetic towards because I didn't talk to them became loved but again, not because of the forums.
Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 08 juin 2011 - 07:17 .
#53
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 07:43
V-rex
-
- Members
- 1 432 messages
If I were ever going to start hating characters for their fanbases I'd probably hate every single character in Mass Effect and demand they all die.
There are aggressive loyalist fans in every section of fanbases guys, they bitterly snipe at each other all the time. They do not have any bearing on the actual character themselves, any more then that because jerks liked such and such movie, such and such movie must be BAD.
Point is, don't go blaming characters for overreactions from fanbases.
That statement was made to karmatically balance out the following one:
"SCREW ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT ASHLEY IS RACIST!!! I WILL KILL YOU, AND YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS, AND YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD, CITY, COUNTRY, CONTINENT AND PLANET!! BURN IN THE FIRE OF MY VENGEANCE!!"
Anyway in terms of perspective changing, hereare a few of my examples:
Grunt: When I first heard about him, I was pissed off because Wrex was the team krogan and I didn't want a new one. I used him from time to time but never really connected, but then something just started and I grew to really like him as a result. Now he actually stands as one of my favorites and a figure of him sits on my shelf, so go figure.
Jack: Didn't think I'd like her, but after seeing her romance scene and actually being moved by it, I grew to. Unlike Miranda or Tali's romances, Jack's I actually liked the idea of. Call me an old sap but I love the idea of someone who has had a tragic life finding someone who cares for them. After realizing that Jack was the closest I'd ever get to a Mass Effect 2 romance that I'd actually like, and the appeal grew from there.
Nowadays where a lot of people see an evil angry ugly b*tch, I think she's adorable.
Kaidan: For the longest time it was really easy to sacrfice Kaidan on Virmire, because he wasn't Ashley and that was all that mattered. However since then, the VS fanbase became a coalition and subsequently I got to conversation about him a little more. If nothing else I think Kaidan is a perfectly nice and reasonable and even sensitive man, something you certainly don't see very often in game franchises where the standard male is a grizzled marine with scars and who can't smile. So I appreciate him for that much.
Samara: Automatically assumed that, given her watermelon sized blue breasts barely contained by a weighed down constraining red corset pushing them up and looking about ready to spill out into an eternal pillowy blue abyss of massive milk glands.... what was I saying?
Oh right, well I assumed with all that, that Samara was nothing more then shameless T&A for the boys and was quite prepared as a result to just disregard everything she said and solidly ignore her for surely she would suffer from Miranda syndrome and every time I spoke to her the camera would zoom in on her lucious blue bosom of bliss.
But then I actually got to talking to her and I realized that despite her sexed up appearance, she's a very fleshed out character. One of the more interesting if you ask me, and easily one who carries with her an aura of respect. She was certainly tough, diciplined and well characterized. Enough that I was able to look past the obvious sexting up and appreciate her as a character in her own right.
There are aggressive loyalist fans in every section of fanbases guys, they bitterly snipe at each other all the time. They do not have any bearing on the actual character themselves, any more then that because jerks liked such and such movie, such and such movie must be BAD.
Point is, don't go blaming characters for overreactions from fanbases.
That statement was made to karmatically balance out the following one:
"SCREW ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT ASHLEY IS RACIST!!! I WILL KILL YOU, AND YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS, AND YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD, CITY, COUNTRY, CONTINENT AND PLANET!! BURN IN THE FIRE OF MY VENGEANCE!!"
Anyway in terms of perspective changing, hereare a few of my examples:
Grunt: When I first heard about him, I was pissed off because Wrex was the team krogan and I didn't want a new one. I used him from time to time but never really connected, but then something just started and I grew to really like him as a result. Now he actually stands as one of my favorites and a figure of him sits on my shelf, so go figure.
Jack: Didn't think I'd like her, but after seeing her romance scene and actually being moved by it, I grew to. Unlike Miranda or Tali's romances, Jack's I actually liked the idea of. Call me an old sap but I love the idea of someone who has had a tragic life finding someone who cares for them. After realizing that Jack was the closest I'd ever get to a Mass Effect 2 romance that I'd actually like, and the appeal grew from there.
Nowadays where a lot of people see an evil angry ugly b*tch, I think she's adorable.
Kaidan: For the longest time it was really easy to sacrfice Kaidan on Virmire, because he wasn't Ashley and that was all that mattered. However since then, the VS fanbase became a coalition and subsequently I got to conversation about him a little more. If nothing else I think Kaidan is a perfectly nice and reasonable and even sensitive man, something you certainly don't see very often in game franchises where the standard male is a grizzled marine with scars and who can't smile. So I appreciate him for that much.
Samara: Automatically assumed that, given her watermelon sized blue breasts barely contained by a weighed down constraining red corset pushing them up and looking about ready to spill out into an eternal pillowy blue abyss of massive milk glands.... what was I saying?
Oh right, well I assumed with all that, that Samara was nothing more then shameless T&A for the boys and was quite prepared as a result to just disregard everything she said and solidly ignore her for surely she would suffer from Miranda syndrome and every time I spoke to her the camera would zoom in on her lucious blue bosom of bliss.
But then I actually got to talking to her and I realized that despite her sexed up appearance, she's a very fleshed out character. One of the more interesting if you ask me, and easily one who carries with her an aura of respect. She was certainly tough, diciplined and well characterized. Enough that I was able to look past the obvious sexting up and appreciate her as a character in her own right.
Modifié par V-rex, 08 juin 2011 - 07:47 .
#54
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 12:15
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
-
- Guests
Aria is one of those characters I rather dislike as a person but I appreciate as a part of the game-world. She is someone I really want to send my Shepard up against.
#55
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 12:54
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 585 messages
[quote]Golden Owl wrote...
On the Lazarus Station 2, she is pretty harsh towards Shep on that one...though he didn't get any say in being resurrected and wanted to look for survivors....you could still hear people screaming up until the last conversation on the first station.
[/quote]
She is harsh to Shepard because she saw Cerberus spend billions of credits on him and place the fate of the Human race on his hands.
She doesn't trust, like or expect Shepard to succeed on this mission. Eventually she does, all three of them. Isn't that what's important?
[quote]A little quick thought on the Collector Base came up with a resolution (sending drew back with one squaddie), yes, they couldn't turn back at that point, but Miranda was fast to jumb the gun for leaving the crew behind and lost once they were found.[/quote]
it's true and I understand why people might not like that about her. I always send a squadmate with them myself but, personally, I think it shows that Miranda is willing to make hard choices and I respect her for it.
I see that Garrus is your favorite character. He is my second favorite, right after Miranda, so please don't think that I am trying to insult him.
Garrus was willing to sacrifice a ship full of hostages just to catch one man. Miranda is willing to sacrifice the crew of the Normandy to stop the Collectors. The stakes are much higher in Miranda's case although it's also true that there was no other solution in Garrus's case, it was either sacrifice the hostage or let Heart go.
[quote]My Shep has been nothing but polite to Miranda, dislike of someone is never an excuse for rudeness.
[/quote]
No, but we should also remember that Miranda was probably really angry with herself at that point due to not predicting Wilson's betrayal which lead to Shepard waking up ahead of time and the loss of those working under. Add to that the fact that her upbringing created in her a very detached personality and that Shepard was asking personal questions and you have the ****y Miranda you meet on Lazarus Station 2.
From that point onwards, Miranda is always civil and polite when talking to Shepard and will even aplogize for her
preconceptions.
Can't you forgive her?
[quote]As for Jack, what needs to be remembered is what Jack has endured, yes, Jack busting into Miranda's office was a bad call on Jack's behalf, but for Miranda to call Jack a mistake..."but clearly you were a mistake"....is my issue with that scene...not Miranda defending herself from an attack, but that comment was inexcusable and down right cruel and un-necessary.[/quote]
I agree, I was suprised by what Miranda said and it was unnecessarily cruel. It proves that Miranda is human like the rest of us and capable of losing her temper.
They both were wrong in there, Jack wasn't able to admit Cerberus doesn't torture children for kicks and Miranda lost her temper.
[quote]Justifiable...how so? To be prepared to enforce control over another?...No...Plus, Miranda and Cerberus know Shep already has a priority agenda to stop the Reaper invasion if they bought him back exactly as he was, if he wasn't the exact same wo/man, the experiment would have failed anyway, thus making bringing Shep back fruitless....he will not jepordise the Reaper threat over pettiness.[/quote]
I think it's justifiable. If I had to bring Saren back to life to stop the Reapers, I would try to have a way of making sure he wouldn't betray me.
Besides, there are at least some cases in the game where you can act against Cerberus's best interests. Giving that data to the Alliance, for example.
And it's also possible that Miranda feared that Shepard would make mistakes that would jeopardize the mission and wanted to make sure she could prevent them.
[quote]All they needed was the omni-tool and Shep had enough history with Tali to ensure that the omni tool and it's findings would be forwarded....They did not need Veetor, only the omni tool. Miranda was not thinking things through, just jumbing the gun again at the expense of another...a display of the inability to empathize.[/quote]
There are many other questions that could have been asked to Veetor, Saphra mentioned them a few posts ago.
Cerberus and the Quarians don't have a good history and we don't know how the Quarians politics work. Tali's superiors could have objected against sending the data to Cerberus and what then? Would Tali have done it anyway? There was no way of knowying.
Miranda can empathize if that doesn't risk the mission, she is all in favor of helping those Salarians on Nassana's tower, for example. We're at war, we can't take risks or make assumptions if there are ways of being sure (taking Veetor).
Even Jacob defends taking him.
[quote]No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus, Exo-Geni is directly responisble for the Thorian experiments on the Zhus Hope populace, taking live victims and having them turned into Thorian Creepers. [/quote]
Even if Cerberus did those things (is there proof?), Miranda was against experimenting on Rachni as soon as they were discovered to be sentient. Obviously, she would be against forcing said sentient beings to fight for us and even more so against turning humans into Husks or Creepers.
Miranda proved herself capable of admitting when Cerberus commits mistakes (Pragia) so she must not have known that Cerberus had gone behind her back and done those things, if they did.
[quote]Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments.[/quote]
Miranda did not express herself regarding Toombs and Kahoku. I can only say that Miranda's number 1 concern (besides Oriana) has always been the protection of mankind and conjecture that she would not have approved of those experiments.
I could see her approving of killing Kahoku is he became dangerous but not of experimenting on him.
[quote]For the record, if you choose to post a comment I have made, please do so in it's entirety, it looses its full meaning when broken up. [/quote]
I admit that I did not think so. If it offended you, I apologize.
[quote]Miranda was not a stolen child/baby prisoner[/quote]
She was prisioner, yes. So much that she had to run away.
It is true that she was not stolen. However, she was being abused by her own father, someone who was supposed to protect her. One could claim that this would be even more traumatic.
[quote]forced to kill or be killed[/quote]
We don't know that. What if her father, in an attempt to develop her biotic and physical power, forced her into such a situation? You think that's out-of-character for him?
[quote]enduring deliberate unspeakable pain as pain may break the threshold to gain a better biotic[/quote]
Again, we don't know. What we do know is that her father financed Cerberus heavily. Is it so unreasonable to think that Cerberus migth have shared a few tricks with him?
[quote]Jack was clearly an unspeakably abused child[/quote]
Without a doubt.
[quote]I think it can be taken that if Miranda went through such horrors, she would have bought it up, she was happy to discuss every other element in regards to her father.[/quote]
We don't even know the man's name. Miranda withold Oriana's age from Shepard until it was actually relevant, she didn't tell Niket, her friend who helped her escape, that she had returned to resuce her sister.
Miranda doesn't talk about her personal life unless she absolutely has to. Since Shepard agreed to help her without elaborating too much, she probrably didn't feel the need to share anything else.
[quote]Though Miranda is also fully aware that Cerberus contains a large number of Xenophobes, this she states directly to Shep, plus she seems to have no trouble realizing that Cerberus has run some pretty sick experiments, given her intial defense when Shep questions her about the monsters and Jack, it is obvious she does have prior knowledge given her dialog.[/quote]
Miranda also expresses dissapointment over so many joining Cerberus out of Xenophobia.
As for the experiments, many would consider the Lazarus Project as "playing God" or would be against simply using the corpses of the dead (Husks and Creepers) as Shock Troopers. That doesn't necessarely mean she aproves of turning humans into monsters.
There are two ways she could have learned about those experiments
A)She was involved/ in charge of them but was unaware that her test subjects had been purposely turned into such by Cerberus. Hence, she tougth they were "already dead".
She admits she spent two years learning everything there is to know about Shepard. She could have requested more info regarding those operations and TIM filtered it.
As for Jack, we do know that Cerberus ordered the shutdown of that place when they realized the extent of the experiments. It's possible that TIM sent a report to Miranda notifying her of this.
Even so, Miranda admits that what happened there was wrong.
[quote]I do not wish this thread to end up a flame war in regards to Miranda....Tom (the original Miranda poster) was polite and put forward his argument with clearness and politeness, as I responded to him...If you wish to debate Miranda with me, take a leaf out of Toms book please, use my whole debate, not just what you wish and taking it out of context.[/quote]
If I took anything our of context, then I apologize. I can assure you it was not my intention.
On the Lazarus Station 2, she is pretty harsh towards Shep on that one...though he didn't get any say in being resurrected and wanted to look for survivors....you could still hear people screaming up until the last conversation on the first station.
[/quote]
She is harsh to Shepard because she saw Cerberus spend billions of credits on him and place the fate of the Human race on his hands.
She doesn't trust, like or expect Shepard to succeed on this mission. Eventually she does, all three of them. Isn't that what's important?
[quote]A little quick thought on the Collector Base came up with a resolution (sending drew back with one squaddie), yes, they couldn't turn back at that point, but Miranda was fast to jumb the gun for leaving the crew behind and lost once they were found.[/quote]
it's true and I understand why people might not like that about her. I always send a squadmate with them myself but, personally, I think it shows that Miranda is willing to make hard choices and I respect her for it.
I see that Garrus is your favorite character. He is my second favorite, right after Miranda, so please don't think that I am trying to insult him.
Garrus was willing to sacrifice a ship full of hostages just to catch one man. Miranda is willing to sacrifice the crew of the Normandy to stop the Collectors. The stakes are much higher in Miranda's case although it's also true that there was no other solution in Garrus's case, it was either sacrifice the hostage or let Heart go.
[quote]My Shep has been nothing but polite to Miranda, dislike of someone is never an excuse for rudeness.
[/quote]
No, but we should also remember that Miranda was probably really angry with herself at that point due to not predicting Wilson's betrayal which lead to Shepard waking up ahead of time and the loss of those working under. Add to that the fact that her upbringing created in her a very detached personality and that Shepard was asking personal questions and you have the ****y Miranda you meet on Lazarus Station 2.
From that point onwards, Miranda is always civil and polite when talking to Shepard and will even aplogize for her
preconceptions.
Can't you forgive her?
[quote]As for Jack, what needs to be remembered is what Jack has endured, yes, Jack busting into Miranda's office was a bad call on Jack's behalf, but for Miranda to call Jack a mistake..."but clearly you were a mistake"....is my issue with that scene...not Miranda defending herself from an attack, but that comment was inexcusable and down right cruel and un-necessary.[/quote]
I agree, I was suprised by what Miranda said and it was unnecessarily cruel. It proves that Miranda is human like the rest of us and capable of losing her temper.
They both were wrong in there, Jack wasn't able to admit Cerberus doesn't torture children for kicks and Miranda lost her temper.
[quote]Justifiable...how so? To be prepared to enforce control over another?...No...Plus, Miranda and Cerberus know Shep already has a priority agenda to stop the Reaper invasion if they bought him back exactly as he was, if he wasn't the exact same wo/man, the experiment would have failed anyway, thus making bringing Shep back fruitless....he will not jepordise the Reaper threat over pettiness.[/quote]
I think it's justifiable. If I had to bring Saren back to life to stop the Reapers, I would try to have a way of making sure he wouldn't betray me.
Besides, there are at least some cases in the game where you can act against Cerberus's best interests. Giving that data to the Alliance, for example.
And it's also possible that Miranda feared that Shepard would make mistakes that would jeopardize the mission and wanted to make sure she could prevent them.
[quote]All they needed was the omni-tool and Shep had enough history with Tali to ensure that the omni tool and it's findings would be forwarded....They did not need Veetor, only the omni tool. Miranda was not thinking things through, just jumbing the gun again at the expense of another...a display of the inability to empathize.[/quote]
There are many other questions that could have been asked to Veetor, Saphra mentioned them a few posts ago.
Cerberus and the Quarians don't have a good history and we don't know how the Quarians politics work. Tali's superiors could have objected against sending the data to Cerberus and what then? Would Tali have done it anyway? There was no way of knowying.
Miranda can empathize if that doesn't risk the mission, she is all in favor of helping those Salarians on Nassana's tower, for example. We're at war, we can't take risks or make assumptions if there are ways of being sure (taking Veetor).
Even Jacob defends taking him.
[quote]No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus, Exo-Geni is directly responisble for the Thorian experiments on the Zhus Hope populace, taking live victims and having them turned into Thorian Creepers. [/quote]
Even if Cerberus did those things (is there proof?), Miranda was against experimenting on Rachni as soon as they were discovered to be sentient. Obviously, she would be against forcing said sentient beings to fight for us and even more so against turning humans into Husks or Creepers.
Miranda proved herself capable of admitting when Cerberus commits mistakes (Pragia) so she must not have known that Cerberus had gone behind her back and done those things, if they did.
[quote]Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments.[/quote]
Miranda did not express herself regarding Toombs and Kahoku. I can only say that Miranda's number 1 concern (besides Oriana) has always been the protection of mankind and conjecture that she would not have approved of those experiments.
I could see her approving of killing Kahoku is he became dangerous but not of experimenting on him.
[quote]For the record, if you choose to post a comment I have made, please do so in it's entirety, it looses its full meaning when broken up. [/quote]
I admit that I did not think so. If it offended you, I apologize.
[quote]Miranda was not a stolen child/baby prisoner[/quote]
She was prisioner, yes. So much that she had to run away.
It is true that she was not stolen. However, she was being abused by her own father, someone who was supposed to protect her. One could claim that this would be even more traumatic.
[quote]forced to kill or be killed[/quote]
We don't know that. What if her father, in an attempt to develop her biotic and physical power, forced her into such a situation? You think that's out-of-character for him?
[quote]enduring deliberate unspeakable pain as pain may break the threshold to gain a better biotic[/quote]
Again, we don't know. What we do know is that her father financed Cerberus heavily. Is it so unreasonable to think that Cerberus migth have shared a few tricks with him?
[quote]Jack was clearly an unspeakably abused child[/quote]
Without a doubt.
[quote]I think it can be taken that if Miranda went through such horrors, she would have bought it up, she was happy to discuss every other element in regards to her father.[/quote]
We don't even know the man's name. Miranda withold Oriana's age from Shepard until it was actually relevant, she didn't tell Niket, her friend who helped her escape, that she had returned to resuce her sister.
Miranda doesn't talk about her personal life unless she absolutely has to. Since Shepard agreed to help her without elaborating too much, she probrably didn't feel the need to share anything else.
[quote]Though Miranda is also fully aware that Cerberus contains a large number of Xenophobes, this she states directly to Shep, plus she seems to have no trouble realizing that Cerberus has run some pretty sick experiments, given her intial defense when Shep questions her about the monsters and Jack, it is obvious she does have prior knowledge given her dialog.[/quote]
Miranda also expresses dissapointment over so many joining Cerberus out of Xenophobia.
As for the experiments, many would consider the Lazarus Project as "playing God" or would be against simply using the corpses of the dead (Husks and Creepers) as Shock Troopers. That doesn't necessarely mean she aproves of turning humans into monsters.
There are two ways she could have learned about those experiments
A)She was involved/ in charge of them but was unaware that her test subjects had been purposely turned into such by Cerberus. Hence, she tougth they were "already dead".
She admits she spent two years learning everything there is to know about Shepard. She could have requested more info regarding those operations and TIM filtered it.As for Jack, we do know that Cerberus ordered the shutdown of that place when they realized the extent of the experiments. It's possible that TIM sent a report to Miranda notifying her of this.
Even so, Miranda admits that what happened there was wrong.
[quote]I do not wish this thread to end up a flame war in regards to Miranda....Tom (the original Miranda poster) was polite and put forward his argument with clearness and politeness, as I responded to him...If you wish to debate Miranda with me, take a leaf out of Toms book please, use my whole debate, not just what you wish and taking it out of context.[/quote]
If I took anything our of context, then I apologize. I can assure you it was not my intention.
Modifié par MisterJB, 08 juin 2011 - 01:02 .
#56
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 12:59
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
-
- Guests
Golden Owl wrote...
Double Checked:
No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?
Who cares about a bunch of damn pirates?
In any regard, you don't know what you're talking about. Baffling considering you said you just checked this by hand. I've done this mission a hundred times and I know what happens. On Feros you find a log that states that the crew on Chasca gave "specimens" to Cerberus. When you reach Chasca you find it destroyed by Dragon's teeth. Logically the specimens given to Cerberus were Dragon's Teeth. However there is zero indication that Cerberus had anything to do with the colony's destruction. The pioneer team found Dragon's Teeth, Cerberus was given a few, and then sometime later the colony was indoctrinated by the Dragon's Teeth.
Considering Exo-Geni's more recent actions do you think it is totally impossible they didn't destroy their own colony intentionally? Whatever the case, there is no clear evidence to tell us what happened there. Even Miranda's statement that "the husks were already dead" is very vague. What it could mean is that Cerberus came and collected husks but didn't make any themselves.
Golden Owl wrote...
...Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments.
No, play the mission again. Kahoku was killed by lethal injection and his corpse was used in experiments.
Golden Owl wrote...
Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus...
No it isn't.
#57
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 02:15
Golden Owl
-
- Members
- 4 064 messages
Saphra Deden wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
Double Checked:
No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?
Who cares about a bunch of damn pirates?
In any regard, you don't know what you're talking about. Baffling considering you said you just checked this by hand. I've done this mission a hundred times and I know what happens. On Feros you find a log that states that the crew on Chasca gave "specimens" to Cerberus. When you reach Chasca you find it destroyed by Dragon's teeth. Logically the specimens given to Cerberus were Dragon's Teeth. However there is zero indication that Cerberus had anything to do with the colony's destruction. The pioneer team found Dragon's Teeth, Cerberus was given a few, and then sometime later the colony was indoctrinated by the Dragon's Teeth.
Considering Exo-Geni's more recent actions do you think it is totally impossible they didn't destroy their own colony intentionally? Whatever the case, there is no clear evidence to tell us what happened there. Even Miranda's statement that "the husks were already dead" is very vague. What it could mean is that Cerberus came and collected husks but didn't make any themselves.Golden Owl wrote...
...Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments.
No, play the mission again. Kahoku was killed by lethal injection and his corpse was used in experiments.
Golden Owl wrote...
Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus...
No it isn't.
I am partially through round one on ME, Feros already behind me, Cerberus still ahead...I will write everything down exactly as it is written, word for word as I find them on Cerberus and the Husked colony, etc...And in round two will pick up the exact Feros intel also, word for word, then we shall see.
#58
Posté 08 juin 2011 - 02:24
Golden Owl
-
- Members
- 4 064 messages
Edit....
Modifié par Golden Owl, 09 juin 2011 - 02:17 .
#59
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 02:15
Golden Owl
-
- Members
- 4 064 messages
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]Golden Owl wrote...
On the Lazarus Station 2, she is pretty harsh towards Shep on that one...though he didn't get any say in being resurrected and wanted to look for survivors....you could still hear people screaming up until the last conversation on the first station.
[/quote]
[quote]She is harsh to Shepard because she saw Cerberus spend billions of credits on him and place the fate of the Human race on his hands.
She doesn't trust, like or expect Shepard to succeed on this mission. Eventually she does, all three of them. Isn't that what's important?[/quote]
Though it still comes down to, if they did the job right with Shep and bought him back exactly as he was, same morals, etc...They know he will want to do what needs to be done to stop the Reapers and have the right traits to do so....Miranda's task was to bring him back exactly as he was, it would be much more prudent and doing her job and less child like to be questioning him further, not attacking.
[quote]A little quick thought on the Collector Base came up with a resolution (sending drew back with one squaddie), yes, they couldn't turn back at that point, but Miranda was fast to jumb the gun for leaving the crew behind and lost once they were found.[/quote]
[quote]it's true and I understand why people might not like that about her. I always send a squadmate with them myself but, personally, I think it shows that Miranda is willing to make hard choices and I respect her for it.
I see that Garrus is your favorite character. He is my second favorite, right after Miranda, so please don't think that I am trying to insult him.
Garrus was willing to sacrifice a ship full of hostages just to catch one man. Miranda is willing to sacrifice the crew of the Normandy to stop the Collectors. The stakes are much higher in Miranda's case although it's also true that there was no other solution in Garrus's case, it was either sacrifice the hostage or let Heart go.[/quote]
Though the question being, would she be as willing to sacrifice herself? And it still comes down to, shouldn't sacrificing lives be the last option, not the first?
Yes,I love Garrus, though I am not really over concerned if others do not like him, each to their own....As for Heart, Omega and Sidonis...I think it is how Garrus is protrayed, what makes him tick as such that I find so appealing and why I favor him...He is driven by passion, a hot head and something of a rogue....I don't always agree with him, but I can understand where he is coming from, he is fire, Miranda is ice...Fire is passion, Ice is callous, that is the difference I see, does that make sense?
[quote]My Shep has been nothing but polite to Miranda, dislike of someone is never an excuse for rudeness.
[/quote]
[quote]No, but we should also remember that Miranda was probably really angry with herself at that point due to not predicting Wilson's betrayal which lead to Shepard waking up ahead of time and the loss of those working under. Add to that the fact that her upbringing created in her a very detached personality and that Shepard was asking personal questions and you have the ****y Miranda you meet on Lazarus Station 2.
From that point onwards, Miranda is always civil and polite when talking to Shepard and will even aplogize for her
preconceptions.
Can't you forgive her?[/quote]
I always thought Shep asking Miranda the personal question on the second station was kinda silly, always refrain from activating the personal dialog....is not the time or place.
I stated somewhere else in this thread that Miranda may redeem herself in ME3, if she does so, my Shep will hear her, until then she remains on his 'be wary of' radar....she still remains too cold hearted in ME2...I actually did start to warm to her despite her coldness at one point, as I was re-evaluating NPC's, but then she came out with that attack on Joker and EDI after the crew was abducted and I lost it again with her there....how exactly did she expect Joker to have any control over what happened and what exactly did she expect him to do about it?...She lost me in a big way on that one.
[quote]As for Jack, what needs to be remembered is what Jack has endured, yes, Jack busting into Miranda's office was a bad call on Jack's behalf, but for Miranda to call Jack a mistake..."but clearly you were a mistake"....is my issue with that scene...not Miranda defending herself from an attack, but that comment was inexcusable and down right cruel and un-necessary.[/quote]
[quote]I agree, I was suprised by what Miranda said and it was unnecessarily cruel. It proves that Miranda is human like the rest of us and capable of losing her temper.
They both were wrong in there, Jack wasn't able to admit Cerberus doesn't torture children for kicks and Miranda lost her temper.[/quote]
I guess personally I have very strong rules I adhere to in fights....there are things I will not say to people, never hit below the belt, it's a pointless and cruel excercise. And I guess with Miranda's position I expect more of her...I don't hold lives in my hands, she does...she needs to grow up....I find comments like that inexcusable, especially for people in her position, she needs to be the bigger woman, not petty and cruel.
[quote]Justifiable...how so? To be prepared to enforce control over another?...No...Plus, Miranda and Cerberus know Shep already has a priority agenda to stop the Reaper invasion if they bought him back exactly as he was, if he wasn't the exact same wo/man, the experiment would have failed anyway, thus making bringing Shep back fruitless....he will not jepordise the Reaper threat over pettiness.[/quote]
[quote]I think it's justifiable. If I had to bring Saren back to life to stop the Reapers, I would try to have a way of making sure he wouldn't betray me.
Besides, there are at least some cases in the game where you can act against Cerberus's best interests. Giving that data to the Alliance, for example.
And it's also possible that Miranda feared that Shepard would make mistakes that would jeopardize the mission and wanted to make sure she could prevent them.[/quote]
Saren is a proven liability, his moral standards and cowardice are a known weakness.....Miranda's home work on Shep, shows him to be obviously otherwise.
Giving the Data to the Alliance, I don't think is that big an issue....it states 'if this went public it could seriously hurt Cerberus'...the Alliance is not public and handles things privately, they don't air dirty laundry to the public...Now if Shep chooses to keep it, that can be dangerous, s/he may decide to make it public, eg. Emily Wong....But a point made there MisterJB.
[quote]All they needed was the omni-tool and Shep had enough history with Tali to ensure that the omni tool and it's findings would be forwarded....They did not need Veetor, only the omni tool. Miranda was not thinking things through, just jumbing the gun again at the expense of another...a display of the inability to empathize.[/quote]
[quote]There are many other questions that could have been asked to Veetor, Saphra mentioned them a few posts ago.
Cerberus and the Quarians don't have a good history and we don't know how the Quarians politics work. Tali's superiors could have objected against sending the data to Cerberus and what then? Would Tali have done it anyway? There was no way of knowying.
Miranda can empathize if that doesn't risk the mission, she is all in favor of helping those Salarians on Nassana's tower, for example. We're at war, we can't take risks or make assumptions if there are ways of being sure (taking Veetor).
Even Jacob defends taking him.[/quote]
As was stated by others in later posts also though, a traumatized person does not make a good reference point...If you want solid information from a person, the more relaxed and comfortable they are, the better....much like trying to ask a child what happened when their highly upset and in tears, you will not get a straight answer from them, they need to be calmed and settled first....Interrogating Veetor is a guaranteed pointless task from the get go. Plus a little faith needs to be had in Sheps past relationships with Tali, home work would have supplied enough info to Cerberus to know that Tali would help Shep in any way she can, based on their history....yes, I do believe Tali would have forwarded the info regardless of her superiors, in her mind it would be for Shep, not Cerberus, plus she knows of the imminant Reaper threat, which would make getting Shep the info imperative to her.
[quote]No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus, Exo-Geni is directly responisble for the Thorian experiments on the Zhus Hope populace, taking live victims and having them turned into Thorian Creepers. [/quote]
[quote]Even if Cerberus did those things (is there proof?), Miranda was against experimenting on Rachni as soon as they were discovered to be sentient. Obviously, she would be against forcing said sentient beings to fight for us and even more so against turning humans into Husks or Creepers.
Miranda proved herself capable of admitting when Cerberus commits mistakes (Pragia) so she must not have known that Cerberus had gone behind her back and done those things, if they did.[/quote]
Proof will be posted in the next couple of days
[quote]Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments.[/quote]
[quote]Miranda did not express herself regarding Toombs and Kahoku. I can only say that Miranda's number 1 concern (besides Oriana) has always been the protection of mankind and conjecture that she would not have approved of those experiments.
I could see her approving of killing Kahoku is he became dangerous but not of experimenting on him.[/quote]
[quote]For the record, if you choose to post a comment I have made, please do so in it's entirety, it looses its full meaning when broken up. [/quote]
[quote]I admit that I did not think so. If it offended you, I apologize.[/quote]
Thank you MisterJB....if we both choose to remain civil and polite, this could be quite an interesting discussion.
[quote]Miranda was not a stolen child/baby prisoner[/quote]
[quote]She was prisioner, yes. So much that she had to run away.
It is true that she was not stolen. However, she was being abused by her own father, someone who was supposed to protect her. One could claim that this would be even more traumatic.
[quote]forced to kill or be killed[/quote]
We don't know that. What if her father, in an attempt to develop her biotic and physical power, forced her into such a situation? You think that's out-of-character for him?
[quote]enduring deliberate unspeakable pain as pain may break the threshold to gain a better biotic[/quote]
Again, we don't know. What we do know is that her father financed Cerberus heavily. Is it so unreasonable to think that Cerberus migth have shared a few tricks with him?
[quote]Jack was clearly an unspeakably abused child[/quote]
Without a doubt.
[quote]I think it can be taken that if Miranda went through such horrors, she would have bought it up, she was happy to discuss every other element in regards to her father.[/quote]
We don't even know the man's name. Miranda withold Oriana's age from Shepard until it was actually relevant, she didn't tell Niket, her friend who helped her escape, that she had returned to resuce her sister.
Miranda doesn't talk about her personal life unless she absolutely has to. Since Shepard agreed to help her without elaborating too much, she probrably didn't feel the need to share anything else.[/quote]
I certainly have never doubted that Miranda had a sh*t childhood...her father is an a**hole...Though to such an extreme extent as Jacks?...If Miranda went through anything like Jack faced, she should really share the horrendous body scars Jack has and plus,what Jack went through, no-one could come out the other side sane, Jack does fit the psychological scarring and trauma profile perfectly, I really seriously doubt that level of abuse could birth anything but, Miranda's too with it, to be that traumatized...Have you ever come across a real life man David Peltzer? One of the top known cases of extreme child abuse, gives quite an insight and what can be achieved if one is strong enough to rise above their childhood, also how it long term affects that person though.
Other than that, Miranda does open up a great deal to Shep, she mentions enough of a number of things about her father to Shep, I do think something that big would come up, considering what else she tells Shep.
[quote]Though Miranda is also fully aware that Cerberus contains a large number of Xenophobes, this she states directly to Shep, plus she seems to have no trouble realizing that Cerberus has run some pretty sick experiments, given her intial defense when Shep questions her about the monsters and Jack, it is obvious she does have prior knowledge given her dialog.[/quote]
[quote]Miranda also expresses dissapointment over so many joining Cerberus out of Xenophobia.
As for the experiments, many would consider the Lazarus Project as "playing God" or would be against simply using the corpses of the dead (Husks and Creepers) as Shock Troopers. That doesn't necessarely mean she aproves of turning humans into monsters.
There are two ways she could have learned about those experiments
A)She was involved/ in charge of them but was unaware that her test subjects had been purposely turned into such by Cerberus. Hence, she tougth they were "already dead".
She admits she spent two years learning everything there is to know about Shepard. She could have requested more info regarding those operations and TIM filtered it.
As for Jack, we do know that Cerberus ordered the shutdown of that place when they realized the extent of the experiments. It's possible that TIM sent a report to Miranda notifying her of this.
Even so, Miranda admits that what happened there was wrong.[/quote]
As stated earlier in this post, I will post the exact info given in ME1 in regards to the Husks, Creepers, etc...who was responsible for the demise of the original person....Miranda does appear to have prior knowledge of these experiments when Shep confronts her about them, though I will be re-checking her actual word for word comment when I again come to it...and if I am wrong about her comment, I will post a sincere apology in the Miranda Fan Thread.
The Lazarus Project, I have wondered about on a few occasions, information is not given though, so have nothing to base any suspicions on...such as did Cerberus perfect their Lazarus treatment on unwilling live participants prior to applying the tech to Shep?....Without info I cannot make assertions or guesses either.
As for Pragia, that also comes down to lack of solid info as to how much TIM really was aware of....And so Miranda admitting Pragia is wrong, still goes back to her really should have been more sensitive to Jacks plight.
[quote]I do not wish this thread to end up a flame war in regards to Miranda....Tom (the original Miranda poster) was polite and put forward his argument with clearness and politeness, as I responded to him...If you wish to debate Miranda with me, take a leaf out of Toms book please, use my whole debate, not just what you wish and taking it out of context.[/quote]
If I took anything our of context, then I apologize. I can assure you it was not my intention.
[/quote]
Thank you again MisterJB.
[quote]Golden Owl wrote...
On the Lazarus Station 2, she is pretty harsh towards Shep on that one...though he didn't get any say in being resurrected and wanted to look for survivors....you could still hear people screaming up until the last conversation on the first station.
[/quote]
[quote]She is harsh to Shepard because she saw Cerberus spend billions of credits on him and place the fate of the Human race on his hands.
She doesn't trust, like or expect Shepard to succeed on this mission. Eventually she does, all three of them. Isn't that what's important?[/quote]
Though it still comes down to, if they did the job right with Shep and bought him back exactly as he was, same morals, etc...They know he will want to do what needs to be done to stop the Reapers and have the right traits to do so....Miranda's task was to bring him back exactly as he was, it would be much more prudent and doing her job and less child like to be questioning him further, not attacking.
[quote]A little quick thought on the Collector Base came up with a resolution (sending drew back with one squaddie), yes, they couldn't turn back at that point, but Miranda was fast to jumb the gun for leaving the crew behind and lost once they were found.[/quote]
[quote]it's true and I understand why people might not like that about her. I always send a squadmate with them myself but, personally, I think it shows that Miranda is willing to make hard choices and I respect her for it.
I see that Garrus is your favorite character. He is my second favorite, right after Miranda, so please don't think that I am trying to insult him.
Garrus was willing to sacrifice a ship full of hostages just to catch one man. Miranda is willing to sacrifice the crew of the Normandy to stop the Collectors. The stakes are much higher in Miranda's case although it's also true that there was no other solution in Garrus's case, it was either sacrifice the hostage or let Heart go.[/quote]
Though the question being, would she be as willing to sacrifice herself? And it still comes down to, shouldn't sacrificing lives be the last option, not the first?
Yes,I love Garrus, though I am not really over concerned if others do not like him, each to their own....As for Heart, Omega and Sidonis...I think it is how Garrus is protrayed, what makes him tick as such that I find so appealing and why I favor him...He is driven by passion, a hot head and something of a rogue....I don't always agree with him, but I can understand where he is coming from, he is fire, Miranda is ice...Fire is passion, Ice is callous, that is the difference I see, does that make sense?
[quote]My Shep has been nothing but polite to Miranda, dislike of someone is never an excuse for rudeness.
[/quote]
[quote]No, but we should also remember that Miranda was probably really angry with herself at that point due to not predicting Wilson's betrayal which lead to Shepard waking up ahead of time and the loss of those working under. Add to that the fact that her upbringing created in her a very detached personality and that Shepard was asking personal questions and you have the ****y Miranda you meet on Lazarus Station 2.
From that point onwards, Miranda is always civil and polite when talking to Shepard and will even aplogize for her
preconceptions.
Can't you forgive her?[/quote]
I always thought Shep asking Miranda the personal question on the second station was kinda silly, always refrain from activating the personal dialog....is not the time or place.
I stated somewhere else in this thread that Miranda may redeem herself in ME3, if she does so, my Shep will hear her, until then she remains on his 'be wary of' radar....she still remains too cold hearted in ME2...I actually did start to warm to her despite her coldness at one point, as I was re-evaluating NPC's, but then she came out with that attack on Joker and EDI after the crew was abducted and I lost it again with her there....how exactly did she expect Joker to have any control over what happened and what exactly did she expect him to do about it?...She lost me in a big way on that one.
[quote]As for Jack, what needs to be remembered is what Jack has endured, yes, Jack busting into Miranda's office was a bad call on Jack's behalf, but for Miranda to call Jack a mistake..."but clearly you were a mistake"....is my issue with that scene...not Miranda defending herself from an attack, but that comment was inexcusable and down right cruel and un-necessary.[/quote]
[quote]I agree, I was suprised by what Miranda said and it was unnecessarily cruel. It proves that Miranda is human like the rest of us and capable of losing her temper.
They both were wrong in there, Jack wasn't able to admit Cerberus doesn't torture children for kicks and Miranda lost her temper.[/quote]
I guess personally I have very strong rules I adhere to in fights....there are things I will not say to people, never hit below the belt, it's a pointless and cruel excercise. And I guess with Miranda's position I expect more of her...I don't hold lives in my hands, she does...she needs to grow up....I find comments like that inexcusable, especially for people in her position, she needs to be the bigger woman, not petty and cruel.
[quote]Justifiable...how so? To be prepared to enforce control over another?...No...Plus, Miranda and Cerberus know Shep already has a priority agenda to stop the Reaper invasion if they bought him back exactly as he was, if he wasn't the exact same wo/man, the experiment would have failed anyway, thus making bringing Shep back fruitless....he will not jepordise the Reaper threat over pettiness.[/quote]
[quote]I think it's justifiable. If I had to bring Saren back to life to stop the Reapers, I would try to have a way of making sure he wouldn't betray me.
Besides, there are at least some cases in the game where you can act against Cerberus's best interests. Giving that data to the Alliance, for example.
And it's also possible that Miranda feared that Shepard would make mistakes that would jeopardize the mission and wanted to make sure she could prevent them.[/quote]
Saren is a proven liability, his moral standards and cowardice are a known weakness.....Miranda's home work on Shep, shows him to be obviously otherwise.
Giving the Data to the Alliance, I don't think is that big an issue....it states 'if this went public it could seriously hurt Cerberus'...the Alliance is not public and handles things privately, they don't air dirty laundry to the public...Now if Shep chooses to keep it, that can be dangerous, s/he may decide to make it public, eg. Emily Wong....But a point made there MisterJB.
[quote]All they needed was the omni-tool and Shep had enough history with Tali to ensure that the omni tool and it's findings would be forwarded....They did not need Veetor, only the omni tool. Miranda was not thinking things through, just jumbing the gun again at the expense of another...a display of the inability to empathize.[/quote]
[quote]There are many other questions that could have been asked to Veetor, Saphra mentioned them a few posts ago.
Cerberus and the Quarians don't have a good history and we don't know how the Quarians politics work. Tali's superiors could have objected against sending the data to Cerberus and what then? Would Tali have done it anyway? There was no way of knowying.
Miranda can empathize if that doesn't risk the mission, she is all in favor of helping those Salarians on Nassana's tower, for example. We're at war, we can't take risks or make assumptions if there are ways of being sure (taking Veetor).
Even Jacob defends taking him.[/quote]
As was stated by others in later posts also though, a traumatized person does not make a good reference point...If you want solid information from a person, the more relaxed and comfortable they are, the better....much like trying to ask a child what happened when their highly upset and in tears, you will not get a straight answer from them, they need to be calmed and settled first....Interrogating Veetor is a guaranteed pointless task from the get go. Plus a little faith needs to be had in Sheps past relationships with Tali, home work would have supplied enough info to Cerberus to know that Tali would help Shep in any way she can, based on their history....yes, I do believe Tali would have forwarded the info regardless of her superiors, in her mind it would be for Shep, not Cerberus, plus she knows of the imminant Reaper threat, which would make getting Shep the info imperative to her.
[quote]No the Husks were not already dead, I am currently replaying ME1 and can state for a fact that it is noted and journaled that Cerberus is directly responsible for the deaths of the colonists by Dragon Teeth on that planet. As for the Rachni, Cerberus had every intention of setting them upon criminal elements around the traverse...does anyone really deserve to die that way?Also Exo-Geni is stated as a wing of Cerberus, Exo-Geni is directly responisble for the Thorian experiments on the Zhus Hope populace, taking live victims and having them turned into Thorian Creepers. [/quote]
[quote]Even if Cerberus did those things (is there proof?), Miranda was against experimenting on Rachni as soon as they were discovered to be sentient. Obviously, she would be against forcing said sentient beings to fight for us and even more so against turning humans into Husks or Creepers.
Miranda proved herself capable of admitting when Cerberus commits mistakes (Pragia) so she must not have known that Cerberus had gone behind her back and done those things, if they did.[/quote]
Proof will be posted in the next couple of days
[quote]Then theres Toombs and Kahoku, Toombs and his crew deliberately exposed to Thresher Maws, then Toombs imprisoned to monitor his reactions and Kahoku was not directly assinninated, if you read the clip, he became a casualty in more Cerberus sick experiments.[/quote]
[quote]Miranda did not express herself regarding Toombs and Kahoku. I can only say that Miranda's number 1 concern (besides Oriana) has always been the protection of mankind and conjecture that she would not have approved of those experiments.
I could see her approving of killing Kahoku is he became dangerous but not of experimenting on him.[/quote]
[quote]For the record, if you choose to post a comment I have made, please do so in it's entirety, it looses its full meaning when broken up. [/quote]
[quote]I admit that I did not think so. If it offended you, I apologize.[/quote]
Thank you MisterJB....if we both choose to remain civil and polite, this could be quite an interesting discussion.
[quote]Miranda was not a stolen child/baby prisoner[/quote]
[quote]She was prisioner, yes. So much that she had to run away.
It is true that she was not stolen. However, she was being abused by her own father, someone who was supposed to protect her. One could claim that this would be even more traumatic.
[quote]forced to kill or be killed[/quote]
We don't know that. What if her father, in an attempt to develop her biotic and physical power, forced her into such a situation? You think that's out-of-character for him?
[quote]enduring deliberate unspeakable pain as pain may break the threshold to gain a better biotic[/quote]
Again, we don't know. What we do know is that her father financed Cerberus heavily. Is it so unreasonable to think that Cerberus migth have shared a few tricks with him?
[quote]Jack was clearly an unspeakably abused child[/quote]
Without a doubt.
[quote]I think it can be taken that if Miranda went through such horrors, she would have bought it up, she was happy to discuss every other element in regards to her father.[/quote]
We don't even know the man's name. Miranda withold Oriana's age from Shepard until it was actually relevant, she didn't tell Niket, her friend who helped her escape, that she had returned to resuce her sister.
Miranda doesn't talk about her personal life unless she absolutely has to. Since Shepard agreed to help her without elaborating too much, she probrably didn't feel the need to share anything else.[/quote]
I certainly have never doubted that Miranda had a sh*t childhood...her father is an a**hole...Though to such an extreme extent as Jacks?...If Miranda went through anything like Jack faced, she should really share the horrendous body scars Jack has and plus,what Jack went through, no-one could come out the other side sane, Jack does fit the psychological scarring and trauma profile perfectly, I really seriously doubt that level of abuse could birth anything but, Miranda's too with it, to be that traumatized...Have you ever come across a real life man David Peltzer? One of the top known cases of extreme child abuse, gives quite an insight and what can be achieved if one is strong enough to rise above their childhood, also how it long term affects that person though.
Other than that, Miranda does open up a great deal to Shep, she mentions enough of a number of things about her father to Shep, I do think something that big would come up, considering what else she tells Shep.
[quote]Though Miranda is also fully aware that Cerberus contains a large number of Xenophobes, this she states directly to Shep, plus she seems to have no trouble realizing that Cerberus has run some pretty sick experiments, given her intial defense when Shep questions her about the monsters and Jack, it is obvious she does have prior knowledge given her dialog.[/quote]
[quote]Miranda also expresses dissapointment over so many joining Cerberus out of Xenophobia.
As for the experiments, many would consider the Lazarus Project as "playing God" or would be against simply using the corpses of the dead (Husks and Creepers) as Shock Troopers. That doesn't necessarely mean she aproves of turning humans into monsters.
There are two ways she could have learned about those experiments
A)She was involved/ in charge of them but was unaware that her test subjects had been purposely turned into such by Cerberus. Hence, she tougth they were "already dead".
She admits she spent two years learning everything there is to know about Shepard. She could have requested more info regarding those operations and TIM filtered it.As for Jack, we do know that Cerberus ordered the shutdown of that place when they realized the extent of the experiments. It's possible that TIM sent a report to Miranda notifying her of this.
Even so, Miranda admits that what happened there was wrong.[/quote]
As stated earlier in this post, I will post the exact info given in ME1 in regards to the Husks, Creepers, etc...who was responsible for the demise of the original person....Miranda does appear to have prior knowledge of these experiments when Shep confronts her about them, though I will be re-checking her actual word for word comment when I again come to it...and if I am wrong about her comment, I will post a sincere apology in the Miranda Fan Thread.
The Lazarus Project, I have wondered about on a few occasions, information is not given though, so have nothing to base any suspicions on...such as did Cerberus perfect their Lazarus treatment on unwilling live participants prior to applying the tech to Shep?....Without info I cannot make assertions or guesses either.
As for Pragia, that also comes down to lack of solid info as to how much TIM really was aware of....And so Miranda admitting Pragia is wrong, still goes back to her really should have been more sensitive to Jacks plight.
[quote]I do not wish this thread to end up a flame war in regards to Miranda....Tom (the original Miranda poster) was polite and put forward his argument with clearness and politeness, as I responded to him...If you wish to debate Miranda with me, take a leaf out of Toms book please, use my whole debate, not just what you wish and taking it out of context.[/quote]
If I took anything our of context, then I apologize. I can assure you it was not my intention.
[/quote]
Thank you again MisterJB.
