163 réponses à ce sujet

[SuicidalBaby]

Tally ho then

[mr_afk]

I have my doubts that such a happy medium will be easy to find. However, playing with tactics could lead to a better dmg maximisation than the current strategies yield.

Here's my take on it:
 - If Anders constantly spams martyr he only just achieves close-to-permanent haste. Less martyrs would result in a greater period without haste. A greater period without haste = -50%dps for the whole party.
 - Martyr will always temporarily disable Anders. This means that the full dps of anders will always be limited when aiming at perma-haste.
 - Thus it simply becomes a matter of whether having extra seconds with haste for the three other party members is better damage-wise than having anders' full dps but missing out on some haste.

The extra seconds from martyr will grant approximately 28seconds pre-patch/34seconds post-patch which means that not using martyr = not gaining the +50%attack-speed bonus after the first 20 seconds (as most fights don't last longer than a minute).
Assuming that Anders is completely disabled and doesn't add anything to party damage and that the other three party members deal approximately the same damage as anders (though this isn't the case for both), for the periods potentially sans haste, you would have (75%)(150%)=112.5% party dmg via haste to 100% party dmg for up to half a minute.

However, that's not to say that pumping martyr is the way to go. In order to have Anders achieve continuous haste he has to be pumping martyr the entire time. This means that you would be missing out on Anders' full dps the entire fight (e.g. the first 20seconds before haste runs out).
Additionally, anders can be built to be one of the heaviest damage-dealers in the party. With vengeance he can get +20%damage and in an elemental build with elemental accessories he can get a considerable amount of +%fire/cold damage which can be further doubled by elemental weaknesses.


Anyway, based on this there are several main issues to consider and a possible solution which can hopefully be figured out:
- Fights typically last less than a minute but longer than 20seconds
- This means that the second round of haste (without martyr) will typically be mostly wasted while a martyr-powered haste will be very useful
- The huge damage reduction of not having haste paired with the fact that anders' can actually still attack while martyring means that having continuous haste will be the more efficient approach in a haste-perspective
- However, for the first 20seconds of a fight it is possible to achieve double haste meaning that by casting martyr anders is missing out the full damage potential of +100%attack-speed/dps

A possible solution for an ideal anders setup could be:
- Having him setup to dish out mainly aoe/dot attacks which means that even while he is disabled by martyr he is still dishing out damage.
- Having him setup to only use martyr for the first 20seconds of the fight (up till the second haste); I think this part could potentially have play a huge difference as a third haste is next to never needed and the benefits of having uninterrupted dps will probably outweigh any benefits from faster cooldowns on basic damage spells. I'm not too sure how to set up such a thing via tactics however- I can't think of any conditions that could be linked to martyr which could achieve such an effect

- For fights shorter than 20seconds (maybe certain speed-runs) manually deactivate martyr?


This isn't quite as coherent as I had hoped, but hopefully I conveyed the general gist of my ideas and hopefully suicidal can make up some fancy tactics to optimise party overall damage.

Modifié par mr_afk, 06 juin 2011 - 05:02 .

[Apathy1989]

Has anyone beat nightmare Xebenkeck with 1.03 yet? Its even harder than before (read: impossible).

Brekker fight oddly is is easier (for me) since you can kill rogues very quickly now, and knock them out of stealth also easily.


Edit: both of these done without pulling I mean. I had to pull to beat xebenkeck in the end, there is too much damage coming in.

Modifié par Apathy1989, 06 juin 2011 - 05:08 .

[mokponobi]

Haven't test this fight yet with my 1.03 mage mostly cause I like to wait till late in act 2 to do it.

My strategy pre 1.03 was quite effective, 3 mages with 3 cold and 3 lightning staves (best for your lvl), and varric. Spirit resist runes on everyone, pre 1.03 this nullifies all damage from abominations pretty much.
Kill rage demons first, when there are none, kill Revenant next, then Xabenkeck, then abominations.

Rage demons and the Revenant are what will kill you in this fight, I stay in the room btw. So I focus on taking out the first 2 rage demons, then focus on X, if she falls great, if not, I take out the Revenant asap once he spawns then the other rage demons.

I ignore the abominations because pre 1.03. they did no damage with spirit resist runes equipped. post patch I assume they will so some damage but not enough to stun, which is a real killer.

[PillarBiter]

my main issues:

seriously: rune of valiance from 7 to 2? I mean, I know it was overpowered but how about making it +1 and stackable? In any case, it needed a ebuff, but to 2 is a bit low..
warriors are totally getting nerfed. mostly it's true, but nerfing reaver? seriously? I mean, the whole point is to weigh in risk for power? the reward is VERY much lowered and reaver ha become almost useless. at least make sacrificial frenzy a bit better or more available (less cooldown) or something.
cleave, it needed the nerf. though I dont like it much

I do want to know how berserker is now better though, I dont get it :S


and for the love of god, fix the haste bug.

Modifié par MrCry0, 06 juin 2011 - 08:03 .

[Luke Barrett]

Berserker: "Berserk now applies its bonus on base damage which means it takes advantage of additional bonuses from other abilities."

Basically this means that you're getting more bang out of your damage multiplier and other factors that get multiplied after base damage.

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I finnished my tranquility time trials for all 3 classes. Times were all slashed by a good margin.

Btw, what time did you get?
I've finally got up to tranquility with my new mage playthrough but I'm not sure if ~19seconds is good or not.
I only tried it a few times because I really need to sleep now so maybe I'll be able to cut it down some more tmr..

But yeah, the patch has made everything so much easier- Besides my warrior build <_<
Tried it out the other day and reavers now suck..at least in comparison to their god-like state pre-patch haha

[Jack-Nader]

I've finnished act I with a rogue.

Rogue Acher

Tranquility
1.02 patch - greater than 21 seconds - I never properly tested with Rogue archer.
1.03 patch - 10 seconds

Night Lies
1.02 patch = 28 seconds
1.03 patch = ~ 29 seconds

Ancient Rock Wraith
1.02 patch - 1 minute 12 seconds
1.03 patch - Less than 40 seconds


DW Rogue

Tranquility
1.02 patch = 21 seconds
1.03 patch = ~18 seconds

Act of mercy
1.02 patch = 16 seconds
1.03 patch = 15 seconds

Pirate Captains
1.02 patch = 14 seconds
1.03 patch = 12 seconds

Deep Roads Dragon
1.02 patch = 12 seconds
1.03 patch = 13 seconds ( I think 12 is still possible to reach but it is harder to attain)


I have 4 gripes so far with the 1.03 patch

1) Ogres have way to few hitpoints. 
2) The lieutenants/ assassins hitpoints have been nerfed to much.  I will have to play through the other two classes before recommending a fix here.
3) Immortal enemies.
4) Lack of party knockdowns when being struck by elite/boss characters.  Keep in mind I am running ZERO consitition increase from stock and my armor rating is also very low.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 06 juin 2011 - 09:16 .

[LilClaudy]

I finished the game with Anders rivalmanced without breaking up and Varric says everyone leaves Hawke anyway.
I even answered with the star answers, dunno why it's not working.

Is it supposed to do that?

[mr_afk]

Yeah, those are my major gripes as well (besides the utter nerfing of warriors). It just feels wrong to never experience knock-backs. I haven't come across any ogres yet but I can safely say that i've experienced my fair share of immortal undead.

I thought you and Arelex were doing mages first? But nice times!
Anyway, haven't made any vids in a while so decided to quickly whip up my tranquility run (may upload another if I get faster tmr):

[Jack-Nader]

I'm doing all 3 classes at the same time. I think Arelex is totally put off by the patch. He seems very disinterested in the game now.

[SuicidalBaby]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I'm doing all 3 classes at the same time. I think Arelex is totally put off by the patch. He seems very disinterested in the game now.

Hes not the only one. Im out.

I could go on a rant, but it would be fruitless to drone on about how gaming companies are pushing unfinished product on to loyal fans. Forcing them to pay their loyalty fee in order to beta test that company's product. I have, for the most part, defended this game while struggling to educate the masses how to not lose the inevitable war vs frustration while trying to enjoy this game.

Notice I didn't say difficulty. This game is an exercise in frustration. From the basic learnig curve of tactics to learning which tactics dont even work or even appear. There are countless insances of enemies being stunned and yet there is no "stunned" status to select as a condition. Nearest visable only works for mages, while "using magic attack" does not. Jump to tactic took a month to finally figure out that it was x-1. Nevermind the ****** poor script written for Ranged behavior. Can we say suicidal tendencies Anders? It wouldn't be so bad if the tactics were not absolutely required. But since they are absolutely required, you would think someone might have actually tested them before release.

From the unexplainable rogue invincibility to enemy mages ability to cast while invisible. From the encounter design that plays off the frustrating tactics system rather than creativity. (Whoever designed the enemy placement in Blackpowder Promise is an ass.)

I have more but this post will be summarily dismissed by BioWare/EA the moment I hit submit simply because they got my 60 bucks at release and the additional 8 when I got home for the only archer companion designed. They also got 2.5 solid months out of me beta testing their game. They made out pretty well on my gullible ass. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I certainly hope this quick buck got the company over the hump in order to complete future projects. I certainly hope those projects succeed. I certainly will not be purchasing those titles. You just lost a life long fan.

[AreleX]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I'm doing all 3 classes at the same time. I think Arelex is totally put off by the patch. He seems very disinterested in the game now.

You're correct. I really hope that this patch pleases its target audience, and if it does, I'll be happy, though it has sapped just about all my desire and will to play the game. I, however, am a very small number in a very large fanbase, and I understand that you can't please everyone.

I pretty much agree with Suicidal. I've defended this game up and down, tried incredibly hard to get people to give it a fair shake before they bash it, and have put so, so much of my free time into helping people enjoy it, so that maybe THEY didn't feel like their money was totally wasted on it, that I'm just spent. Between the patch, basically beta testing the game, the game being, let's face it, nowhere near being complete on release, and once SOMEWHAT challenging encounters being made a complete and utter joke (I killed the Ancient Rock Wraith in 20 seconds. On Nightmare. 20 SECONDS. I wasn't even excited, I was disgusted and bored), I have to force myself  to play it even more than I did before.

I'll put in the time necessary to update my guides, maybe do a few speed runs here and there, and answer questions, but as far as playing the game for MYSELF, for MY OWN enjoyment goes, that's done. I don't want this to become another disgruntled BW fan melodramatic speech, but that's how I feel. Not like it's going to affect anything anyways, I just really hope that this company gets its s**t together fast. Not just for my sake, and the sake of other fans, but for the sake of themselves, as well.

Modifié par AreleX, 06 juin 2011 - 11:36 .

[Luke Barrett]

I'm trying to get a secret difficulty put in to future titles that will be so hard you'll curse my name and have haunting dreams of its ruthlessness!

In the mean time, I feel that this re-tooling has properly set us up to do a better job with combat in the future and is an improvement to the combat overall. As much as it was harder before, that was almost exclusively due to power knockback and other things that were just difficult due to annoyance and not skill or challenge.

Modifié par Luke Barrett, 06 juin 2011 - 11:56 .

[Heather Cline]

My main gripe is they gimped the Bloodmage items that gave 1 point of health for one point of mana down to 1 point of health to .25 points of mana. They also weakened some of the stronger spells as well. Frankly it's no fun to play a mage anymore.

I haven't played DA2 in months and I probably won't play it again until DA3 if DA3 even comes out halfway completed.

I've defended the game, I've helped with posting issues in the issues part of the forum but this takes the cake. Gimping one of the best classes in the game just makes me not want to play it anymore.

They didn't gimp the mage in DA:O. Why gimp it now? It just doesn't make sense. Sorry BW but this patch sucks.

[SuicidalBaby]

Luke Barrett wrote...

I'm trying to get a secret difficulty put in to future titles that will be so hard you'll curse my name and have haunting dreams of its ruthlessness!

In the mean time, I feel that this re-tooling has properly set us up to do a better job with combat in the future and is an improvement to the combat overall. As much as it was harder before, that was almost exclusively due to power knockback and other things that were just difficult due to annoyance and not skill or challenge.

we are not laughing.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 07 juin 2011 - 12:08 .

[Luke Barrett]

Oh, I was serious. I doubt it will happen but my dream is to make the game so challenging all the hardcore folk will give up and lower the difficulty. I'm cruel like that.

[edit: I was trying to make a combo Bwhaha smiley and that's what I came up with. Perhaps writing bwahaha would have been better...]

Modifié par Luke Barrett, 07 juin 2011 - 12:10 .

[AreleX]

Luke Barrett wrote...

In the mean time, I feel that this re-tooling has properly set us up to do a better job with combat in the future and is an improvement to the combat overall. As much as it was harder before, that was almost exclusively due to power knockback and other things that were just difficult due to annoyance and not skill or challenge.

How can you say that you're fixing things that are difficult due to annoyance, and not change the fact that Assassins are invincible going into stealth? Instead, their HEALTH gets nerfed. What the hell? Their HEALTH was never the issue in the first place.

That's 'Arbitrary Difficulty' 101, and it did not get changed in the patch.

Having played all 3 classes with the patch, at various points in the game, I find it absolutely disgusting. I really , REALLY hoped I wouldn't, but I do. As I said above, I hope it's improved the game for those having trouble, because it's totally put me off playing it.

Modifié par AreleX, 07 juin 2011 - 12:15 .

[Big_Chief]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Oh, I was serious. I doubt it will happen but my dream is to make the game so challenging all the hardcore folk will give up and lower the difficulty. I'm cruel like that.

[edit: I was trying to make a combo Bwhaha smiley and that's what I came up with. Perhaps writing bwahaha would have been better...]

This would be excellent and needs to happen. I hope that you can get your overseers to agree to this. Nightmare isn't nightmarish enough anymore. I feel like a junkie, I need my fix.

[Zeevico]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

I'm trying to get a secret difficulty put in to future titles that will be so hard you'll curse my name and have haunting dreams of its ruthlessness!

In the mean time, I feel that this re-tooling has properly set us up to do a better job with combat in the future and is an improvement to the combat overall. As much as it was harder before, that was almost exclusively due to power knockback and other things that were just difficult due to annoyance and not skill or challenge.

we are not laughing.

We are picking our noses, watching the television. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated into the Borg.

This hurts you.

[Apathy1989]

Big_Chief wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

Oh, I was serious. I doubt it will happen but my dream is to make the game so challenging all the hardcore folk will give up and lower the difficulty. I'm cruel like that.

[edit: I was trying to make a combo Bwhaha smiley and that's what I came up with. Perhaps writing bwahaha would have been better...]

This would be excellent and needs to happen. I hope that you can get your overseers to agree to this. Nightmare isn't nightmarish enough anymore. I feel like a junkie, I need my fix.

Not sure how I feel about the Witcher 2's nightmare mode - it has permadeath.

On one hand it means you prepare yourself fully for every battle, and never skimp out on anything that will help you survive just to save money. On otherhand, the second I am tired or distracted, I've just lost 20 hours of gametime to permadeath.

[thendcomes]

I've been playing solo characters for the past month+ due to lack of difficulty. But I don't buy that the patch has ruined the game. Arelex, Jack, & Co. have been taking down the most difficult encounters in absurd amounts of time for awhile now, so how does shaving off an extra 5 seconds off the best time matter?

The game was rushed, everyone knew it, and the players were the volunteer beta testers for the game. However, it still took months with however many thousands of people playing and contributing to discover the secrets to the fastest speed runs, biggest damage hits, and talent/gear/attribute combinations we have now. What's to complain about that? No single player game will keep your interest forever. At some point you will effectively "beat" it to a bloody pulp where nothing can stop you. Maybe that time has come and now it's just time to move on.

Modifié par thendcomes, 07 juin 2011 - 02:31 .

[AreleX]

the patch taking what you enjoy about the game, out of the game = the patch 'ruining' the game.

you seem to misunderstand me. the point i am making is not 'wow, this game is so much easier now, it's ruined', but rather, 'wow, you nerfed a bunch of stuff i loved to 'balance' the game, make encounters more varied/challenging, and things are going even faster now, with almost LESS variance than before, so what was really the point?'.

Modifié par AreleX, 07 juin 2011 - 02:37 .

[thendcomes]

I did misunderstand. So it's not just the speed, it's the combat in general that's been dumbed down to the point where it's not enjoyable. Can't argue with that.

Like I said, I've been playing solo for a while so I haven't even noticed most of the changes. I even tried starting a mage with a full party and I got an hour in before I said "screw this" and started playing solo.

[Jack-Nader]

Bioware had a very good core concept to begin with but they broke it.

You have 3 classes, rogue, mage and warrior.  Each class is directed at a distinct part of combat interaction.  Every class should be a jack of all trades but also have a unique advantage and weakness.   The advantages/ weakness sets the stage for "necessary" party combat interaction.  Speciality classes are a good way of either reducing a weakness, exadurating an advantage or bringing something new to each class.

Mages

The mage class is party wide buffs/heals coupled with massive AOE damage.   Their disadvantage is that they are a physically weak class and they burn mana like crazy.  Balancing mana goes hand in hand with difficulty progression.  What I mean by that is for the first half of the game the character should have to work hard to increase their reserves.  By midgame they should be able to solve their mana issues either through gear, attributes or class specialisations and then enjoy the rest of the game owning face. 

Blood magic is the obvious "advantage" specialisation.  It should have been geared towards masively increasing offensive power at the expense of making the mage very physically weak.  In that respect I can fully understand why bioware nerfed all the mana to hp items, however they were completely unecessary to begin with.  Why nerf something that's already pointless?   Instead of the nerf I would have loved to see something more along the lines of Anders vengence talent for blood mages.  Something that increases potency but makes you extremely fragile.  This actually creates a need for all those mana to HP items.

Spiri healer should have been the "weakness" specialisation.  It should have been based around making your mage a tank.  I would have loved to see an option to enable casting of offensive spells late game.  That way you could combine blood magic and spirit healer and completely negate your class weakness and then go own face for the rest of the game.

Force mage is the specialty class.  Not much needs to be said about it, Bioware did a decent job here with the exception of a few lame spells.  The unshakeable talent is quite redundant now after the patch.

Rogue

Rogue is your single target instagib class.  It's advantage is pure single target DPS.  It's disadvantage is that it lacks AOE capeability and is moderately fragile.  Overall Bioware did a decent job here until they brought out 1.03.

The Duelist class really failed.  The vast majority of talents are based around attack and defense with the exception of vendetta.  Attack and defense is something that "NO" rogue ever needs.  Bioware should have turned this class into either a "speed" and "critical chance" class or given it some damaging AOE talents.

Assassin class is your answer to the elite / boss issue.  It is supposed to "instagib" elites.  That's the whole point!

Shadow class is a mixed bag for me.  I've always taken it for the passive critical damage%.  Bioware has turned this class into the mob DPS killing class as you can run around with +100% critical damage and cut through mobs like cheese.  IMO I think this is wrong.  The class should have been about "stealthy attacks" and being inconspicuous.  The critical damage should have been implimented on stealth attacks only.  Give the stealh ability a serious cooldown reduction.

Warrior

I could never handle playing warrior pre 1.03.  I don't like any class that has to constantly buff itself to own face.  It ruins the flow of the game.  Having said that, I am currently playing through the rest of act I.  The biggest issue I have with warrior isn't even class specific.  It is the elemental weapons.  Their is an obvious disparity between elemental types.  Bioware has given all the best elemental weapons to sword and shield and left two hander out.  This is also one of Arelex's primary gripes.  IMO bioware should "never" have given warriors or rogues access to elemental weapons.  It is something that should have been unique to mages .  However, it has been done and is now impossible to retract.  Bioware can still resolve this by giving two hander the same elemental weapons as sword and shield and have them accessible at the same point in the game.

I have yet to play enough of the warrior class to make any real judgement but so far it doesn't feel imbalanced.

Difficulty

Games are as difficult as the player makes them.  It only becomes biowares fault when they either purposley or indirectly make an encounter cheesy.  A perfect example of this is the Ancient Rock Wraith.  They released the warrior DLC which just so happened to be strong against it.  With patch 1.03, trespanner is now strong against it.  Ontop of that its' hitpoints were halved.   This is akin to a perfect storm.  Somehow I don't think bioware had Arelex's 20 second ancient rock wraith slaughter in mind when they put that fight together.

1.03 nerfed the crap out of Elite/ Boss ranked enemies.  These guys are "meant" to be tough.  They shouldn't be a total push over if you aren't prepaired for them.  Now we are entereing the realm of cross class combo's.  Using cross class combo's to own a fight is skill.  My 13 second deep roads dragon encounter is "skill."  It takes a hell of a lot of micro and planning to do what I did their.  It's just a shame that the rest of the game doesn't play like that.  
Most fights now have been seriously nerfed.  I agree with Luke that knockback/staggers were not skill, however those types of effects should always been restricted to elite/boss type characters.  As it stands with 1.03, absolutely nothing knocksdown or staggers.  I would really like to see the cap removed and their hitpoints restored.  I'd also love to see knockdowns/knockbacks put back on the elite/boss characters and for crying out loud, make lieutenants/mages do something other than stand in one spot waving their arms around or dropping a barrier on themselves.

* I just had a thought.  A way of fixing lieuts/bosses etc would be to give them a summon enemy or revive fallen enemy ability.  That would be nasty

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 07 juin 2011 - 03:14 .