97 réponses à ce sujet

[oldmansavage]

Good thread, its good to see someone who knows something about metallurgy, blacksmithing and fabrication.  But hey, since its magic we can make all the stupid armor we want, right?

[TEWR]

The Stonehammer Armor set seems to be a good example of what armor should look like




Is there a way that the Champion armor could've been made to hold a compromise between accurate and inaccurate? By that I mean proper metallurgy and smithing with Thedas' level of technology and with magic and enchantments?


Granted I do like the Champion armor. But I'm curious, that's all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 juin 2011 - 05:23 .

[bEVEsthda]

oldmansavage wrote...

Good thread, its good to see someone who knows something about metallurgy, blacksmithing and fabrication.  But hey, since its magic we can make all the stupid armor we want, right?

That suggestion has already been covered in this thread.
Still, I think two further valid comments would be:
Yes. But why stop there? Why not trains? Why not cars? Why not flying cars? Machineguns? Smartphones?
Obviously, magic in a fantasy world already serves the purpose to replace some high technology. Now I think one has to be very careful and selective when one considers what magic can do and what magic is used for, in a fantasy world, or it all just falls to pieces.

And, yes. But why would you want stupid armor?

[bEVEsthda]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Is there a way that the Champion armor could've been made to hold a compromise between accurate and inaccurate? By that I mean proper metallurgy and smithing with Thedas' level of technology and with magic and enchantments?


Granted I do like the Champion armor. But I'm curious, that's all.

Accuracy is not the point, I think. Believable is.
My main gripe with some DA2 armor is the thick, flat plate. This is just so unreasonable. It's clearly modern rolled steel plate stock. There is no reason for any kind of culture on a roughly medieval level to make such plate. And even if there was, it's still silly to make armor of it. Why flat and thick? Bicurved and thin is cheaper, stronger and lighter. And for a smith, hammering his steel at the forge, it would be much easier to make as well.

P.S. Basically, reshape the plates to be bicurved intead of flat. Make the edges depict rolled over thin plate, instead of a cut 3/8 inch thick edge. Maybe add some stiffening ridges here and there...

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 12 juin 2011 - 06:01 .

[Zanallen]

Honestly, I can believe that a mage would be able to use a fire spell in such a way as to mimic the effects of an acetylene torch. Plus we have dwarves who, in pretty much every rendition of lore, are regarded as blacksmiths of legendary ability. That being said, I am willing to chalk the less attention to detail up to simple lack of time. The Origins that you hold in such high esteem took five years to make. DA 2 was made in 18 months.

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...

Honestly, I can believe that a mage would be able to use a fire spell in such a way as to mimic the effects of an acetylene torch.

Yes. But the only purpose of the acetylene torch is to cut pieces from a flat, rolled steel plate stock. Where did we get that steel plate from? Magic again? Then why? Why not simply hammer your piece from a lump of steel?

Look, people can decide whatever they want for themselves. Personally I got sick of seeing people asserting that DA2 armor was so much better styled than DA:O. Personally I hate the DA2 re-styling. And I wanted to point out some things, make things visible. The change in design is, in my mind, not a matter of too little time. But of intention. Someone wanted DA2 to look this way.

There might be a practical concern, ofc. Fewer polygons for higher performance on consoles.

 

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 12 juin 2011 - 06:21 .

[Zanallen]

The DA 2 style isn't better or worse. It is different. The rest is YMMV.

[Zanallen]

As for the rest, we don't know a damn thing about how smithing works in Thedas. We just assume that it works similar to how it did during Medieval Europe on Earth because we have no evidence to the contrary. No evidence either way, I should say. All we know is that the smiths on Thedas routinely work with fantastical materials and have access to magical implements in order to craft magical weapons and armor.

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...

As for the rest, we don't know a damn thing about how smithing works in Thedas. We just assume that it works similar to how it did during Medieval Europe on Earth because we have no evidence to the contrary. No evidence either way, I should say. All we know is that the smiths on Thedas routinely work with fantastical materials and have access to magical implements in order to craft magical weapons and armor.

Again, there is a precedent. Dragon Age: Origins.

[Theagg]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The only one here nagging about "historical", "authenticity", "accuracy" etc. is you.
You clearly think you have several points here. That I'm foolish to be obsessed by such details, etc?
But I'm not. When did I ever make any such arguments? Read the thread from the beginning.

Your opening gambit is precisely to talk about historically accurate forging techniques vs what you see as inaccurate techniques in DA2

This is a matter of design. Believable design. And there is a precedent. Clear, obvious, and right in your face:
[b]Dragon Age:Origins.

Believable design ? In a game in which so much defies any rational sense of believability. and yes, I'm talking Origins.

And if your precedent is 0rigins, then don't be quoting real world source material to make your point, or as evidence. Which is what you plainly do by talking about medieval forging techniques. Here's a clue, truth be told, Dragon Age isn't set in medieval times, since thats a period of history unique to Earth. So, if you want to talk about forging techniques, refer to Thedan forging techniques and present your evidence that way as to why these things are not possible. (For example, flat plate). Likewise, tell us how you feel you can extraoplate for all of Thedas just from one part of that land (that in which Origins was set)

By contrast, DA2's armor is mindless impulses. Obviously stupid, not providing protection, glaringly different from Origins armor. No rational foundation.

Except, of course, that when Alistair turns up in DA2 for his cameo, the armour he is wearing is straight out of Origins, curves and all. So what does that imply ?

Possibly that Ferelden design differs from that of the Free Marches. As to it being obviously stupid. Again, thats subjective, especially in a universe where magical armour dominates.

Instead, it appears to be founded on some cynical appreciation of some behavioral analysis which suggests 14-y old boys get exited by  jagged, heavy plates, spikes, feathers, horns, Zip-zap instantenous combat moves. exploding bodies, and all the other 'exiting' crap DA2 art direction introduced.
I'm sorry but that's not the DA I signed up to play.

Now you are just ranting, in the typical manner which most DA2 detractors can't stop doing. Its like a stuck record.

As I said in an early post in this thread: If you don't care, then you don't care and there is nothing I can do about it. I care. And I don't mind elaborating, to make the details and aspects more visible to others.

But you do care, don't you? Otherwise why arguing your defense for DA2?
So you have this little game where you think the combat is "fun". And that is all that matters?

No, my point, which you seem to miss is that the details of the armour, down to wether or not a shoulder plate is curved or straight in a way that reflects some notion of believability, wether or not a rivet is in the right place, do not detract from my sense of enjoyment in the way that they do for you. These graphic details are not the story.

These are not the real problems with the game, problems which I do care about, nor are they problems that are particularly bad.

After all, did you ever play Baldur's Gate ? Did you enjoy that. Or did you find the graphical style so unbelievable that well, it was unplayable for you ?

Modifié par Theagg, 12 juin 2011 - 06:36 .

[Zanallen]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Again, there is a precedent. Dragon Age: Origins.

A precedent set in a different areas of Thedas that is, admitted in game, to be a backwater that is behind the times. But the real issue at hand is that there is a different artstyle between the two games and YMMV as to one's opinion on the changes. Same with the kossith, elves and darkspawn.

Of course, if we are going to tout Origins as an example of functional, believable armor design, then weneed to examine all of Origins armors. Like the light armor designs, the female versions of which all have plunging necklines. Also, let us not forget this: images.wikia.com/dragonage/images/6/64/Female_Dalish_Leather_Armor_Set.jpg

Modifié par Zanallen, 12 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[Theagg]

bEVEsthda wrote...


There might be a practical concern, ofc. Fewer polygons for higher performance on consoles.

 

And if that were the case, then just use your imagination and imagine those sections of armour are in fact curved. Like I had to imagine up curves when replaying System Shock 2 recently.

[bEVEsthda]

Theagg wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

The only one here nagging about "historical", "authenticity", "accuracy" etc. is you.
You clearly think you have several points here. That I'm foolish to be obsessed by such details, etc?
But I'm not. When did I ever make any such arguments? Read the thread from the beginning.

Your opening gambit is precisely to talk about historically accurate forging techniques vs what you see as inaccurate techniques in DA2

Not at all. I showed forging armour. Then I showed the Origin suits, pointing out details which are evidence of such forging. "historical accuracy" has nothing to do with it. Believable has. We can see for ourselves that the armor has been made by a smith in his forge. As fitting the technological level of the DA culture, visible throughout. I have nothing invested in how exactly it reflects some 13th century armor whatever.

DA2 redesign doesn't care at all about such things. Which results in that artists have been 'inspired' by completely different things, thus unwittingly also copying evidence of other familiar methods. Which is somewhat ludicrous. These methods I also showed, so that you may recognize them. (truth be told, I myself have started to doubt the casting example though. I no longer think that artist copied cast articles).

"Rant" or not, the design considerations behind DA2 are completely different from DA:O.

And your point is just to defend DA2, whatever assertions it takes. It is correct that armor design itself, alone, does not make or break a game. But now it is that armor design is discussed in this thread. And DA2 is vulnurable to these sort of attacks because it transcends a critical treshold of flaws. If DA2 had been a good game I wouldn't have bothered.
But you see: The mindset, the intentions, behind the DA2 re-design, which also affects armor models, seems to be much the reason why DA2 turned out so crappy. Sure, they didn't have much development time. But why then waste so much time to remake so many things? And for worse. There was a reason. You may call it "rant", but that reason was/is still there.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 12 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[Hel]

Dragon Age Origins had an item in the mage origin called a rod of fire, it could be used to melt through metal. So in theory metalcrafters could employ tools such as that to get the results shown in the armour designs.

My opinion is that the armours in DAII are superior to those in DA, which always struck me as being more for ceremonial purposes, what with all the ornaments on them. I personally find the Stonehammer Armour one of the best looking heavy armour designs in DAII, it just rocks!

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 12 juin 2011 - 07:22 .

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Again, there is a precedent. Dragon Age: Origins.

A precedent set in a different areas of Thedas that is, admitted in game, to be a backwater that is behind the times.
 

A backwater that has far better and more advanced armor then. I'm not attacking DA2 armor for being "advanced". On the contrary. It shows evidence of advanced methods yes, but the armor itself is silly.

But the real issue at hand is that there is a different artstyle between the two games and YMMV as to one's opinion on the changes. Same with the kossith, elves and darkspawn.

Yes, but surely an opinion can be based on something?

Of course, if we are going to tout Origins as an example of functional, believable armor design, then weneed to examine all of Origins armors. Like the light armor designs, the female versions of which all have plunging necklines.

Yes. I agree. And I actually also pointed that out in the first thread.

[oldmansavage]

bEVEsthda wrote...

oldmansavage wrote...

Good thread, its good to see someone who knows something about metallurgy, blacksmithing and fabrication.  But hey, since its magic we can make all the stupid armor we want, right?

That suggestion has already been covered in this thread.
Still, I think two further valid comments would be:
Yes. But why stop there? Why not trains? Why not cars? Why not flying cars? Machineguns? Smartphones?
Obviously, magic in a fantasy world already serves the purpose to replace some high technology. Now I think one has to be very careful and selective when one considers what magic can do and what magic is used for, in a fantasy world, or it all just falls to pieces.

And, yes. But why would you want stupid armor?

I was being a smartass.

[bEVEsthda]

oldmansavage wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

oldmansavage wrote...

Good thread, its good to see someone who knows something about metallurgy, blacksmithing and fabrication.  But hey, since its magic we can make all the stupid armor we want, right?

That suggestion has already been covered in this thread.
Still, I think two further valid comments would be:
Yes. But why stop there? Why not trains? Why not cars? Why not flying cars? Machineguns? Smartphones?
Obviously, magic in a fantasy world already serves the purpose to replace some high technology. Now I think one has to be very careful and selective when one considers what magic can do and what magic is used for, in a fantasy world, or it all just falls to pieces.

And, yes. But why would you want stupid armor?

I was being a smartass.

And I was assuming you passed the ball for me to play (considering your earlier post), so I played it.

[oldmansavage]

Damn don't even remember posting in this thread before, must be getting old.

[Theagg]

Helekanalaith wrote...

Dragon Age Origins had an item in the mage origin called a rod of fire, it could be used to melt through metal. So in theory metalcrafters could employ tools such as that to get the results shown in the armour designs.

My opinion is that the armours in DAII are superior to those in DA, which always struck me as being more for ceremonial purposes, what with all the ornaments on them. I personally find the Stonehammer Armour one of the best looking heavy armour designs in DAII, it just rocks!

ahh yes, the Thedan equivalent of a portable welding tool. I remember it well.

[Wolfborn Son]

People are complaining about armor designs in a story that was told by an unreliable narrator that consisted of numerous moments that would be right at home in the movie adaption of "300"? You might not like the designs, but under the framing of the story, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, while you might not like any of the over-the-top elements of the game, they're not out of place as the story is being told.

'sides. Nothing in DAII is as bad as the female Dalish Armor in DA:O. While its not a chainmail bikini, its still completely "style over function".

[Theagg]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

People are complaining about armor designs in a story that was told by an unreliable narrator that consisted of numerous moments that would be right at home in the movie adaption of "300"? You might not like the designs, but under the framing of the story, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, while you might not like any of the over-the-top elements of the game, they're not out of place as the story is being told.

'sides. Nothing in DAII is as bad as the female Dalish Armor in DA:O. While its not a chainmail bikini, its still completely "style over function".

Exactly. Ultimately people keep missing the point that this is Varric telling a story. With embellishments. (And thats actually the way it was too in "300", the over the top style representing the soldiers at the end of the movie, giving a larger than life retelling of how he and his comrades fought at Thermopylae)

[Melness]

Considering that:

A)The only thing we know. for certain. about thedosian technology is that qunari have gunpowder and non-qunari don't.
B)That is without even factoring in the fantasy level technology of each race, particularly dwarves and elves.
C)And THAT is without even factoring in Magic and magical materials.
D)And that the average player certainly isn't a professional blacksmith.

I think I can live with DA2's style. Even moreso since it could be much, much worse.

Not that I think your assertions are useless, OP,  (it was a fun read, actually) they just seemed like a player tracing real world parallels to oppose a change of style that does not fit his particular taste.

Modifié par Melness, 12 juin 2011 - 09:22 .

[oldmansavage]

Theagg wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

People are complaining about armor designs in a story that was told by an unreliable narrator that consisted of numerous moments that would be right at home in the movie adaption of "300"? You might not like the designs, but under the framing of the story, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, while you might not like any of the over-the-top elements of the game, they're not out of place as the story is being told.

'sides. Nothing in DAII is as bad as the female Dalish Armor in DA:O. While its not a chainmail bikini, its still completely "style over function".

Exactly. Ultimately people keep missing the point that this is Varric telling a story. With embellishments. (And thats actually the way it was too in "300", the over the top style representing the soldiers at the end of the movie, giving a larger than life retelling of how he and his comrades fought at Thermopylae)

So what you are saying is varric's narrative is an unreliable embelishment?  One that was purposefully emplemented by the DA:2 team?  I'll have to say that is certain one interesting way to explain away the flaws of DA:2 not just armor design.  One that I find to be completely hilarious.

[Theagg]

oldmansavage wrote...

Theagg wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

People are complaining about armor designs in a story that was told by an unreliable narrator that consisted of numerous moments that would be right at home in the movie adaption of "300"? You might not like the designs, but under the framing of the story, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, while you might not like any of the over-the-top elements of the game, they're not out of place as the story is being told.

'sides. Nothing in DAII is as bad as the female Dalish Armor in DA:O. While its not a chainmail bikini, its still completely "style over function".

Exactly. Ultimately people keep missing the point that this is Varric telling a story. With embellishments. (And thats actually the way it was too in "300", the over the top style representing the soldiers at the end of the movie, giving a larger than life retelling of how he and his comrades fought at Thermopylae)

So what you are saying is varric's narrative is an unreliable embelishment?  One that was purposefully emplemented by the DA:2 team?  I'll have to say that is certain one interesting way to explain away the flaws of DA:2 not just armor design.  One that I find to be completely hilarious.

No, what I am saying is that pedants with an almost unhealthy obsession of requiring "historical accuracy" and "believability" (which, of course, is a subjective thing in a genre where the laws of physics don't apply as they do here) to be present in a Fantasy game before they feel they can immerse themselves in it, perhaps should move on elsewhere.

Especially when they display selective blindness in applying the criteria of believability and their focus of this is on issues that are not that relevant to the gameplay as a whole.

From an example someone else mentioned earlier. Which of these two is more "believable". That in Thedas people design armour differently, it comes in shapes not normally seen in real world Earth and its made in ways that possibly don't reflect real world armour making techniques.

Or that Aveline, or Hawke, or even The Warden can be picked up by the jaws of a High Dragon, crushed between its jaws, tossed around rapidly, thrown up, caught and bitten and tossed again. Then slammed to the ground, all In medieval armour.

And hardly suffer for it. Do you have any idea what the forces involved in that kind of treatment would do to a human body. How quickly necks would break from the whiplash, what the rapid acceleration and decceleration would do to a persons internal organs. Never mind the crushing forces and the fall..

And yet even without a mages healing intervention, sometimes this kind of assault barely touches the 'tougher' characters.

Since the argument is over wether such armour is 'believable', or wether DA2 armour is properly functional,( ie against weapon damage ) how well do you think "believable" armour would protect its wearer from a full on High Dragon foreclaw swipe. We could do the maths to work out how much force such an impact piles into Hawke or the Warden. (making an assumption as to the mass of said limb and the swipe velocity). It would be probably like being hit by a small car doing 30mph. If not more. Crushed tin can syndrome really.

What's more 'believable' then. Slightly odd, stylised armour or High Dragon antics ? Why turn a blind eye to the latter emperical unreality, but obsess over minor subjective transgressions.

See, that is amusing.

Modifié par Theagg, 13 juin 2011 - 12:01 .

[oldmansavage]

Nice straw man, but answer the question next time.