327 réponses à ce sujet

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

It's really different with mods though. I would say in gameplay, on the surface (ie, you shoot everyone), it handles similar to, but better than, Fallout 3. It's when you start experimenting with skills and builds is when things get different. Rolling a pacifist actually works this time around. As does working as a stealther. Plus, the interconnected quests makes it great to play the factions on one another. Wild Card ftw.

New Vegas feels like Fallout 3 on the surface, but plays like a super mutant child of VtMB and the originals once you get to the nitty gritty.

I'm mixed on whether I want to do another Witcher 2 playthrough, or whether I should go back to New Vegas, pickup Honest Hearts and restart a new game with Project Nevada.

Lol.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 04 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I'll have to experiment, mix and match how Project Nevada works out with XFO. It adds a lot of nifty features, but I really like the difficulty, focus on stats and improved AI that XFO brings. Lol, I don't both with God-mode mods or the sex mods. Rather pointless imo.

[In Exile]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...
Look Exile, I respect you. 90% of the time you are logical and give discussion points in a coherent manner. What I am disappointed at though, is this time... you are wrong. Sorry, to be blunt but your view of F:NV is so skewed that it appears that you haven't even played the game.

No, I played the game.

It's funny that you really need to embelish your post to try and get your point across. So skewed. Full of holes. Off-base. Beyond flawed. It's like ... if you repeated enough, it has to get taken seriously. Sorry, no. You're wrong. Time to show you why:

And then you fall back on the "pandering to CoD crowd" statement that is so tired and false, it's starting to actually make no damn sense at all to use it. Obsidian used the Gamebryo engine that FO3 used, for F:NV... the same engine Beth used for Oblivion. And Oblivion was made before people used b.s. lame statements like "pandering to CoD crowds". So your statement is full of holes and is completely off-base.

FO3 is an FPS with some behind the scenes stats (the FPS gameplay is actually easier in NV than in FO3) like ME1. FO3 is structured like an FPS. The major knock against DA2 was that it was hunting for big money by 'streamlining' the RPG expereince to produce over the top combat to draw in fans of COD. Well, FO3 beat DA2 to the punch by a few years, by chaning the isometric turn-based gameplay of Fallout 1&2 to an FPS. I know which engine it is - but the gameplay is still an FPS.

Do you want me to dig up the statements you used to trash Bioware, in this thread, about which crowd they were pursuing and what changes were made to pursue them? Because FO3 already made those changes, and the brave souls at Obsidian kept everything the same.

And yes, having DLC ready IS a good thing when the game feels like a full game. I can play F:NV without DLC and feel like I have played a complete game. That can't be said with vanilla ME2 and DA2. ME2 had what... 8 guns on launch, since when has 8 weapons in an RPG been a good decision, or acceptable, then it was obvious they gutted some of the weapons that "should" have been in the vanilla release so they could charge for item packs or force you into buying DLC to acquire them. That's not acceptable when the game is short on weapons to begin with.

But DLC that's produced simulatenously with the vanilla shouldn't be in the vanilla release? It's totally okay to design content while you're developing the full version of the game, to later charge users $5 for.... as long as you feel you get enough items to play with in vanilla? Seriously? That's the argument you're going to go with?

Do you know what the word hypocrisy means? Because you just broke the scale on that. Also, it's interesting you're switching to ME2. Why not stick to DA2?

"They essentially added nothing" *same sentence* "the tacked on Hardcore mode".

That entire statement is a contradiction. You say they essentially added nothing to the FO3 game except a new story, and map.... but then they added another mode, Hardcore. They also added survival and that skill is meant for Hardcore mode and Hardcore mode feels like an excellent and completely different gameplay style than vanilla FO3/F:NV gameplay. So your logic is beyond flawed.

I think you need to review what the word essentially means. It's generally used to mean fundamentally. Chaging essentially nothing != changing nothing. So, no, for the literate, it's not a contradiction.

Like you so helpfully pointed out, New Vegas made no significant changes to gameplay. They used the same engine since Oblivion that was retooled for FO3.

They added a new location, they wrote a better story (which isn't changing anything about the gameplay or features)... and then tacked on crowd-pleasures for the RPG faithful. When they already had their mass-market game, with FPS mechanics and simplified gameplay.

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juin 2011 - 09:31 .

[In Exile]

mrcrusty wrote...

It's really different with mods though.

Well, sure. But that's not something you can give to New Vegas. Fallout 3 (and Oblivion, and Morrowind) handle brilliantly with mods. It's what Bestheda adds to the user experience.

I would say in gameplay, on the surface (ie, you shoot everyone), it handles similar to, but better than, Fallout 3. It's when you start experimenting with skills and builds is when things get different. Rolling a pacifist actually works this time around. As does working as a stealther. Plus, the interconnected quests makes it great to play the factions on one another. Wild Card ftw.

Which Obsidian deserves full credit for. But the actual story was weak. What they did well was implement the faction mechanic and the conversation skills.

New Vegas feels like Fallout 3 on the surface, but plays like a super mutant child of VtMB and the originals once you get to the nitty gritty.

Vanilla plays like Fallout 3. It's got the storyboard of Masquerade.

But that's my point. It's not that Obsidian jumped in to produce a turn-based game. They produced a mass-market game that they added RPG features in on the sly, to keep both group of fans happy. Which is exactly what Bioware aims to do.

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juin 2011 - 09:32 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Story was underwhelming yes, but Fallouts were never narrative focused like Bioware games. If you're thinking that the original Fallouts were set on a narrative track like Baldur's Gate or Black Isle's Planescape: Torment, you'd be mistaken. You can very easily skip or miss certain narrative "milestones" but the game adjusted to it.

You could legitimately beat Fallout 1 in about 15 minutes with the right build.

Fallout was always about dumping the player into a setting, a robust system character system that drove every action the player did and let them loose to play through the narratives however they wished, with varying results. The narrative itself wasn't a story in the sense of Bioware's "following the tale of so and so", it was about letting the player examine the morality of post apocalyptic societies, how they interact with one another and make decisions on what the player felt was best for humanity.

On that note, New Vegas delivers. Gameplay systems such as real time vs turn based and 1st/3rd person vs isometric is utterly secondary.

It's depth comes in it's character system, which governs every part of the character and the depth in it's quest design. Multiple ways to play morally or playstyle and they are accounted for. Also, it had some pretty good exploration.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 04 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Just to add, over the top combat. Exploding bodies, stylised animations, horrible wave design, ninja spawns, HP bloating are the major complaints leveled against DA 2's combat. With the exception of exploding bodies, none of those apply to New Vegas or F3. Even then, exploding bodies is optional (Bloody Mess Perk only). Dragon Age 2's, is not. Though, I would rather they get the exploding bodies out of NV. Death animations like in the originals were cooler. Kind of like how killing blows in Origins were better.

The argument is analogous to claiming that Deus Ex or VtMB are aimed at CoD gamers because of the real time combat & first person perspective. It's much more than that, and you know it.

Rather than using the CoD argument (I actually play CoD), which is a stereotype and not an actual comparison, I find that the God of War games are a much better game to compare it with.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 04 juin 2011 - 10:18 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Yes, but the "CoD fans" argument isn't made because of actual gameplay similarities, it's referring to a stereotype of gamers who would like CoD-like games.

Essentially, a stereotype of younger players who don't want to learn a (RPG) game's mechanics and want gameplay to reflect a mindset of instant gratification. The "button = awesome" stereotype.

The argument that In Exile is making is that DA 2 isn't an FPS, F3/FNV are FPS which have real time combat not completely dictated by stats. Therefore, F3/FNV are like CoD. Of course, by that logic, all FPS games and games with guns are appealing to the CoD crowd. Hear that Arma, STALKER, Deus Ex, VtMB & System Shock fans?

Your games all appeal to the CoD audience.



What he leaves out by convenience is that the CoD argument is never used in terms of literal gameplay comparisons, otherwise Mass Effect 1/2 and the aforementioned games would be subjected to the same criticisms.

If you were to make a literal gameplay comparison, God of War would be much more appropriate due to the over the top combat and perceived reliance on button mashing skills without tactical decision making on normal difficulty.

For the record, my issues with Dragon Age 2's combat was more in it's enemy and encounter design than it's animations and mechanics.

If the enemy and encounter design were laid out better, I could probably say "yeah, animations aren't perfect, but overall the combat is pretty good". But I don't. I just say "I like the faster speed, but the animations were ridiculous and the enemy/encounter design was absolutely horrible".

Modifié par mrcrusty, 04 juin 2011 - 11:48 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

If you like God of War and Ninja Gaiden, then that's great. Play God of War and Ninja Gaiden. Dragon Age started out as something different though so yeah, I'm not terribly excited about it trying to fit the latest video game exploding corpse and rediculous combat animation trends. It's just taking a big leap towards something that didn't fit the game world at all the first go around.

Rediculously fast paced, gorey action games can be fun and have their place, but people don't try to add roleplay elements and dialogue to them so please, don't try to convince the Developers that Dragon Age needs more backflipping ninjas with even more streamlined skills, fewer roleplay options and more exploding corpses.

Genres of games are like spices to me, there's proportion and flavor to each element tossed into the recipe to create the final, finished product. But putting a little bit of everything in the spice cabinet will make any dish taste funky, bizzare or frankly...like crap. DA 2 left a wierd taste in my mouth, one that was not enjoyable. There are more than enough actiony fantasy games with magic, blood, severed limbs and over-the-top fighting. I'm hoping Bioware doesn't take too many more steps down this path.

[Il Divo]

SicoWolf- wrote...


All of which are fixed through patches, be it official or fan made.

Keep in mind though, what a fan does to patch a game will not be attributed to Obsidian. Any content that's not produced by Obsidian isn't really applicable to whether they're qualified to make Dragon Age 3. There's also console fans to consider who don't have access to computer mods.

And if I recall correctly, it did take them more than a few months for Obsidian to actually patch Neverwinter Nights 2, based on what I've seen which is not really starting out on the best foot.

NWN2 was an amazing experience once it was patched up. One of my all time favorites.

On the topic of Neverwinter Nights 2, I reinstalled it a few weeks. I like that they included more than the standard 3.0 classes, unfortunately I'm finding the camera to be extremely problematic thus far. 

[Nepenthe87]

mrcrusty wrote...

It's really different with mods though. I would say in gameplay, on the surface (ie, you shoot everyone), it handles similar to, but better than, Fallout 3. It's when you start experimenting with skills and builds is when things get different. Rolling a pacifist actually works this time around. As does working as a stealther. Plus, the interconnected quests makes it great to play the factions on one another. Wild Card ftw.

New Vegas feels like Fallout 3 on the surface, but plays like a super mutant child of VtMB and the originals once you get to the nitty gritty.

I'm mixed on whether I want to do another Witcher 2 playthrough, or whether I should go back to New Vegas, pickup Honest Hearts and restart a new game with Project Nevada.

Lol.

honest hearts was okay; better than Dead money, but nowhere near as fun as doing The Pitt. Wait til later this month when "Old World blues"  DLC is released. It's supposed to be the biggest one so far and looks to be the most interesting one filled with a lot of lore.



Also to be fair In Exile, Bethesda wasnt going to allow Obsidian to drastically change the core gameplay of Fallout 3 just to give New Vegas that older fallout feel. they tweaked what they could and tried to make as many stats and skills worthwhile as possible with what they were given. I think that is very commendable.

and i think you are completely offbase by saying that just because it's in first person and has guns it is only a shooter that panders to the CoD crowd. Almost all Bethsoft games are in first person. Is Morrowind a FPS that panders to the CoD crowd just because it's in first person and you can shoot bows? no, it isnt, it's a first person RPG. Just like Fallout 3/NV are FPSRPG's. In my opinion they are some of the best examples of merging the RPG and FPS genre together, New vegas much more than the other though.

And i agree that Fallout games are setting based not story based. the most amount of story you really need to enjoy any fallout game is what Ron Pearlman tells you at the beginning. The rest is all up to the player and setting they are in, and I'll say nothing is more satisfying than hacking Moira Brown to pieces with a machete while "butcher pete" plays on radio.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 04 juin 2011 - 05:51 .

[Kalmarath]

In Exile wrote...

..so that tells us that Bestheda is the true King...

But Oblivion was terrible 

[In Exile]

ETA:

I would rather bow out of this debate. Consider this a complete surrender if you want. You were right, I was wrong. Let's move on to greener pastures. I dislike the hostility.

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juin 2011 - 07:03 .

[Mecher3k]

KOTOR 2, so no.

[Mystik]

KOTOR 2 was nothing compared to the original, incomplete, buggy and the story wasn't half as good. I didn't even get out of the first area in NWN 2. KOTOR 2 was fine but really both games done by Bioware would have been way better. so no thanks.

[-Semper-]

In Exile wrote...

They produced a mass-market game that they added RPG features in on the sly, to keep both group of fans happy. Which is exactly what Bioware aims to do.

they added rpg elements to f3 just to please a group of players? and you've also got the nerves to compare this to the half arsed job bio**** did to overhaul their franchise riding the quick buck? ....you're serious?! are you in heavy brain damage mode?

Il Divo wrote...

unfortunately I'm finding the camera to be extremely problematic thus far. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

if you're using character mode as camera then instantly quit this. better use exploring mode and play the game how it was meant to be played - in iso view.

Modifié par -Semper-, 04 juin 2011 - 08:57 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

*hugs*

[Gatt9]

In Exile wrote...
In fact, Fallout 3 sold more than DA:O, so that tells us that Bestheda is the true King, who should take over Dragon Age from Bioware.

Actually,  Fallout 3 didn't sell all that well.

Bethseda shipped 4.6 million units,  and did an EA trumpting how they shipped the units.  Alot of people confused shipped and sold,  and assumed Bethseda sold 4.6 million,  they didn't.

The NPD numbers showed that they only sold about 1.6 - 1.7 million units,  allowing about a 50% of US factor for worldwide sales,  Bethseda only sold about 2.2 - 2.4 million units before they dropped off the NPD charts(They only stayed on for about 6 weeks).  Antagonizing the RPG players proved to be a bad move for Bethseda.  Nowhere near the number of units they shipped.

I actually found it really entertaining.  My local Circuit City couldn't give the things away while they were closing,  the entire video game side was cleaned out,  except for dozens of Fallout 3 copies marked at 60% off.  You literally could've bought them,  and gone right over to gamestop and traded them in,  and made profit,  and people still wouldn't take them.  My local Best Buy had 2 lunchboxe editions they couldn't sell for like a year,  IIRC they finally got rid of them during a big sale.  For the record,  my city is a world known mid-sized city.

Modifié par Gatt9, 05 juin 2011 - 02:47 .

[Il Divo]

-Semper- wrote...

if you're using character mode as camera then instantly quit this. better use exploring mode and play the game how it was meant to be played - in iso view.

Admittedly this was an issue at first. I tend to play most Bioware games in character mode, so the switch to the isometric view was tough. Still, even once getting used to it, I still find the controls/camera control clunky.