25 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

It's funny, Meredith tries using the fact that Hawke is an "apostate" who has only been allowed freedom because he/she is a protector of the city. And that it could change.

BS is what I say. Meredith knows that if she forced Hawke into the Circle that all of Kirkwall would turn on her. Since Hawke is the Champion who saved them all from the Qunari and a very well known and loved person by many.

Trying to but Hawke in the Circle would be like trying to kick the Hero of Ferelden out of Ferelden. It just ain't happening. At least not without a lot of pissed off people.

[marshalleck]

Seriously, it would almost be like trying to crucify Jesus...oh wait.

[Persona]

Actually at the first act they always mention your sister, if your a warrior. But whats stupid is they never say anything about hawke even befor he makes money. Thats where I find lack of story, also you can kill merril anyway so whats the big deal.

[WhiteKnyght]

Persona wrote...

Actually at the first act they always mention your sister, if your a warrior. But whats stupid is they never say anything about hawke even befor he makes money. Thats where I find lack of story, also you can kill merril anyway so whats the big deal.

No, you've got that wrong.

Bethany is only discovered by the Templars if you don't take her on the expedition. So she can only continue in the game as a Circle Mage or a Grey Warden. And Meredith tries to use Bethany to blackmail Hawke(IE if Hawke doesn't comply Bethany might end up dead or Tranquil).

Hawke is apparently discovered by the Templars sometime in Act II, but he is allowed to roam free. Presumably because he was essential for mediating the Qunari. That and he is much more lethal than any other mage in Kirkwall. Dozens of Templars who crossed him have died.

Merrill doesn't use her magic in public, even when she was living with the Dalish.

Anders is paranoid about Templars, and Cullen even recognizes him as a mage. But I think they let him stay free because of his clinic.

[Persona]

Well what I mean't is they never seem to notice much that hes a mage even though hes running around helping people. Merril does use her magic if you are fighting in front of people, which does happen alot and its usally quest npcs and the loads of random npcs they put in. Even as a mage when you fight those guards at the start of just entering kirkwall. I just thought they went really slack on the story being about mages, but when hawke or any company with him use it no one cares, yet the main story is built around mages and templers.

Modifié par Persona, 02 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[TJPags]

Well, where's the story if they throw the PC in the mage Tower and lock him in solitary?

Kirkwall is hell on mages, but people want to play mages. So Hawke gets plot armor. As do his companions, who can certainly use all sorts of magic in front of all sorts of people. Because otherwise, they either have to let the PC get locked up - which kind of kills the game, you know - or keep people from playing as mages.

[LobselVith8]

The writers could have handled the story without Hawke performing magic in front of guards and templars, TJPags. It's not like the developers were forced to have apostates using magic in front of the very people who should be arresting them.

[TJPags]

How, Lob? Remove all the random attacks that take place in the City? Remove the quest where you rescue Cullen from the possesed recruit? Remove every quest that involves any kind of fight in the City?

Maybe they could have, but I'm not sure it would be easy, particularly with the story set in one City all the time.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

How, Lob? Remove all the random attacks that take place in the City? Remove the quest where you rescue Cullen from the possesed recruit? Remove every quest that involves any kind of fight in the City?

Maybe they could have, but I'm not sure it would be easy, particularly with the story set in one City all the time.

You could be attacked by random Mobs in BGII, but it was ILLEGAL to use Arcane magic in Athkatla and it was rigorously enforced by the Cowled Wizards.  You do it once, you get a warning (outside in daylight).  Do it twice, and you got the "game over" screen.  There is no reason why something similiar couldn't have been arranged in DA2 (in BG2 you payed a hefty bribe for the Cowled Wizards to overlook your activities).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

How, Lob? Remove all the random attacks that take place in the City? Remove the quest where you rescue Cullen from the possesed recruit? Remove every quest that involves any kind of fight in the City?

Maybe they could have, but I'm not sure it would be easy, particularly with the story set in one City all the time.

Off the top of my head, Hawke doesn't need to fight people in the Gallows with so many witnesses. Hawke can fight people at night, and there could be templar antagonists tied into it who are fought (no different than "Midnight Meeting") or even deal with Thrask instead because of Bethany, Anders, and Merrill using magic. Cullen could have been rendered unconscious instead of plot blind as well.

I'm only saying it's possible, TJPags. I still feel there should have been an apostate POV for an actual apostate, and instead I get more of an understanding of how it's like to be an illegal mage from Bethany as a rogue or a warrior than I do as an actual mage.

[DragonSailor]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The writers could have handled the story without Hawke performing magic in front of guards and templars, TJPags. It's not like the developers were forced to have apostates using magic in front of the very people who should be arresting them.

Agree. The story would have been much more engaging, interesting, and dynamic if Hawke's class actually impacted the story. The most obvious impact would be from Hawke being a mage - perhaps Hawke is thrown in the Gallows for being an apostate but escapes or his companions help him escape. Maybe he's fined or has to either fight or avoid attention from templars when she fights in certain parts of Kirkwall at certain times of day.

But such obstacles aren't limited to  mages. Yes, as a mage Hawke would have to avoid the templars, but as a warrior or rogue she might have to avoid the city guard (at first, before Aveline's captain) for being a known associate of smugglers, for using illegal posions, for accepting shady quests and conducting her own brand of personal justice - the possiblities are endless and, most importantly, such reasoning is already there within the story. Hawke is essientially a medieval batman - a vilgilante who takes matters into his own hands. But does the Act I city guard have problems with this? Nope. And Aveline freely associates with Hawke. Hawke kills people left and right and constantly thwarts the law with little reprecussions, but no one seems to care what she does. The potential for depth is there - bioware just didn't see it through.

Modifié par DragonSailor, 03 juin 2011 - 12:57 .

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How, Lob? Remove all the random attacks that take place in the City? Remove the quest where you rescue Cullen from the possesed recruit? Remove every quest that involves any kind of fight in the City?

Maybe they could have, but I'm not sure it would be easy, particularly with the story set in one City all the time.

You could be attacked by random Mobs in BGII, but it was ILLEGAL to use Arcane magic in Athkatla and it was rigorously enforced by the Cowled Wizards.  You do it once, you get a warning (outside in daylight).  Do it twice, and you got the "game over" screen.  There is no reason why something similiar couldn't have been arranged in DA2 (in BG2 you payed a hefty bribe for the Cowled Wizards to overlook your activities).

-Polaris

Sure, but in BG2, couldn't you buy a license or a pass to use magic?  In DA, it's illegal to be a mage outside the circle.  So it's not just that Hawke uses magic, it's that he's a mage.  He's not a GW, he's not from, say, Tevinter.  He's a citizen of Ferelden or Kirkwall - take your pick - both of which fall under Chantry law of "all mages belong in the Circle or dead".  As you yourself know, Ian.

What plot hole could they find to ignore Chantry law - especially in a place which, as you point out so often, is basically being RUN by Templars - except "oh, Meredith was holding it back to blackmail him" or something similar?

Meh, believe and think what you wish.  To me, it's a huge mistake to let people play as a mage in a City run by people's whose JOB and reason for existence is to enforce a law which requires mages locked up or dead.  Especially when you want to make the leader of that group of enforcers a bit - or more - obsessed with doing her job.

[ReiSilver]

I actually LOVED when someone finally used Hawke's status as an apostate against them. It was too bad it only happened all the way in Act 3. And when Meredith give you that 'I'll over look your use of magic... for now' line at the end of act 2, I think my Hawke nearly wet himself, oh man that could have been some really tense drama if they had DONE ANYTHING with it
A lot of Social Justice gaming blogs have pointed out the theme of 'passing' in DA2. Feynriel even spells out that he managed to 'pass' as human despite his elven blood, Merrill talks about how being an elf renders her invisible to most people, we see Varric paying off people to leave Anders alone. For the first year the Mage PC is being protected by their employers but for act1 you're out on your own, this would have been a great opportunity for some side quests involving Hawke's 'secret identity'. Then act 2 we've got money/nobility which buys some leeway but still would have been nice to see some damage control and then we get to Act3 and you're champion and Meredith FINALLY threatens you if you don't want to do as she says.
I love the idea of having a quest where some templars saw you using magic when fighting thugs one night and you had to run and make sure they can't identify you or something.
The Magistrate comes to mind instantly as a plot quest which went no where, here we have a powerful figure and you've potentially just killed his son, what if he found out you were a mage and then you have to stop him from talking to the templars, or he used it to black mail you and generally make your life hell just like he promised (while muttering, walking away with not even a cutscene when I just killed his son gods I hated that)
The instance with Cullen is another prime missed chance, there could have been some important dialogue going on to convince him to let hawke go, or say Cullen will let you off this one time if you help out with the templars and after that he better not catch you again or he wont be able to look the other way etc.

[Rolenka]

I don't think Meredith would let an apostate go free simply because putting them in chains would be unpopular. She was never concerned about people liking her.

I don't think she let Hawke go out of fear, either, even though calling Hawke "formidable" is a laughable understatement.

I think she may be telling the truth there. Remember, she had enough faith in Hawke to assign him/her the task of tracking down apostates, and had hope it would bring him/her to her side. She saw potential in Hawke.

[dragonflight288]

She likely let him free because she was so busy handling blood mages, and Hawke, well, doesn't have to be a blood mage based on the player, so the storyline may show us he isn't, and he isn't actively causing harm to people (well, unless they try to harm him first). Once Meredith knew about him, I bet she was going to bring him in. But first the Qunar....

Wait, she comes in, the nobles are cheering him on, and heaping praises on him...she may be the acting viscount so she needs to be on the good side of the nobles...oh crap.

[WhiteKnyght]

Rolenka wrote...

I don't think Meredith would let an apostate go free simply because putting them in chains would be unpopular. She was never concerned about people liking her.

I don't think she let Hawke go out of fear, either, even though calling Hawke "formidable" is a laughable understatement.

I think she may be telling the truth there. Remember, she had enough faith in Hawke to assign him/her the task of tracking down apostates, and had hope it would bring him/her to her side. She saw potential in Hawke.

In that last three years Meredith wasn't just Knight-Commander, she also stepped in to fill Viscount Dumar's position.  In a job like that public relations are important. People not liking her is one thing. Having every person in the city rising up against her and the Templars and booting them out of Kirkwall is another.

She couldn't touch Hawke because it would cause more backlash than she, and likely those above her(Grand Cleric, the Divine, etc) were willing to tolerate.

[Beerfish]

Alot of people who talked tough to Hawke were in reality afaid of him/her and in the end they were correct. They wanted to try and be on his/her good side because he/she can get things done outside normal channels.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Meredith, like Anders with his war for freedom, is desperately searching for a reason to invoke the Right of Annulment. She wouldn't care if she were to be seen as the "bad guy" for moving against Hawke, as long as she gets to do what must be done.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meredith, like Anders with his war for freedom, is desperately searching for a reason to invoke the Right of Annulment. She wouldn't care if she were to be seen as the "bad guy" for moving against Hawke, as long as she gets to do what must be done.

Really? The "gets to do what must be done" part is only driven by her insanity caused by her family issues and a lyrium object.

[Ryzaki]

I really thought that moment was ridiculous.

Really Meredith? I mean...ugh.

[Chromie]

marshalleck wrote...

Seriously, it would almost be like trying to crucify Jesus...oh wait.

[Shinsetsu]

Maybe behind the scenes the Grand Cleric was holding back Meredith on Hawk's behalf. If you stop and think about it, she had ties to the Amell family, and knew Leandra's history of running off with an apostate. If she figured out Hawk was an apostate like his father, she probably realized that attempting to put him into the circle would just result in him fleeing the city, with a trail of dead Templars left in his wake. And on top of that, Kirkwall would have lost someone who was generally helpful and needed by it citizens. It just seems like something Elthena would have done, given her attempts to keep the peace.

Just a theory mind you though.

[Kenshen]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Grand Cleric had a lot to do with keeping Hawke out of the tower but why didn't she do that for Bethany. The Viscount also probably had a hand in keeping Hawke out of the tower considering what we did for him personally and for the city and by the end of act 2 Hawke is pretty much untouchable.

[Ryzaki]

Shinsetsu wrote...

Maybe behind the scenes the Grand Cleric was holding back Meredith on Hawk's behalf. If you stop and think about it, she had ties to the Amell family, and knew Leandra's history of running off with an apostate. If she figured out Hawk was an apostate like his father, she probably realized that attempting to put him into the circle would just result in him fleeing the city, with a trail of dead Templars left in his wake. And on top of that, Kirkwall would have lost someone who was generally helpful and needed by it citizens. It just seems like something Elthena would have done, given her attempts to keep the peace.

Just a theory mind you though.

Now this is a good theory.

Too bad BW didn't put anything to support it in game. (Plus Bethany still gets taken).

[XSevSpreeX]

aryon69 wrote...

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Grand Cleric had a lot to do with keeping Hawke out of the tower but why didn't she do that for Bethany. The Viscount also probably had a hand in keeping Hawke out of the tower considering what we did for him personally and for the city and by the end of act 2 Hawke is pretty much untouchable.

If it can be assumed that the Grand Cleric had something to do with Hawke not being put in the Circle, then I guess that Bethany got put in because she did less for Kirkwall than Hawke did. Bethany was taken before Hawke gets the chance to actually make a name of himself. Sure he's kind of well known, but he's not important to the city yet. So maybe Elthena did tell the templars to leave Bethany alone but Meredith ignores her because Bethany's not as important as Hawke? In other words, Meredith sees Hawke as useful and doesn't see Bethany as his equal.

Just a theory and an attempt to fill another plot hole.

Modifié par XSevSpreeX, 03 juin 2011 - 07:07 .