276 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

The dwarves are down there, they are bound by their traditions. Their traditions won't allow them to leave for the surface, otherwise they are no longer dwarves. If you're a miner, you remain a miner your whole life. And if a lyrium vein goes thin then you have to mine elsewhere. And soon you have to expand again, and again, and again. The deep roads cover ALL of Thedas, and that was the extent of the old Dwarven empire.

If the Tevinters wanted to come down at the height of the Dwarven Empire, and they're bringing hundreds of slaves....that may look like an invasion. So, that theory is less plausible than the dwarves accidentally burrowing down to the darkspawn.

[Gamer Ftw]

Or perhaps it was just a fight between the maker and the old gods where the maker grew jealous of the people of thedas worshipping other gods. then he had a jealous hissy fit and the magisters got blamed.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 04 juin 2011 - 03:03 .

[Sajuro]

I simply take it as a myth as to how the darkspawn were created since we have no way of knowing.

[The Baconer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In the words of one of my college professors "Originality and Cliche are synonyms. Only with originality, you hide your sources."

Thought that was pretty witty. And origins was pretty original having elves being second-class citizens or slaves depending on the country, rather than masters of the wooded empire, immortal, agesless and wise. In Origins they barely know their own history and culture.

And there are dwarves without beards.

Of course. The codex and background lore is where DA draws it's originality and depth, it's only the player's task at hand that I found cliche.

Modifié par The Baconer, 04 juin 2011 - 03:33 .

[Plaintiff]

I wouldn't call it "lying". Andraste and the birth of the Darkspawn both occurred centuries ago at least. The Chantry probably doesn't know the truth.

However the Darkspawn came about, it must have been an act of spontaneous, deliberate (or accidental) creation through magic or some sort of experimentation. There is absolutely no question of them having evolved naturally. The only way they can breed is by capturing females of other species and turning them into Broodmothers. That is not a trait they could have evolved, no species would survive that way.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 juin 2011 - 03:43 .

[Satyricon331]

The Chant talks about the tale as the "second sin," so they ostensibly know b/c Andraste (iirc) laid it down in the Chant.

In my view though, if the Magisters invaded the Golden City, and came out as darkspawn, how would anyone know what happened up there? It seems like it would be terrific propaganda for Andraste & her followers to tell everyone that it was because the magisters were sinful and that sinfulness offended the Maker, especially if there were no other prevalent explanation.

"The Maker told me my enemies are evil!!1!" Oh! Ok then, Andraste.

[Rifneno]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to promote the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory.

And yes, I'm serious.  Check the timelines.  The "Maker's chosen" with her superpowers shows up 26 years after the most powerful archdemon was slain.  As coincidences go, that one's a grand slam.  Andraste is the Dumat OGB.  Which ironically means Andraste is likely the creator of blood magic.  Lulz? 

[Kaiser Shepard]

It's not so much a case of the Chantry contemporary lying, but rather having been lied to and then (having embraced the version of the story they know) spreading those lies.

"The Maker" is obviously just a mantle of Fen'Harel, the only remaining of the Elvhen and Old Gods.

[Plaintiff]

Rifneno wrote...

I'd just like to take this opportunity to promote the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory.

And yes, I'm serious.  Check the timelines.  The "Maker's chosen" with her superpowers shows up 26 years after the most powerful archdemon was slain.  As coincidences go, that one's a grand slam.  Andraste is the Dumat OGB.  Which ironically means Andraste is likely the creator of blood magic.  Lulz? 

It's a pretty sweet theory, and plausible. Just one teeny-tiny problem, though:

If the Dark Ritual had been performed prior to the slaying of Dumat, the Grey Warden who killed him would've survived. Of course, he may well have, there's no way of knowing if he did or not, since it's not mentioned. But if he did, then why is it that the Grey Warden Order assumes that death is an inevitable factor in the slaying of an archdemon?

[Iakus]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I don't think mages are as are constantly at risk of being possessed.

Interesting idea.  But given how many places there are where the Veil is thin (Kirkwall, Soldier's Peak, Blackmarsh, Brecilian Forest, possibly the Lake Calenhad Circle Tower) I wonder if the Veil in general is growing thin, and the risk is increasing everywhere? 

I don't think magister's really started the blight.

I suspect they were involved somehow.  But the truth is likely a lot more complicated than anyone suspects.  The Chantry simply spreads the story as they understand it.

I believe Andraste was a mage and they covered it up.
discuss.

Entirely possible.  Tevinter really gave mages a bad name.

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'd just like to take this opportunity to promote the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory.

And yes, I'm serious.  Check the timelines.  The "Maker's chosen" with her superpowers shows up 26 years after the most powerful archdemon was slain.  As coincidences go, that one's a grand slam.  Andraste is the Dumat OGB.  Which ironically means Andraste is likely the creator of blood magic.  Lulz? 

It's a pretty sweet theory, and plausible. Just one teeny-tiny problem, though:

If the Dark Ritual had been performed prior to the slaying of Dumat, the Grey Warden who killed him would've survived. Of course, he may well have, there's no way of knowing if he did or not, since it's not mentioned. But if he did, then why is it that the Grey Warden Order assumes that death is an inevitable factor in the slaying of an archdemon?

Hell, we don't even know the name of the GW who slew Dumat.  There's any number of reasons such an ancient bit of knowledge would be lost in time.  The dwarves are clueless about the Primordial Thaig and that's a much bigger bit of history to just lose.

[Satyricon331]

I don't necessarily subscribe to Rifneno's theory, but one explanation might be that the Warden died while killing the Archdemon anyway, say from injuries, and that it happened quickly enough that later people never noted a discrepancy from the later blights if the info survived for a blight or two.

[Plaintiff]

Rifneno wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'd just like to take this opportunity to promote the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory.

And yes, I'm serious.  Check the timelines.  The "Maker's chosen" with her superpowers shows up 26 years after the most powerful archdemon was slain.  As coincidences go, that one's a grand slam.  Andraste is the Dumat OGB.  Which ironically means Andraste is likely the creator of blood magic.  Lulz? 

It's a pretty sweet theory, and plausible. Just one teeny-tiny problem, though:

If the Dark Ritual had been performed prior to the slaying of Dumat, the Grey Warden who killed him would've survived. Of course, he may well have, there's no way of knowing if he did or not, since it's not mentioned. But if he did, then why is it that the Grey Warden Order assumes that death is an inevitable factor in the slaying of an archdemon?

Hell, we don't even know the name of the GW who slew Dumat.  There's any number of reasons such an ancient bit of knowledge would be lost in time.  The dwarves are clueless about the Primordial Thaig and that's a much bigger bit of history to just lose.

Oh, no doubt. I was just wondering if you had a specific scenario in mind. It just seems odd to me that the Grey Warden order would know how to slay an archdemon forever and why it works, but they would just forget that "Oh, guess what, not only do you not have to die, you can also get laid into the bargain."

I mean, that's some pretty pertinent information right there. if I was the First Warden, every battle against an Archdemon would be preceded by an epic magical gangbang over at Weisshaupt.

[IanPolaris]

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh, no doubt. I was just wondering if you had a specific scenario in mind. It just seems odd to me that the Grey Warden order would know how to slay an archdemon forever and why it works, but they would just forget that "Oh, guess what, not only do you not have to die, you can also get laid into the bargain."

I mean, that's some pretty pertinent information right there. if I was the First Warden, every battle against an Archdemon would be preceded by an epic magical gangbang over at Weisshaupt.

Not necessarily.  The mechanics of how the Grey Warden Lore from the first Anderfel Deserters who fought killed Dumat to the second generation of Grey Wardens is maddenly vague and somewhat contradictory.  We are told that all those who originally abandoned thier vows to fight Dumat eventually were killed by him but not before they found a way to permanently kill Dumat.....but that all seems a bit too 'simple' and 'neat'.

What if a powerful agency (presumably someone had to learn and teach the ritual for this Supposed Dumat OGB) didn't want any of the other Old Gods to survive!  This would make perfect sense if the "Maker" were realy Fen'dar'el or something like that....and it would even make sense if Dumat even when imprisoned could sense this coming and taught a priestess/mage the OGB ritual for exactly this sort of emergency.  I could easily see Dumat setting up the other old gods to be killed by Grey Wardens by not telling them the whole truth.

As for the Origin of the Darkspawn, I think the first Darkspawn were corrupted Dwarves probably by the same sort of idol/tained Lyrium that the Primeaval Thaig was or something very much like it.  I could easily see the Magisters being involved in their dark (and ultimately corrupting) research, but only second hand.

In short, I think "Andraste" slimed the Magisters with the Darkspawn origin tale knowing full well that there was no one that could dispute the story....

-Polaris

[Shimmer_Gloom]

"Every battle against an Archdemon would be preceded by an epic magical gangbang over at Weisshaupt."

I have nothing important to say. I just wanted to see those words again.

[ReiSilver]

IanPolaris wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh, no doubt. I was just wondering if you had a specific scenario in mind. It just seems odd to me that the Grey Warden order would know how to slay an archdemon forever and why it works, but they would just forget that "Oh, guess what, not only do you not have to die, you can also get laid into the bargain."

I mean, that's some pretty pertinent information right there. if I was the First Warden, every battle against an Archdemon would be preceded by an epic magical gangbang over at Weisshaupt.

Not necessarily.  The mechanics of how the Grey Warden Lore from the first Anderfel Deserters who fought killed Dumat to the second generation of Grey Wardens is maddenly vague and somewhat contradictory.  We are told that all those who originally abandoned thier vows to fight Dumat eventually were killed by him but not before they found a way to permanently kill Dumat.....but that all seems a bit too 'simple' and 'neat'.

What if a powerful agency (presumably someone had to learn and teach the ritual for this Supposed Dumat OGB) didn't want any of the other Old Gods to survive!  This would make perfect sense if the "Maker" were realy Fen'dar'el or something like that....and it would even make sense if Dumat even when imprisoned could sense this coming and taught a priestess/mage the OGB ritual for exactly this sort of emergency.  I could easily see Dumat setting up the other old gods to be killed by Grey Wardens by not telling them the whole truth.

As for the Origin of the Darkspawn, I think the first Darkspawn were corrupted Dwarves probably by the same sort of idol/tained Lyrium that the Primeaval Thaig was or something very much like it.  I could easily see the Magisters being involved in their dark (and ultimately corrupting) research, but only second hand.

In short, I think "Andraste" slimed the Magisters with the Darkspawn origin tale knowing full well that there was no one that could dispute the story....

-Polaris

Or that's exactly what Fen'Harel told her happened, she was a prophetess after all and Fen'Harel is a trickster god who is very into lies and pitting one side against another

[Rifneno]

The knowledge was lost because it was deemed a lesser evil for a Warden to die for every archdemon than to allow the continued existence of the new Grey Warden pickup line, "Hey baby, want an old god inside you?"

[Gamer Ftw]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'd just like to take this opportunity to promote the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory.

And yes, I'm serious.  Check the timelines.  The "Maker's chosen" with her superpowers shows up 26 years after the most powerful archdemon was slain.  As coincidences go, that one's a grand slam.  Andraste is the Dumat OGB.  Which ironically means Andraste is likely the creator of blood magic.  Lulz? 

It's a pretty sweet theory, and plausible. Just one teeny-tiny problem, though:

If the Dark Ritual had been performed prior to the slaying of Dumat, the Grey Warden who killed him would've survived. Of course, he may well have, there's no way of knowing if he did or not, since it's not mentioned. But if he did, then why is it that the Grey Warden Order assumes that death is an inevitable factor in the slaying of an archdemon?

Hell, we don't even know the name of the GW who slew Dumat.  There's any number of reasons such an ancient bit of knowledge would be lost in time.  The dwarves are clueless about the Primordial Thaig and that's a much bigger bit of history to just lose.

Oh, no doubt. I was just wondering if you had a specific scenario in mind. It just seems odd to me that the Grey Warden order would know how to slay an archdemon forever and why it works, but they would just forget that "Oh, guess what, not only do you not have to die, you can also get laid into the bargain."

I mean, that's some pretty pertinent information right there. if I was the First Warden, every battle against an Archdemon would be preceded by an epic magical gangbang over at Weisshaupt.

Most of the grey warden's seem pretty uptight. They really need epic warden gangbangs regardless of the reason.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

The knowledge was lost because it was deemed a lesser evil for a Warden to die for every archdemon than to allow the continued existence of the new Grey Warden pickup line, "Hey baby, want an old god inside you?"

Too bad.  Grey Warden's wouldn't have to "conscript" anyone during a blight if this option were generally known.  They'd have to beat off volunteers with a stick.

-Polaris

[Fast Jimmy]

Back to the original topic, I'd say its no stretch that the newlt Darkspawn infested Magisters would attack the dwarves first.

The Magisters were followers of the Old Gods and, as soon as they became Darkspawn, would become thralls under the Old Gods' songs, just as was described in DAO and DAA. The song would lead them from aboveground in Tevinter to the Deep Roads.

Only one Broodmother would be needed to create a force that would completely catch the dwarves off guard, after which, they could pull more females and grow exponentially yet again.

In short... darkspawn are drawn to the Old Gods. The Old Gods are underground, as are the dwarves. I don't see why that's a plot hole that they would dominate the underground first.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 juin 2011 - 12:07 .

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh, no doubt. I was just wondering if you had a specific scenario in mind. It just seems odd to me that the Grey Warden order would know how to slay an archdemon forever and why it works, but they would just forget that "Oh, guess what, not only do you not have to die, you can also get laid into the bargain."

I mean, that's some pretty pertinent information right there. if I was the First Warden, every battle against an Archdemon would be preceded by an epic magical gangbang over at Weisshaupt.

Not necessarily.  The mechanics of how the Grey Warden Lore from the first Anderfel Deserters who fought killed Dumat to the second generation of Grey Wardens is maddenly vague and somewhat contradictory.  We are told that all those who originally abandoned thier vows to fight Dumat eventually were killed by him but not before they found a way to permanently kill Dumat.....but that all seems a bit too 'simple' and 'neat'.

What if a powerful agency (presumably someone had to learn and teach the ritual for this Supposed Dumat OGB) didn't want any of the other Old Gods to survive!  This would make perfect sense if the "Maker" were realy Fen'dar'el or something like that....and it would even make sense if Dumat even when imprisoned could sense this coming and taught a priestess/mage the OGB ritual for exactly this sort of emergency.  I could easily see Dumat setting up the other old gods to be killed by Grey Wardens by not telling them the whole truth.

As for the Origin of the Darkspawn, I think the first Darkspawn were corrupted Dwarves probably by the same sort of idol/tained Lyrium that the Primeaval Thaig was or something very much like it.  I could easily see the Magisters being involved in their dark (and ultimately corrupting) research, but only second hand.

In short, I think "Andraste" slimed the Magisters with the Darkspawn origin tale knowing full well that there was no one that could dispute the story....

-Polaris

Ooo! I just had a delicious theory. All this stuff about how Wardens can't have children because of the taint... what if it's not a side effect? What if it's intentional? Let's say the Wardens of the day knew about the loop in their holes(copyright Flemeth Industries). They may have deemed it too dangerous to let the old gods back into the world. I can certainly see why. We don't really know how the Joining works. Well, the nasty drink part of it. We only know it's "ritually prepared" and is mostly darkspawn with a drop of archdemon blood. Hmm, wiki says lyrium too. Anyway my point is, the sterility could well be an herbal type of addition to it or part of the magic involved.

[dragonflight288]

Or part of being tainted.

I still don't see how the Tevinters would go down to the deep roads, where there really isn't a lot of room to house hundreds of slaves, which may make it easy for several to escape, and I don't see the dwarves allowing it to happen because of tradition.

[TEWR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 I'd also like to point out that religion is a means to attain power. I'd like to quote Edgar Allan Poe here if I may:


“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry”

wise words from a great man. Let's try to pinpoint where the Chantry falls to these five things.

• Fraud - The Chantry seems on the outside to be an ideal established religion. They do good deeds and protect its' citizens. But how many of these good deeds are simply done to shroud over their evil acts? Like the Exalted March of the Dales. I find it hard to believe that the Dalish Elves of that time would've assaulted anyone on purpose and without provocation. They were thankful that the people gave them land again. Land that had been forcibly taken from them by the Tevinter Imperium. I doubt they would've jeopardized their status for any reason. We also know that the Chantry sent missionaries to convert the Dalish elves, which they refused to do because they wanted to worship their own religion. So the missionaries left, but then returned to forcibly convert them. Because as we all know, the Chantry's dogma states that the Chant of Light must be sung from the four corners of the world. And they have no qualms about how they go about achieving that. Mass murder seems to fit in well with their morality. Good to know. So the Dalish fought back in defense. Had the other nations not gotten involved with this conflict, the Dalish could've won, because Orlais had just survived a Blight and was incredibly weak at this time. Who knows, maybe they wanted their land back because it was still in good health. Also, the elves supposedly remained neutral throughout that Blight (imo a stupid maneuver because it's a f****** Blight. not a war). So fraud, check.
• Fear - The Chantry fears mages because they are born with something that is in their DNA. They fear them because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. They fear them because of spirits. So they gather them up and take them to the Circle to teach them how to properly defend against their magic (which the Dalish know how to do better). But they also indoctrinate the mages into thinking what they were born with is a curse from the Maker. I refer you to the one female mage who keeps praying for a sword of mercy to come, because she actually believes what she has is solely a curse. It is both a gift and a curse. As is most of what humanity has. Free will. Love. I could go on. Anyway, the Chantry also teaches the populus to fear mages. Most do, yet some believe that mages can be good people and worthy of respect (Gregoir, Leandra, Ser Maarevar Carver, Alistair, etc.). The Chantry would be content with making sure the world fears mages and sees them as less than human. Fear. A poison so foul it corrupts the very mind's rational thinking. They fear mages and make sure that everyone else does too. If a mage runs away from the Circle, he is automatically branded maleficar. All apostates are maleficar to them, and must be delivered "mercy". And in regards to the elves, they purposely left out verses dealing with Shartan. Why? I don't know for certain, but my guess is that after the Exalted March of the Dales they wanted to make sure people saw them as second-class citizens. Shartan fought with Andraste, yet they won't acknowledge him in their precious Chant.
• Greed - The Chantry controls lyrium as a means to keep a tight leash on the Templars. They don't want to lose their military, so they sure they're addicted to the lyrium. Once they're addicted, they're almost forced to remain within their ranks. If they leave, the withdrawal could kill them. One could also argue that they only "convert" other people so they can become more dominant. It has nothing to do with the Maker. It's all about influence over the world.
• Imagination and Poetry - These two go hand in hand to the Chant of Light. The Chant of Light is all fluff and poetic wording. The Golden City being corrupted by the hubris of the Tevinter mages seems to be a lie. Wynne states that it could all be allegory. What it could be an allegory to, I cannot say (I haven't brushed up on my literature studies for a while. I know what an allegory is, just what it is one to I don't know). It's a beautiful piece of literary work, but as Merrill says it has a lot of holes in it. Aveline, an atheist or a skeptical believer, says that it's pretty and maybe that's all it needs to be.

If anyone would like to add more to these, feel free. I'll then edit your posts in and give credit where credit is due.

My Chantry rant from another thread.


there is no way Magisters created the Darkspawn. Not when we've found the Primeval Thaig that supports the Dwarves' story even more. The first Darkspawn were most likely Primeval Thaig Dwarves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 juin 2011 - 02:33 .