97 réponses à ce sujet

[Oopsieoops]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

People are complaining about armor designs in a story that was told by an unreliable narrator that consisted of numerous moments that would be right at home in the movie adaption of "300"? You might not like the designs, but under the framing of the story, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, while you might not like any of the over-the-top elements of the game, they're not out of place as the story is being told.

'sides. Nothing in DAII is as bad as the female Dalish Armor in DA:O. While its not a chainmail bikini, its still completely "style over function".

The Varric cheap cop out can't even apply here since Cassandra's armor is like that as well, and those parts were outside Varric's narration. Unless of course you're suggesting he was actually narrating his narration, which would be pretty silly. Even by DAII standards.

[Zanallen]

It is a narration within a narration in a narration. *Cue Zimmer soundtrack*

[Wolfborn Son]

oldmansavage wrote...

Theagg wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

People are complaining about armor designs in a story that was told by an unreliable narrator that consisted of numerous moments that would be right at home in the movie adaption of "300"? You might not like the designs, but under the framing of the story, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, while you might not like any of the over-the-top elements of the game, they're not out of place as the story is being told.

'sides. Nothing in DAII is as bad as the female Dalish Armor in DA:O. While its not a chainmail bikini, its still completely "style over function".

Exactly. Ultimately people keep missing the point that this is Varric telling a story. With embellishments. (And thats actually the way it was too in "300", the over the top style representing the soldiers at the end of the movie, giving a larger than life retelling of how he and his comrades fought at Thermopylae)

So what you are saying is varric's narrative is an unreliable embelishment?  One that was purposefully emplemented by the DA:2 team?  I'll have to say that is certain one interesting way to explain away the flaws of DA:2 not just armor design.  One that I find to be completely hilarious.

DAII was a flawed game and while I enjoyed it for what it was, I can understand many of the problems that people have with it.  That said, I do believe that the decision to have an unreliable narrator with a passion for theatrics influenced the design, both on conscious and subconscious levels.  This does nothing to "explain away" the flaws, as they remain nonetheless, but it does give reasons for many of the complaints; the waves of enemies, the over-the-top violence, the ninja-like attacks and abilities, etc.  Hell, the marketting tagline was "fight like a Spartan"/

[Wolfborn Son]

Oopsieoops wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

People are complaining about armor designs in a story that was told by an unreliable narrator that consisted of numerous moments that would be right at home in the movie adaption of "300"? You might not like the designs, but under the framing of the story, it's perfectly acceptable. In fact, while you might not like any of the over-the-top elements of the game, they're not out of place as the story is being told.

'sides. Nothing in DAII is as bad as the female Dalish Armor in DA:O. While its not a chainmail bikini, its still completely "style over function".

The Varric cheap cop out can't even apply here since Cassandra's armor is like that as well, and those parts were outside Varric's narration. Unless of course you're suggesting he was actually narrating his narration, which would be pretty silly. Even by DAII standards.

Cassandra's armor seems pretty "normal".   It had some pretty square shoulder pads, sure... But it wasn't anything close to being as flashy as the Champion's Armor... or really any given set of massive plate in DA:O, with the overly large shoulder pads and the god-awful Dalish armor on female characters. 

[Theagg]

oldmansavage wrote...

Nice straw man, but answer the question next time.

Nope, its not a straw man (since supposedly the real subject of this post is about 'believability') and in the terms of suspending disbelief, wether or not the writers intended it that way, it can be thought of as being that way.

[Theagg]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Oopsieoops wrote...

The Varric cheap cop out can't even apply here since Cassandra's armor is like that as well, and those parts were outside Varric's narration. Unless of course you're suggesting he was actually narrating his narration, which would be pretty silly. Even by DAII standards.

Cassandra's armor seems pretty "normal".   It had some pretty square shoulder pads, sure... But it wasn't anything close to being as flashy as the Champion's Armor... or really any given set of massive plate in DA:O, with the overly large shoulder pads and the god-awful Dalish armor on female characters. 

Exactly, as illustrated right at the top of this post, the picture of Alistair in his armour , ironically used by the OP as an example of what is 'believable', of what was 'right' about Origins vs DA2 is actually unbelievable in the context of this thread. Since certainly no real plate armour ever had huge shoulder pieces like that.

So, it doesn't matter wether or not they are curved, compared to DA2's more angular armour. The armour in Origins is not 'right' either. Another example of that selective blindness applying.

Modifié par Theagg, 13 juin 2011 - 10:42 .

[Jerrybnsn]

DAII armor is ugly and impracticle. Is that the point of this thread? I'm not an armorer so I can't comment on the later, but the former I agree with.

[AAHook2]

It's really about the time put into the project. The time needed to iron out, so to speak, such details as crafting believability was simply not there.
I'm impressed actually by the poster who managed to point out in such detail, these flaws. Definitely something I'll be watching for in future.

[Wozearly]

Theagg wrote...

Nope, its not a straw man (since supposedly the real subject of this post is about 'believability') and in the terms of suspending disbelief, wether or not the writers intended it that way, it can be thought of as being that way.

The original thread was about believability relating to one aspect of the game. Arguing that on the basis that there is another aspect of the game that's more unbelievable, therefore this discussion is purposeless and irrelevant, sounds like a straw man argument to me...

On your separate point, I agree that the oversized pauldrons would be bizarre in a more real setting for anything except ceremonial decoration, as with the flared gauntlets common in DA:O. But neither are entirely purposeless.

Assuming they have been designed for defence, high pauldrons would make it far harder to make a swinging blow at an opponent's head and the two ridges on Alistair's armour on the first page would act as deflection points. Equally, the flared gauntlets would act to guide blade either away from the body if they scored along, or to at least deflect some of the power if the blade then ran onwards into the chestplate.

The downsides would be that you'd need more time and metal to make them strong and robust, making the end armour heavier and more expensive. Plus, the massive pauldrons would badly restrict field of vision on one side.

On the earlier points about it being explained by magic, my guess is that most smiths aren't magically trained or supported by mages, given that the mages are for the most part locked in the circle and its clear they're comparatively rare in number compared to your average citizen - and the dwarves, who seem to be the accepted masters of smithing, use lyrium as opposed to magic.

So even if a small number do have the ability to replicate modern technology, it seems likely that the average smith can't (the remainder of Thedas looks broadly comparable to medieval-level european technology), and so era-defying armour and weaponry would, logically, be expensive and rare...far more so than either DA:O or DA2 would indicate.

Modifié par Wozearly, 13 juin 2011 - 12:58 .

[bEVEsthda]

Theagg wrote...

No, what I am saying is that pedants with an almost unhealthy obsession of requiring "historical accuracy" and "believability" (which, of course, is a subjective thing in a genre where the laws of physics don't apply as they do here) to be present in a Fantasy game before they feel they can immerse themselves in it, perhaps should move on elsewhere.

Especially when they display selective blindness in applying the criteria of believability and their focus of this is on issues that are not that relevant to the gameplay as a whole.

From an example someone else mentioned earlier. Which of these two is more "believable". That in Thedas people design armour differently, it comes in shapes not normally seen in real world Earth and its made in ways that possibly don't reflect real world armour making techniques.

Or that Aveline, or Hawke, or even The Warden can be picked up by the jaws of a High Dragon, crushed between its jaws, tossed around rapidly, thrown up, caught and bitten and tossed again. Then slammed to the ground, all In medieval armour.

And hardly suffer for it. Do you have any idea what the forces involved in that kind of treatment would do to a human body. How quickly necks would break from the whiplash, what the rapid acceleration and decceleration would do to a persons internal organs. Never mind the crushing forces and the fall..

And yet even without a mages healing intervention, sometimes this kind of assault barely touches the 'tougher' characters.

Since the argument is over wether such armour is 'believable', or wether DA2 armour is properly functional,( ie against weapon damage ) how well do you think "believable" armour would protect its wearer from a full on High Dragon foreclaw swipe. We could do the maths to work out how much force such an impact piles into Hawke or the Warden. (making an assumption as to the mass of said limb and the swipe velocity). It would be probably like being hit by a small car doing 30mph. If not more. Crushed tin can syndrome really.

What's more 'believable' then. Slightly odd, stylised armour or High Dragon antics ? Why turn a blind eye to the latter emperical unreality, but obsess over minor subjective transgressions.

See, that is amusing.

A completely invalid post, from start to end.
It's quite clear by now that you are fighting for an agenda here. You are spending way too much time and effort to be just airing any perspective on the issue. Not to mention that mostly, you just contrieve to distort things so that you can put it in a light you intend to be ridicule.

I've never made a secret of my agenda. Isn't it time that you tell us what yours are?

[bEVEsthda]

Theagg wrote...
Exactly, as illustrated right at the top of this post, the picture of Alistair in his armour , ironically used by the OP as an example of what is 'believable', of what was 'right' about Origins vs DA2 is actually unbelievable in the context of this thread. Since certainly no real plate armour ever had huge shoulder pieces like that.

So, it doesn't matter wether or not they are curved, compared to DA2's more angular armour. The armour in Origins is not 'right' either. Another example of that selective blindness applying.

Completely wrong. There is nothing wrong about Alistairs armor.

The cute point here though, is that we have already been through this. You have already twice tried this approach and I have twice tried to explain to you. So one question that presents itself to me is: What are you up to?

Anyway, I'm going to explain again.

Nevermind that there actually are precedents for the huge shoulder pieces, it doesn't matter.

When you build a fictional world, like the Dragon Age world, there is such a thing as quality. And people perceive that. Now you and others didn't perceive anything wrong with the DA2 armor. That's alright. But some people will. Anyone that has any knowledge or experience with construction techniques will immediately recognize that some of those armors are built from cut and welded, rolled steel plate. That is just as immediately obvious, as if a diesel train engine had suddenly rolled straight through Kirkwall. And just as out of place. Maybe not quite standing out so much as a diesel engine, but very persistent since it doesn't go away.

Now, of course we can contrieve all kinds of explanations from our asses, as many have done. That's hardly a revelation. It's a world with magic and all that. And I suppose that will have to do for those playing the game.

But it doesn't quite work, because it's too obvious what has happened. Now I argue that a fictional world needs some kind of coherence, consistency. I also argue that one can get away with quite a lot. For instance, you earlier claimed that some 'bikini armor' in some game was more retarded than DA2 armor. That may be, but it doesn't automatically follow. There is a long cultural tradition of fantasy settings featuring 'bikini armor'. Just think Heavy Metal magazine and all its artists, Conan, artists like Frazetta, Vallejo, Royo. If you create a world like that, the bikini armor is right at home. It is totally 'believable'. (And that cultural setting also has real precedents, actually. Spartans, for instance, wore some armor pieces, but they didn't even wear bikinis to that.) Similarily, the welded rolled plate armor of DA2 would be quite at home in some kind of post apocalyptic SF world. Now the plate would need to be quite a good deal thinner, ofc, to make the weight manageable, but otherwise...

Now what Bioware have done, is that the original DA world was crafted carefully. There was a vision that was deeper than just the surface.
Much of that has been discarded with DA2. For a completely different vision, which is just about surface. Some say they didn't have much time. True, but why then spend so much time to change things? Which didn't need changing? In a quite successful and well loved world?

Obviously intentionally for a different vision. A much inferior vision, IMO.
Anyway, the only consideration for the design of armor is "does it look cool?". And obviously the artist have picked up the edgy plate from somewhere. From some setting totally different from a culture with mainly medieval technological level.

Styling which doesn't consider anything more than just the surface is for children. Children only appreciate the surface of things. The thing that the child find looks most exiting has to be the 'best', etc. This is not something that is wrong with the child. It's completely normal and is a phase of the brains development

There is nothing wrong with the large shoulder pieces in DA:O. This is not a specific real, historical setting. This is a fantasy world.
But there still need to be rules.
A diesel train engine doesn't fit in. And neither does 300lb armor made from rolled plate.
It's as simple as that. I also dislike a lot of other things in this new 'vision', but this thread is about a specific point. The armor.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 13 juin 2011 - 07:02 .

[Melness]

Original Poster, you obviously an more in-depht knowledge of both real-world construction techniques as well as those of Thedas. I don't, so could you explain to me how the following factors into your thesis?

A) The techniques known by the humans of Thedas (please give me an in-depht explanation and not just 'its like medieval europe, obviously')
The fantasy techniques of dalish and dwarves.
C) The fantasy techniques wielded by the arlathven elves that may have made its way into human use of today.
D) Magic.
E) Magical materials, most notably Lyrium.

Much obliged.

[bEVEsthda]

Melness wrote...

Original Poster, you obviously an more in-depht knowledge of both real-world construction techniques as well as those of Thedas. I don't, so could you explain to me how the following factors into your thesis?

A) The techniques known by the humans of Thedas (please give me an in-depht explanation and not just 'its like medieval europe, obviously')
The fantasy techniques of dalish and dwarves.
C) The fantasy techniques wielded by the arlathven elves that may have made its way into human use of today.
D) Magic.
E) Magical materials, most notably Lyrium.

Much obliged.

Nope. You tell me instead where they get the rolled plate from.

[Melness]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Melness wrote...

Original Poster, you obviously an more in-depht knowledge of both real-world construction techniques as well as those of Thedas. I don't, so could you explain to me how the following factors into your thesis?

A) The techniques known by the humans of Thedas (please give me an in-depht explanation and not just 'its like medieval europe, obviously')
The fantasy techniques of dalish and dwarves.
C) The fantasy techniques wielded by the arlathven elves that may have made its way into human use of today.
D) Magic.
E) Magical materials, most notably Lyrium.

Much obliged.

Nope. You tell me instead where they get the rolled plate from.

I don't know and, apparently, neither does you. Any and all of your conclusions are nullified due to your (or rather everyone's) lack of knowledge of thedosian forging/building techniques and what Arcane Magic can accomplish.

[bEVEsthda]

Melness wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Melness wrote...

Original Poster, you obviously an more in-depht knowledge of both real-world construction techniques as well as those of Thedas. I don't, so could you explain to me how the following factors into your thesis?

A) The techniques known by the humans of Thedas (please give me an in-depht explanation and not just 'its like medieval europe, obviously')
The fantasy techniques of dalish and dwarves.
C) The fantasy techniques wielded by the arlathven elves that may have made its way into human use of today.
D) Magic.
E) Magical materials, most notably Lyrium.

Much obliged.

Nope. You tell me instead where they get the rolled plate from.

I don't know and, apparently, neither does you. Any and all of your conclusions are nullified due to your (or rather everyone's) lack of knowledge of thedosian forging/building techniques and what Arcane Magic can accomplish.

It has been completely obvious to me, long before I even started this thread, that we can always contrieve any kind of explanations. So I'm sorry, your argument falls flat to the ground for me and anyone who understands what I'm getting at. If your point is good enough to take you through the game, then fine for you.

This is about the stylistic vision that someone has chosen to remake DA in.
And you can't nullify my opinions, nor the evidence that I have made visible to others. It's there for anyone to see. Many will be blind, but some will see. Despite your efforts to "nullify".
 Now is that infuriating for you?

[Theagg]

bEVEsthda wrote...

A completely invalid post, from start to end.
It's quite clear by now that you are fighting for an agenda here. You are spending way too much time and effort to be just airing any perspective on the issue. Not to mention that mostly, you just contrieve to distort things so that you can put it in a light you intend to be ridicule.

I've never made a secret of my agenda. Isn't it time that you tell us what yours are?

Ooo, what exactly do you think my agenda is then ?

I'd like to know too, since I don't actually have one. Well, other than observing how selectively blind people can be. It's somewhat like observing people who have friends and enemies. For their friends they excuse away ticks and other small behavioural patterns that in their enemies they inflate to aggrivating annoyances well beyond their actual size.

Such it is with those who see Origins as their friend and DA2 as their enemy.

This is about so much more than wether a shoulder plate is curved or segmented, wether an edge is rolled or cut. About what is 'believable' being the defining character of the game being good or bad. Those are actual irrelevancies in the face of what is actually on display, what your real agenda is so to speak.

"Believable" isn't where its at at all because you can't pick and choose what you want to apply in this respect. Which is what you and other slavish detractors are doing (and I'm speaking here as someone who loves Origins, just so you understand)

You can't dismiss DA2 for its unbelievable armour, because it doesn't parallel medieval European style and design. Because it lacks proper function as you put it (ie using real world historical sources ), then conveniently turn a blind eye to where Origins fails miserably to parallel other aspects of medieval European design and more importantly, functionality.

For example, many of the buildings in Denerim are functionallly inaccurate. They bear little resemblance to actual medieval architecture and would most likely collapse. Same applies to some of the structures dotted about Redcliffe.

Selective blindness see, borne out of favoritism.

And that's why I find posts like this one thoroughly unconvincing in the points they try to make. Especially when the poster still can't answer how a blacksmith would forge Volcanic Aurum.

[Melness]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Now is that infuriating for you?

If I was to be infuriated, it would be at you ignoring my request. All I asked is that you enrich an already extensive thesis with actual and in-depth knowledge of the thedosian forging techniques also including, as much as you can, about Magic and magical materials and how they can be applied in the manufacture of weapons and armor.

I'd delighted to find how and why the dwarven and elvish fantastic knowledge, as well as the lore and power of the mages, is unable to surpass 'Earth-like Medieval Technology', thereby confirming your views of the appearance of the armor models from Origins, as opposed to those of DA2.

If you cannot do that, then all I can do is thank you for an enjoyable read of an original post. But nothing more, I cannot partake into your beliefs, for I need more than a eye-based analysis of a bunch of screenshots.

Modifié par Melness, 13 juin 2011 - 07:28 .

[oldmansavage]

If we are going to bring in the goofball argument of magic can allow you to make anything as stupid as you want then why did DA:O stay in line more with traditional blacksmithing.  Do the "blacksmith mages" that inhabit kirkwall all have wacky personalities that causes them to make outlandish armor?

Honestly it just seems like people are really stretching some bull**** in order to fill in some of the wider cracks in the game.  Between magic and unreliable narrative, its really hard to argue with such delusion.

[Theagg]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Now what Bioware have done, is that the original DA world was crafted carefully. There was a vision that was deeper than just the surface.
Much of that has been discarded with DA2. For a completely different vision, which is just about surface. Some say they didn't have much time. True, but why then spend so much time to change things? Which didn't need changing? In a quite successful and well loved world?

Obviously intentionally for a different vision. A much inferior vision, IMO.
Anyway, the only consideration for the design of armor is "does it look cool?". And obviously the artist have picked up the edgy plate from somewhere. From some setting totally different from a culture with mainly medieval technological level.

Styling which doesn't consider anything more than just the surface is for children. Children only appreciate the surface of things. The thing that the child find looks most exiting has to be the 'best', etc. This is not something that is wrong with the child. It's completely normal and is a phase of the brains development

There is nothing wrong with the large shoulder pieces in DA:O. This is not a specific real, historical setting. This is a fantasy world.
But there still need to be rules.
A diesel train engine doesn't fit in. And neither does 300lb armor made from rolled plate.
It's as simple as that. I also dislike a lot of other things in this new 'vision', but this thread is about a specific point. The armor.

Uhh, Thedas is a large place, Origins dealt with a small part of it. Your claim that Origins set the style so to speak that therefore then had to apply to every game that follows is invalid.

Eurasia is a large continent, styles vary across it. The Chinese did not wear the same armour as the English for example.

As to the rules of this fantasy world. Where as these 'rules' for Thedas defined ?, you certainly can't define them from just one small chapter in the life of Thedas (ie Origins)

And again, given your grievance over DA2 armour not matching medieval technology I will again point out that the events in these games are not set in medieval times because thats a period of history unique to Earth. Sure the design parallels some of this period but the truth is Thedas is set in "the present". 

And more than that its a fantasy present, the limits of that fantasy and how it applies to daily life and technology we have not yet been fully privvy to. Certainly not in Origins.

As to the armour weighing "300lbs". Seriously....

Modifié par Theagg, 13 juin 2011 - 07:43 .

[bEVEsthda]

Theagg wrote...
You can't dismiss DA2 for its unbelievable armour,

Dismiss? I can think it's styling is crap.

because it doesn't parallel medieval European style and design. Because it lacks proper function as you put it (ie using real world historical sources ), then conveniently turn a blind eye to where Origins fails miserably to parallel other aspects of medieval European design and more importantly, functionality.

For example, many of the buildings in Denerim are functionallly inaccurate. They bear little resemblance to actual medieval architecture and would most likely collapse. Same applies to some of the structures dotted about Redcliffe.

That "because " is just you. Just your re-phrased 'because'. This is the fourth time I tell you that.

Selective blindness see, borne out of favoritism.

Oh sure. But you have no point there either. Just because I can turn a blind side to some flaws in a game that is overall good (why wouldn't I?), that doesn't require me to turn a blind side to any kind of galloping nonsens in any poor game.

Throughout this thread you haven't had one single valid argument. And you continue to contrieve things: Why would the buildings in denerim have to resemble "actual medieval architecture"? And, dam, we've been there so many times before. Why are you so stuck in your thinking?

[Theagg]

oldmansavage wrote...

If we are going to bring in the goofball argument of magic can allow you to make anything as stupid as you want then why did DA:O stay in line more with traditional blacksmithing.  Do the "blacksmith mages" that inhabit kirkwall all have wacky personalities that causes them to make outlandish armor?

Honestly it just seems like people are really stretching some bull**** in order to fill in some of the wider cracks in the game.  Between magic and unreliable narrative, its really hard to argue with such delusion.

And your fallacy seems to be that what applies in Ferelden (as regards armour desing in this case, but oh so much more as well) has to apply to the world at large. I haven't seen any convincing argument put forth as to why that should be.

[Melness]

oldmansavage wrote...

If we are going to bring in the goofball argument of magic can allow you to make anything as stupid as you want

The matter isn't that magic is capable of anything, but rather that we don't know of what magic is capable of. We also don't know to which extent magic is applied to production.

The same principle applies to Thedas. You can't say its like ''medieval Europe'', you don't know that.

Modifié par Melness, 13 juin 2011 - 07:51 .

[Theagg]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Throughout this thread you haven't had one single valid argument. And you continue to contrieve things: Why would the buildings in denerim have to resemble "actual medieval architecture"? And, dam, we've been there so many times before. Why are you so stuck in your thinking?

Your points just reek subjectivty sadly..

But on that last point.

And why would the armour in DA2 have to resemble actual medieval armour ? You haven't actually made any convincing reason why.

[bEVEsthda]

Melness wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Now is that infuriating for you?

If I was to be infuriated, it would be at you ignoring my request. All I asked is that you enrich an already extensive thesis with actual and in-depth knowledge of the thedosian forging techniques also including, as much as you can, about Magic and magical materials and how they can be applied in the manufacture of weapons and armor.

I'd delighted to find how and why the dwarven and elvish fantastic knowledge, as well as the lore and power of the mages, is unable to surpass 'Earth-like Medieval Technology', thereby confirming your views of the appearance of the armor models from Origins, as opposed to those of DA2.

Which, of course, I don't care to do, since I didn't create the game or the world. Or can't do, if you prefer that. Which you ofc knew when you asked. which means that the question never was serious. It serves a completely different purpose.

If you cannot do that, then all I can do is thank you for an enjoyable read of an original post. But nothing more, I cannot partake into your beliefs, for I need more than a eye-based analysis of a bunch of screenshots.

This is all good and fine. If you need to enjoy DA2. Goodbye.

[bEVEsthda]

Theagg wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Throughout this thread you haven't had one single valid argument. And you continue to contrieve things: Why would the buildings in denerim have to resemble "actual medieval architecture"? And, dam, we've been there so many times before. Why are you so stuck in your thinking?

Your points just reek subjectivty sadly..

But on that last point.

And why would the armour in DA2 have to resemble actual medieval armour ? You haven't actually made any convincing reason why.

It doesn't. As I have tried to tell you many times.