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[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The mages stand to gain least of all. If the mages pursue this war, they will merely prove why the Chantry has been considering them so severe a threat. They will never find an equal place with the commoners. The only thing the mages stand to gain, is perhaps some sort of twisted moral victory. Good luck have that feed you during the winter.

I was also only speaking of the involved participants. The Qunari stands to gain it all, without even having used any resources. Tevinter won't gain anyhting from this. They are already busy trying to keep the Qunari back, and with the rest of Thedas weakened, they won't have any support for when the Qunari attack again.

The argument stands.

No your arguments are invalid. The mages dont need the commoners the commoners however need the mages for the spawn the tevinter imperium or qunari and thats something that will happen in time and they will reject the chantry when they realise that chantry cannot protect them.,

And the tevinter imperium is not holding the qunari back but they are just having a stalemate. And furrthemore the tevinter imperium doesnt rely on the other nations to hold the qunari back they never had to but i doubt that they wouldnt take advantage of the situation and try to take over nevarra. Anderfelds is not logical as being a poor ****hole.

Oh, the mages don't need the commoners now don't they? Let us just see for how long the amges can run a nation without a population then. And the amges certainly aren't numerous enough to hold back the QUnari on their own. They will need soldiers aswell. The mages need commoners more than you appear to realize.

Also, there is no stalemate. The Qunari simply aren't attacking. If they did, they would take all of Thedas. Tevinter is trying to regain the territory they have lost to the Qunari, even though it is futile, and if they were to exhaust military power in trying to conquer anywhere else, it would simply make the Qunaris' task easier when the time comes. And they did rely on the other nations during the Qunari wars, even if they didn't coordinate with them. During the Qunari wars the Qunari took all of Tevinter's major cities, with the exception of Minrathous which was besieged more or less constantly for the duration of the wars. Only because of the pressure from the other nations did the Qunari retreat from Tevinter territory.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Exactly. Only when it is gone will you ever see if it worked or not. Now with mage freedom on the horizon, we will truly see who was right and who was wrong.
On a side note: There are lots of evidence in the game that says the Circles keep the commoners save from Abominations. Pretty much every single codex entry we got about Templars, mages and demons, shows us how they combat those threats, and keep the people safe.

The problem is that people have decried the Circle system as a failure based on the misteps that have been made, while not acknowledging that the Circle can very well have saved many more lives than have been lost.

It is a failure otherwise you would not have a worldwar . But in previous discussion you where the one to dismiss a secular antimagic army controlled by the mages or state. The current system is a not a good one and in dire need of improvement. I dont see why you dont wish it improved.

There are simpler ways to improve a system, than start a world war you know...

My friend you need to learn that the chantry is al about power.The current circle cannot be improved without a good deal  of secualarism , information and knowledge. That means to improve the circle you would have templars who are trained without religous bull**** and focus more on knowledge and facts.. you would even need bloodmages as they are very good at recognising demons. Also more studie  of demons and possession. Anyway all these things would weaken the chantry

so to sum up:

Can the circle system be improved ? yes. Would the chantry lose power if the system was improved? yes . So would they allow. no!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually the Chantry could simply improve on the internal affair offices of the Templar Order, and it would do much to relieve the tensions between mage and Templar.

However you would need to show the Chantry that their treatment, or just that the Templars' treatment (in some cases) was unacceptable to go unpunished. You don't need to start a war for that.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The mages stand to gain least of all. If the mages pursue this war, they will merely prove why the Chantry has been considering them so severe a threat. They will never find an equal place with the commoners. The only thing the mages stand to gain, is perhaps some sort of twisted moral victory. Good luck have that feed you during the winter.

I was also only speaking of the involved participants. The Qunari stands to gain it all, without even having used any resources. Tevinter won't gain anyhting from this. They are already busy trying to keep the Qunari back, and with the rest of Thedas weakened, they won't have any support for when the Qunari attack again.

The argument stands.

No your arguments are invalid. The mages dont need the commoners the commoners however need the mages for the spawn the tevinter imperium or qunari and thats something that will happen in time and they will reject the chantry when they realise that chantry cannot protect them.,

And the tevinter imperium is not holding the qunari back but they are just having a stalemate. And furrthemore the tevinter imperium doesnt rely on the other nations to hold the qunari back they never had to but i doubt that they wouldnt take advantage of the situation and try to take over nevarra. Anderfelds is not logical as being a poor ****hole.

Oh, the mages don't need the commoners now don't they? Let us just see for how long the amges can run a nation without a population then. And the amges certainly aren't numerous enough to hold back the QUnari on their own. They will need soldiers aswell. The mages need commoners more than you appear to realize.

Also, there is no stalemate. The Qunari simply aren't attacking. If they did, they would take all of Thedas. Tevinter is trying to regain the territory they have lost to the Qunari, even though it is futile, and if they were to exhaust military power in trying to conquer anywhere else, it would simply make the Qunaris' task easier when the time comes. And they did rely on the other nations during the Qunari wars, even if they didn't coordinate with them. During the Qunari wars the Qunari took all of Tevinter's major cities, with the exception of Minrathous which was besieged more or less constantly for the duration of the wars. Only because of the pressure from the other nations did the Qunari retreat from Tevinter territory.

First problem is that you assume mages need a nation. they may as well ****** of to the tevinter imperium or seclude themselves. Furthermore we dont know the current state of the qunari or the tevinter imperium so i will not go into that further but from the codexes we find i get the impression that the the tevinter is still able to launch military attacks . But the tevinter imperium kicked the qunari out on their own strenght while the rest of the thedas nations hwere still bumbling around in antiva and the free marches,

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Chantry could simply improve on the internal affair offices of the Templar Order, and it would do much to relieve the tensions between mage and Templar.

However you would need to show the Chantry that their treatment, or just that the Templars' treatment (in some cases) was unacceptable to go unpunished. You don't need to start a war for that.

The chantry has never showed the willingness nor the desire to change how their Templars work, or even that they be given any real oversight.  In fact the Chantry's posiiton seems to be "out of sight and out of mind" at best.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Since the Chantry is trying to prevent the war, I'd say they show a willingness to find a peaceful solution.

The only thing I see the Chantry show is a determination to hold the status quo at all costs. 

We couldn't even get Elthina to hold the Templars to the laws that already do exist to protect the mages.  Not a lot of impetus for reform going on there.  So either the mages suck it up or try to change it.  I'm not at all saying that war is a great thing and everyone should try one, but the alternative in Thedas for mages is pretty bleak also.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Chantry could simply improve on the internal affair offices of the Templar Order, and it would do much to relieve the tensions between mage and Templar.

However you would need to show the Chantry that their treatment, or just that the Templars' treatment (in some cases) was unacceptable to go unpunished. You don't need to start a war for that.

**** the chantry. as  i said this is all about power and they will still kill the mages if they are deemed a threat to the chantry. this has nothing to do with decent internal affairs .This a corrupt and tyrannical system that needs to be completely annilated for the benefit for every one involved even for the commoners .

[EmperorSahlertz]

We have Fenris who've ahd first hand experience with the Qunari, and he very clearly states that if the Qunari wanted, they could take any nation in Thedas. They are the superpower of this setting, and they far outstrips the rest of Thedas in sheer power. What they do not have, is numbers, which is probably why they havn't attacked again yet. They are still building their power.

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Chantry could simply improve on the internal affair offices of the Templar Order, and it would do much to relieve the tensions between mage and Templar.

However you would need to show the Chantry that their treatment, or just that the Templars' treatment (in some cases) was unacceptable to go unpunished. You don't need to start a war for that.

The chantry has never showed the willingness nor the desire to change how their Templars work, or even that they be given any real oversight.  In fact the Chantry's posiiton seems to be "out of sight and out of mind" at best.

-Polaris

That is because they havn't had a reason to. As I said, the mages should've shown the Chantry that change was needed. Starting a war over it, is going too far, and counter-productive.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Chantry could simply improve on the internal affair offices of the Templar Order, and it would do much to relieve the tensions between mage and Templar.

However you would need to show the Chantry that their treatment, or just that the Templars' treatment (in some cases) was unacceptable to go unpunished. You don't need to start a war for that.

**** the chantry. as  i said this is all about power and they will still kill the mages if they are deemed a threat to the chantry. this has nothing to do with decent internal affairs .This a corrupt and tyrannical system that needs to be completely annilated for the benefit for every one involved even for the commoners .

So that someone else can claim the same power and let the cycle start again, just udner a new name, like government or coorporations?

Everything is about getting power and keeping it. You are naïve if you think removing the Chantry will change that.  At least the Chantry also have charities and educational values. I doubt anything replacing it would be as "bountiful".

[ddv.rsa]

Fenris has an opinion, it isn't necessarily correct. The qunari have been battling Tevinter for centuries. What are they building up that takes that several lifetimes to prepare? Soldiers grow old and die, weapons and armour rust, even warships become unserviceable. You can't spend that long building resources.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They are increasing their numbers, and if any military equipment actually rusts it is because of neglect. We have swords from the 15th century which are still in perfect condition this day, becasue they have been treated properly. That is older than the Qunari have been preparing in Thedas.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is because they havn't had a reason to. As I said, the mages should've shown the Chantry that change was needed. Starting a war over it, is going too far, and counter-productive.

Mages through the ages (and others) have tried.  The latest attempt was at Cumberland where a vote to declare indepedance apparently only (narrowly) failed.  Then you had Uldred which could be laid at least partially at the feet of the Chantry, and the same with Conner.  Then there is the "New Exalted Marches" and a Chantry inspired "holy slaying" of Rivanni Qun converts so horrific it tore the veil.

Then there is Kirkwall with a long history of unusually high rates of possession, bloodmagic, and failed harrowings.  You have incontravertable evidence (presented to the Grand Cleric no less) that at least some Templars are grossly abusing their station for personal pleasure/gain (Alrik), but the Chantry (see Faith and Lelianna) either doesn't want to or doesn't care to do any sort of careful internal policing or self-examination.

At some point, you lose all options BUT the violent one.

-Polaris

[sphinxess]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are increasing their numbers, and if any military equipment actually rusts it is because of neglect. We have swords from the 15th century which are still in perfect condition this day, becasue they have been treated properly. That is older than the Qunari have been preparing in Thedas.

Both sides advance though - the game hints the gunpowder secret is now known to the Tevinter.

[dragonflight288]

They are increasing their numbers, and if any military equipment actually rusts it is because of neglect. We have swords from the 15th century which are still in perfect condition this day, becasue they have been treated properly. That is older than the Qunari have been preparing in Thedas.

Oh yes, Sten showed how his sword would be regarded in the hands of another in the Qunari people. Forged for his hand alone, having any blade other than that one casts him as a deserter and he will be killed on sight. Great system for building up numbers and equipment there.

So that someone else can claim the same power and let the cycle start again, just udner a new name, like government or coorporations?

Everything is about getting power and keeping it. You are naïve if you think removing the Chantry will change that. At least the Chantry also have charities and educational values. I doubt anything replacing it would be as "bountiful".

Uh huh....the chantry took care of those orphans that a Fereldan mage, who turned herself into the circle rather than be an apostate...wait, no they didn't. They left the orphans to rot in darktown. Oh I'm sure the chantry may let orphans make their own choices growing up....wait, Alistair was practically being forced to become a Templar, no choice on his part, until his conscription....

Maybe the chantry is understanding of other cultures...wait, they contemplate an exalted march on the dwarves should an independent circle of magi be built there, and thereby lose the lyrium trade that keeps the templars in line.

At least the templars can choose to leave the order...wait, they're addicted to the lyrium so....

Exactly what has the chantry done that has been entirely selfless? Nothing.

[GavrielKay]

IanPolaris wrote...
At some point, you lose all options BUT the violent one.
-Polaris

I don't have much issue with the folks who say Anders personally isn't fit to lead this rebellion, but I really do agree that a violent rebellion is the only way the Chantry will be forced to change anything.

There is simply no reason to think the Chantry elite would willingly give up their dominance.

[dragonflight288]

They won't. No one with power that long would ever be willing to give up any power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They are increasing their numbers, and if any military equipment actually rusts it is because of neglect. We have swords from the 15th century which are still in perfect condition this day, becasue they have been treated properly. That is older than the Qunari have been preparing in Thedas.

Oh yes, Sten showed how his sword would be regarded in the hands of another in the Qunari people. Forged for his hand alone, having any blade other than that one casts him as a deserter and he will be killed on sight. Great system for building up numbers and equipment there.

So that someone else can claim the same power and let the cycle start again, just udner a new name, like government or coorporations?

Everything is about getting power and keeping it. You are naïve if you think removing the Chantry will change that. At least the Chantry also have charities and educational values. I doubt anything replacing it would be as "bountiful".

Uh huh....the chantry took care of those orphans that a Fereldan mage, who turned herself into the circle rather than be an apostate...wait, no they didn't. They left the orphans to rot in darktown. Oh I'm sure the chantry may let orphans make their own choices growing up....wait, Alistair was practically being forced to become a Templar, no choice on his part, until his conscription....

Maybe the chantry is understanding of other cultures...wait, they contemplate an exalted march on the dwarves should an independent circle of magi be built there, and thereby lose the lyrium trade that keeps the templars in line.

At least the templars can choose to leave the order...wait, they're addicted to the lyrium so....

Exactly what has the chantry done that has been entirely selfless? Nothing.

You realize that Kirkwall was filled to bursting with refugees, and that it was the Circle, not the Chantry, which refused to aid the children, right? Tell me you did enough research. It was the Circle who didn't want to aid the children, by hiring them as servants or some such probably, and the Chantry was already busy trying to aid as many refugees as possible.

[dragonflight288]

And the circle is regulated by the chantry and overseen by the templars. Mages are being locked in the cells, made tranquil for the slightest transgressions. Oh yes, Kirkwall was a prime example of civil justice for everyone in the city. Not just the refugees, mages, templars, etc....

[sphinxess]

The circle has money of its own? This is news to me - even the tranquel I thought were a source of income for the Chantry <the items they make>

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You realize that Kirkwall was filled to bursting with refugees, and that it was the Circle, not the Chantry, which refused to aid the children, right? Tell me you did enough research. It was the Circle who didn't want to aid the children, by hiring them as servants or some such probably, and the Chantry was already busy trying to aid as many refugees as possible.

I don't recall this part of the storyline...  but how does it make sense for the Chantry to insist that mages have to be segregated for the protection of the communities they might otherwise have chosen to live in and then, offer to house children there as servants etc?

[ddv.rsa]

As far as I know the Circle is fairly free in its finances. For example, in DA2 we saw that the First Enchanter decides how much the Tranquil sell their goods for. If he's free to do that he's probably got some say in how the money is spent.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Apparently the Kirkwall circle have housemaids at least, since Anders was using one for communicating with Karl. I'd assume that the Circles have a normal noblehouse staff. Like servants, chefs and stableboys.

And the Circle handle their own finances. They do however buy their lyrium from the Chantry who acts as broker of the stuff from Orzammar. At least that is how I understood it.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Apparently the Kirkwall circle have housemaids at least, since Anders was using one for communicating with Karl. I'd assume that the Circles have a normal noblehouse staff. Like servants, chefs and stableboys.

Yes, they are called tranquil.  What tripped Anders and Karl up was they assumed the Templars wouldn't read Karl's mail (which is not the practice in Fereldan).

And the Circle handle their own finances. They do however buy their lyrium from the Chantry who acts as broker of the stuff from Orzammar. At least that is how I understood it.

Actually the Fomori seem to handle finances as well directly under the authority of the First Enchanter.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

I doubt Anders would call a tranquil a "housemaid". But certainly Tranquil could fit within the role well enough.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I doubt Anders would call a tranquil a "housemaid". But certainly Tranquil could fit within the role well enough.

It's not very far fetched if that's the role the Tranquil was fulfilling.  Really it makes more sense to use Tranquil for the purpose than ordinary folks - or the whole keeping mages separate because they are dangerous thing falls apart.