54 réponses à ce sujet

[Corwyn]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Architect. Simply because Arishok is not vile, not a villain. It's like saying that communists or democrats are villains.
Architect on the other hand is planning mass genocide of all living creatures because of absolutely selfish desires.

Somebody who believes in communism doesn't have to be evil but somebody who believes the rest of the world should be made communist by force if needed is a villian.  The Arishok is perfectly ok with sacking a town and killing people who have nothing to do with his problem because he wants a book.  He makes no secret that he thinks the city and all of Thedas should be forcibly converted to the Qun.

Personally I thought they were both good villians.  But I thought the Arishok was presented better, the way you get to know him and the way events kind of spiral out of control.  

[thenemesis77]

The Arcitect. This is a character they can go back to and has alot more they can do with. I still think The Arcitect is working with a band of rouge Wardens and he took "The Warden's DNA" when he had them in prison and we still don't know what all "The Arcitect" did to us. I think somthing bad will come from it and who knows, he might make a Evil clone of The " Hero of Ferelden". I know thats going way out there. I would not mind being The Warden and fighting an evil me, lol.

[Nerdage]

The Architect. Due in large part to my not understanding the Arishok's motivation for attacking the city...

"I can no longer stay and remain blind to this dysfunction"? Then go? The tome's no longer in Kirkwall, at least not if Hawke helps Isabela first, so shove off! You're failing in your duty to the Qun by letting her go while you raze the city out of... frustration? Revenge?

Also, where the Architect plotted and planned its moves and felt like it was manipulating events to it's own end, the Arishok (and Qunari in general, really) was too single-minded to be a compelling antagonist to me. To compare them to Origins, the Arishok was more like the archdemon, relatively obvious in his intent, his only real advantage was brute strength. The Architect was more like Loghain, manipulating and scheming against the player, which I prefer, not all the time, but generally.

[Icy Magebane]

Gonna go with the Arishok... as an antagonist, he managed to sway me over to his side on a couple of playthroughs, something that Loghain and the Architect never managed. I just wanted them dead, and that's a fairly simple response to what they were doing... at least the Arishok had some redeeming qualities. Loghain was just a traitor and the Architect is a darkspawn... no way in hell would I trust one of those.

[mesmerizedish]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Who do you think was a better villain, The Arishok or the Architect?

The Arishok.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

nerdage wrote...

The Architect. Due in large part to my not understanding the Arishok's motivation for attacking the city...

"I can no longer stay and remain blind to this dysfunction"? Then go? The tome's no longer in Kirkwall, at least not if Hawke helps Isabela first, so shove off! You're failing in your duty to the Qun by letting her go while you raze the city out of... frustration? Revenge?

Also, where the Architect plotted and planned its moves and felt like it was manipulating events to it's own end, the Arishok (and Qunari in general, really) was too single-minded to be a compelling antagonist to me. To compare them to Origins, the Arishok was more like the archdemon, relatively obvious in his intent, his only real advantage was brute strength. The Architect was more like Loghain, manipulating and scheming against the player, which I prefer, not all the time, but generally.

The boiling point was the Arishok being told to hand in 'fugitives' whose only crime was killing the person responsible for their sister's rape. They went to the law with the problem and the law didn't want to hear it. Then the law demands they pay for their crimes? Kirkwall was 'officially' keeping a respectful distance to the Arishok. After that event, it became open war because their beliefs weren't being respected.

Also, you knowing what happened to the book =/= the Arishok knowing what happened to it.

You also have to take into account that the Arishok is prone to be extreme about his religious beliefs. The only time he stays his hand is when he doesn't use the Viscount's son for the Qun's gain as a political tool. Petrice then murdered him.

[Rifneno]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

The boiling point was the Arishok being told to hand in 'fugitives' whose only crime was killing the person responsible for their sister's rape. They went to the law with the problem and the law didn't want to hear it. Then the law demands they pay for their crimes? Kirkwall was 'officially' keeping a respectful distance to the Arishok. After that event, it became open war because their beliefs weren't being respected.

I liked the part 15 minutes later, where he demands Hawke hand over Isabela in the same manner he refused to hand over the elves. Qunari hypocrisy at its finest.

[siubosn]

I liked the Arishok he is such a hypocrite!! LOL

[Foolsfolly]

Rifneno wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

The boiling point was the Arishok being told to hand in 'fugitives' whose only crime was killing the person responsible for their sister's rape. They went to the law with the problem and the law didn't want to hear it. Then the law demands they pay for their crimes? Kirkwall was 'officially' keeping a respectful distance to the Arishok. After that event, it became open war because their beliefs weren't being respected.

I liked the part 15 minutes later, where he demands Hawke hand over Isabela in the same manner he refused to hand over the elves. Qunari hypocrisy at its finest.

Hey!

Isabela is a known thief and pirate which we know was completely guilty in stealing the Qunari holy relic. Thus is directly responsible for the war that ensued. For this is not punished or even chastized by anyone.

The elves killed their sister's rapist because the guard refused to even investigate.

I mean, both parties demand people be turned over to them but....vigilantes > thief who starts a war.  At least in my opinion.

DA2 goes out of its way to make me dislike my companions. Isabela and Anders both made me facepalm.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Hey!

Isabela is a known thief and pirate which we know was completely guilty in stealing the Qunari holy relic. Thus is directly responsible for the war that ensued. For this is not punished or even chastized by anyone.

The elves killed their sister's rapist because the guard refused to even investigate.

I mean, both parties demand people be turned over to them but....vigilantes > thief who starts a war.  At least in my opinion.

DA2 goes out of its way to make me dislike my companions. Isabela and Anders both made me facepalm.

Isabela didn't start a war, the Arishok did. I ****** on their holy relic, like they ****** on every other culture's beliefs. As for the elves, civilized societies often require actual evidence to convict someone of a crime. I can see how such a point would be lost on mindless savages like the qunari, but it continually surprises me how many actual people in the real world think they should've hung that guard on nothing more than someone's word.

[Foolsfolly]

Isabela didn't start a war, the Arishok did.

They wouldn't even be in Kirkwall if it wasn't for Isabela. That's like saying Anders didn't start the war Meredith did.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

They wouldn't even be in Kirkwall if it wasn't for Isabela. That's like saying Anders didn't start the war Meredith did.

Meredith did start the war. They also wouldn't be in Kirkwall if Koslun has shut his self-righteous trap and never invented his cuddly version of Stalinism. Should we blame Koslun too? And they wouldn't have landed in Kirkwall if not for the storms, should we blame Poseidon? One murdering coward started killing a bunch of innocent people for something they didn't do: the Arishok.

[noxsachi]

The Architect is by far the more interesting antagonist, simply put because to this day I am unsure of whether or not my choice to spare him was the correct one. I don't know how deep the levels of his deception go, while the Arishok is a very upfront character about what he is. He isn't deep, he yells what he is from the very first meeting so there's no discovery, there's no appeal to trust him. I'd never help the Arishok the way I helped the Architect, and in that mind the Architect is a better antagonist for that.

[JoHnDoE14]

 I agree with eveything you say, but how does this not make the Architect a good example of a Villain? I , for one, think that the Architect was better despite having less screen time. He had this strange and eerie aura...However, both were great villiains! An amazing voice and actual goals that happen not to be 'I will rule teh world ZOMG'.

Modifié par JoHnDoE14, 06 juin 2011 - 08:11 .

[Mickespel]

The Architect is better, he has his own ideas, the Arishok is just another fanatic and shows why the Qunari are doomed in the end, they are unable to reform on their own. It boils down to "The Qun demands", if you are just processing pre chewn thoughts rather then thinking yourself you are not going to make it in the long run. I believe the ideal state are a healthy balance between order and chaos, both extremes are just as bad.

[Original Panther Swift]

Guys, under my game achievements I see that Earning the respect of an important adversary is not highlighted and I was wondering if the Arishock is this adversary I need to earn the respect from. My dialog has mostly been harsh with him maybe I am not letting myself be intimidated enough?

[dragonflight288]

Yes, the achievement is earning his respect. You do this if you are upfront and honest with him throughout the entire game. You tell him Isabella stole the tome, you can let him know about his missing delegates, and by the end of act 2, that gets you the achievement.

The Arishok does make for an excellent antagonist in what he represents as a threat to ALL Thedas. Especially since he and Sten both made it clear that the Qunari will invade again. The Arishok and the Qunari in Kirkwall didn't show up to invade, but they managed to borderline conquer the city despite showing up not prepared for a war.

[Huntress]

Darkspawn kills everything that is around them, grass, people even the soil, you can't reason with him/them because he/them just want to be treated as "equal", and he/them can not be seen as equal when their mere presence, is a threat to life itself.
Humans needs food, you can't be friend with something that poison and kills what you need to survive or worse something that sees you as food.

The arishock is humanoid, he has different views of what freedom means to him/them.
I believe that they turn the prisioners into tranquils if the prisioners try to escape, and the prisioners do not need to be mages themself.
They the Qun/Arishock want everything to fit by controlling this peoples lifes, by force or by assimilation.

The bigger threat to me as a living being is the darkspawn, you will die of hunger/females turn into monsters to make more of them or be eaten by them, on the other hand you can fight the qun for the right to free, I'll rather take my chances with the Qun.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

Rifneno wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

The boiling point was the Arishok being told to hand in 'fugitives' whose only crime was killing the person responsible for their sister's rape. They went to the law with the problem and the law didn't want to hear it. Then the law demands they pay for their crimes? Kirkwall was 'officially' keeping a respectful distance to the Arishok. After that event, it became open war because their beliefs weren't being respected.

I liked the part 15 minutes later, where he demands Hawke hand over Isabela in the same manner he refused to hand over the elves. Qunari hypocrisy at its finest.

Not the same. Isabela is a known criminal. The 'fugitives' went to the guard, the proper authorities, once they found out about the rape but no one did anything.

Isabela? They knew she stole it. She hid that fact from Hawke for 3 years and is directly responsible for the Qunari being there.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

Rifneno wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

They wouldn't even be in Kirkwall if it wasn't for Isabela. That's like saying Anders didn't start the war Meredith did.

Meredith did start the war. They also wouldn't be in Kirkwall if Koslun has shut his self-righteous trap and never invented his cuddly version of Stalinism. Should we blame Koslun too? And they wouldn't have landed in Kirkwall if not for the storms, should we blame Poseidon? One murdering coward started killing a bunch of innocent people for something they didn't do: the Arishok.

He had his men attack the guards because Aveline was stupid enough to demand it. The guard were in the wrong to demand they be tried for crimes when the rapist wasn't even tried because it had been an elf that was raped.

The Arishok stated several times, he hated Kirkwall's laws for being so broken and dysfunctional. That's why he attacked.

[Barkortran]

Architect hands down.

The mystery he creates the amoral motive the tough decision over weather to spare him. the Architect is a better villain because he is unique. he is trying to do the right thing about the people he cares about and that puts him at odds with you. you can understand him and understand why you must fight him.

He is less "evil" (although neither really are just strong views that conflict yours) but much mor human and realistic.

Oh and he isnt a repcon....(bloody horns)

[sphinxess]

Architect totally. You can't predict what crazy thing he will do next <one reason I let him live> as compared to a follower of the Qun where it doesn't matter how intelligent he is - he will always go down the same path as the qun dictates.

As a side note: why do so many believe the Elves are 100% <no question about it> telling the truth when they run to the Arishok and quickly convert? These are Avaline's guards after all - she has had enough time to reform them. Never saw any sign Avaline hates Elves or wouldn't raise holy heck if she found guards covering for a rape. She tells Hawke she has heard a rumor is all.

Modifié par sphinxess, 13 juin 2011 - 06:57 .

[JosieJ]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

The boiling point was the Arishok being told to hand in 'fugitives' whose only crime was killing the person responsible for their sister's rape. They went to the law with the problem and the law didn't want to hear it. Then the law demands they pay for their crimes? Kirkwall was 'officially' keeping a respectful distance to the Arishok. After that event, it became open war because their beliefs weren't being respected.

I liked the part 15 minutes later, where he demands Hawke hand over Isabela in the same manner he refused to hand over the elves. Qunari hypocrisy at its finest.

Not the same. Isabela is a known criminal. The 'fugitives' went to the guard, the proper authorities, once they found out about the rape but no one did anything.

Isabela? They knew she stole it. She hid that fact from Hawke for 3 years and is directly responsible for the Qunari being there.

Remember, that's why she was being chased by the Qunari dreadnaught, and both ended up stranded in Kirkwall.

The Arishok probably wouldn't have cared less about the elves had they not become viddathari--after that, they were "of the Qun," and the Arishok's duty was to protect them.  He had no such duty to Isabela--just the opposite, he had a duty to bring her to face punishment for her insult to the Qun.  That's why I don't consider him a hypocrite for demanding Isabela.

However, I consider the Architect the better antagonist.  The darkspawn are totally incompatible with human life as it currently exists in Thedas, and humans would essentially have to be turned into ghouls to co-exist with them.  I still can't figure out whether the Architect knew this, and was just spouting platitudes about darkspawn and humans co-existing, or whether he truly thought his solution was the best for both races.  Either way, he's either evilly manipulative or dangerously ignorant.    The Arishok is dangerous, but straightforward and predictable, and therefore not difficult to defeat.