276 réponses à ce sujet

[themonty72]

You really do know your stuff about the Chantry....thats why i spared Anders life.I couldnt understand why players didnt understand how Chantry works and how they feared Mages and really never supported them, jaiil themand let them be guarded by dope heads addicted to lyrium----the templars. Thanks Ethereal writer. Hell, reading your stuff taught  taught me some things I didnt know about the chantry.

Modifié par themonty72, 04 juin 2011 - 04:02 .

[Rifneno]

I do find it surprising how many people take the whole Tevinter-Darkspawn fairy tale at face value. There's literally no supporting evidence. I mean sure, it might be true. But the Bermuda Triangle might be a dimensional vortex that leads to the batarian homeworld. Gonna need some supporting evidence for either of those.

[TEWR]

I also made one on blood magic and how it isn't inherently evil, but until that topic pops up in this thread in more form than just the Tevinter fairy tale I'll refrain from posting it.

[Iakus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fraud - The Chantry seems on the outside to be an ideal established religion. They do good deeds and protect its' citizens. But how many of these good deeds are simply done to shroud over their evil acts? Like the Exalted March of the Dales. I find it hard to believe that the Dalish Elves of that time would've assaulted anyone on purpose and without provocation. They were thankful that the people gave them land again. Land that had been forcibly taken from them by the Tevinter Imperium. I doubt they would've jeopardized their status for any reason. We also know that the Chantry sent missionaries to convert the Dalish elves, which they refused to do because they wanted to worship their own religion. So the missionaries left, but then returned to forcibly convert them. Because as we all know, the Chantry's dogma states that the Chant of Light must be sung from the four corners of the world. And they have no qualms about how they go about achieving that. Mass murder seems to fit in well with their morality. Good to know. So the Dalish fought back in defense. Had the other nations not gotten involved with this conflict, the Dalish could've won, because Orlais had just survived a Blight and was incredibly weak at this time. Who knows, maybe they wanted their land back because it was still in good health. Also, the elves supposedly remained neutral throughout that Blight (imo a stupid maneuver because it's a f****** Blight. not a war). So fraud, check.

Of course, how do we know the details of that Exalted March are any more true than the details of the origin of the Darkspawn?  Or the slaying of Dumat?  How do we know it was done out of genocidal malice, rather than, say, a tragic misunderstanding?  Or a setup by a third party?  If there's one thing the Dragon Age series has shown us is that no one is entirely innocent.  I'm not taking any historical codex entries at face value anymore.

Fear - The Chantry fears mages because they are born with something that is in their DNA. They fear them because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. They fear them because of spirits. So they gather them up and take them to the Circle to teach them how to properly defend against their magic (which the Dalish know how to do better). But they also indoctrinate the mages into thinking what they were born with is a curse from the Maker. I refer you to the one female mage who keeps praying for a sword of mercy to come, because she actually believes what she has is solely a curse. It is both a gift and a curse. As is most of what humanity has. Free will. Love. I could go on. Anyway, the Chantry also teaches the populus to fear mages. Most do, yet some believe that mages can be good people and worthy of respect (Gregoir, Leandra, Ser Maarevar Carver, Alistair, etc.). The Chantry would be content with making sure the world fears mages and sees them as less than human. Fear. A poison so foul it corrupts the very mind's rational thinking. They fear mages and make sure that everyone else does too. If a mage runs away from the Circle, he is automatically branded maleficar. All apostates are maleficar to them, and must be delivered "mercy". And in regards to the elves, they purposely left out verses dealing with Shartan. Why? I don't know for certain, but my guess is that after the Exalted March of the Dales they wanted to make sure people saw them as second-class citizens. Shartan fought with Andraste, yet they won't acknowledge him in their precious Chant.

Yes, fear.  But not entirely mindless fear.  There are maleficar.  There are abominations.  There are those who think the Tevinters had the right idea.  And the number of human mages born is growing (while the number of elf mages are shrinking)  Sadly, the need to be careful with magic has over time morphed into a general fear of magic.  Which has only made the situation worse.  The admonition that "Magic exists to serve man and never rule over him" has been greatly distorted.  I think that line shows the fear is human fear, not institutional fear.

Shartan, yeah it's a disgrace that he's been forgotten by the Chantry.  Probably as a result of the Exalted March of the Dales.

Greed - The Chantry controls lyrium as a means to keep a tight leash on the Templars. They don't want to lose their military, so they sure they're addicted to the lyrium. Once they're addicted, they're almost forced to remain within their ranks. If they leave, the withdrawal could kill them. One could also argue that they only "convert" other people so they can become more dominant. It has nothing to do with the Maker. It's all about influence over the world.

This makes little sense to me.  What makes the Templars so valuable that it's worth stringing them out on a rare and expensive drug to keep them loyal?  The Templars are essentially mage hunters. They can survive attacks that destroy a dozen ordinary soldiers.  But a templar would not himself survive those dozen soldiers.  I am willing to take it at face value that the lyrium does indeed strengthen their abilities and make them better able to keep mages in check.  The addiction is a burden the templars willingly take upon themselves for their duties.

If anything, I'd say the Chantry controls the lyrium trade to keep apostates from becoming too powerful, with the unfortunate side effect that they end up turning to blood magic instead.  Oops.

Imagination and Poetry - These two go hand in hand to the Chant of Light. The Chant of Light is all fluff and poetic wording. The Golden City being corrupted by the hubris of the Tevinter mages seems to be a lie. Wynne states that it could all be allegory. What it could be an allegory to, I cannot say (I haven't brushed up on my literature studies for a while. I know what an allegory is, just what it is one to I don't know). It's a beautiful piece of literary work, but as Merrill says it has a lot of holes in it. Aveline, an atheist or a skeptical believer, says that it's pretty and maybe that's all it needs to be.

If it is allegory, it's probably something along the lines of "The Maker saw how murderous and decandent the Tevinter Imperium had become, and threw up his hands saying 'Screw it, I'm outta here!  Let me know when you've decided to get your act together!'":lol:

there is no way Magisters created the Darkspawn. Not when we've found the Primeval Thaig that supports the Dwarves' story even more. The first Darkspawn were most likely Primeval Thaig Dwarves.

But the Primeval Thaig was full of rock wraiths and those profane thingees.  Not darkspawn.  It actually reminded me of Gandalf's line about Moria:

"There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world"

Modifié par iakus, 04 juin 2011 - 05:57 .

[Gamer Ftw]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I also made one on blood magic and how it isn't inherently evil, but until that topic pops up in this thread in more form than just the Tevinter fairy tale I'll refrain from posting it.

I totally agree. they are only afraid of it because you can control people.

[dragonflight288]

Very nice. I happen to be an English Writing and Literature major in college, so I study literature and the time-period of when it was written, the culture the author was writing for and their intended audience.

My thoughts on Wynne saying it's allegory could simply be, and keep in mind that this theory is one I just thought off the bat so it may have some holes in it, is that maybe the Tevinter created the darkspawn through blood-magic rituals, or accidentally unleashed them into the deep roads, and they did these experiments because of their pride in their magical abilities.

There are no codex entries to support that theory. I was thinking the darkspawn being born of their sin and pride could be an allegory of what actually happened. I don't know for certain, since I just thought up that theory.

EDIT: In response to

there is no way Magisters created the Darkspawn. Not when we've
found the Primeval Thaig that supports the Dwarves' story even more. The
first Darkspawn were most likely Primeval Thaig Dwarves.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 04 juin 2011 - 08:23 .

[TEWR]

what if the Tevinters used blood magic and the red lyrium instead of the blue lyrium and that caused the darkspawn?

[GavrielKay]

From the codex on lyrium:

Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human.

What if the darkspawn are simply the result of prolonged exposure to lyrium... either forcibly or by stupidity. I could see the Tevinters experimenting with lyrium's effect on people just as easily as I can see them doing blood experiments on them. And lyrium sings, so after going mad with it, they could be attracted to the singing of the old gods.

Edit:  spelling and somewhat ninja'ed  

Modifié par GavrielKay, 04 juin 2011 - 08:36 .

[dragonflight288]

....you know, that actually makes a lot of sense.

[TEWR]

Aha! That's it! lyrium corrupts!

[dragonflight288]

*shrug* With the memories being altered in Cadash Thaig concerning the slaughter of the elves so the dwarves could say it never happened, and the removal of Lord/Lady Aeducan from the memories (as in they never existed) I am hesitant to point out the records of the dwarves for confirmation. If something rotten was going on there, they would remove it so they could be seen as honorable.

[TEWR]

jollyorigins wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

what if the Tevinters used blood magic and the red lyrium instead of the blue lyrium and that caused the darkspawn?

That's what I'm saying. Is the red lyrium created by normal lyrium + lots of blood magic? (remember the magisters slaughtered hundreds of their elves to achieve whatever they did.) So much about blood magic is unknown aside from being able to control others because the chantry forbids it. Perhaps the life giving and strange powers of lyrium aided by the blood of living things is what caused the rock to come alive in Primeval Thaig, and creating the rock wraiths.

...I love making all these theories up.

I think the Rock Wraiths are Primeval Thaig Dwarves, and that they could cast magic when they were all dwarfy.

This makes little sense to me.  What makes the Templars so valuable that it's worth stringing them out on a rare and expensive drug to keep them loyal?  The Templars are essentially mage hunters. They can survive attacks that destroy a dozen ordinary soldiers.  But a templar would not himself survive those dozen soldiers.  I am willing to take it at face value that the lyrium does indeed strengthen their abilities and make them better able to keep mages in check.  The addiction is a burden the templars willingly take upon themselves for their duties.

If anything, I'd say the Chantry controls the lyrium trade to keep apostates from becoming too powerful, with the unfortunate side effect that they end up turning to blood magic instead.  Oops.

Think about it. If the Chantry started doing some stuff that was morally wrong, then the Templars could leave the Chantry's service if they weren't being given lyrium.

But if you get them addicted, then you have a tighter leash on them and the odds of them leaving are small.

Templar abilities don't actually require lyrium, as Alistair said.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jollyorigins wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

what if the Tevinters used blood magic and the red lyrium instead of the blue lyrium and that caused the darkspawn?

That's what I'm saying. Is the red lyrium created by normal lyrium + lots of blood magic? (remember the magisters slaughtered hundreds of their elves to achieve whatever they did.) So much about blood magic is unknown aside from being able to control others because the chantry forbids it. Perhaps the life giving and strange powers of lyrium aided by the blood of living things is what caused the rock to come alive in Primeval Thaig, and creating the rock wraiths.

...I love making all these theories up.

I think the Rock Wraiths are Primeval Thaig Dwarves, and that they could cast magic when they were all dwarfy.

This makes little sense to me.  What makes the Templars so valuable that it's worth stringing them out on a rare and expensive drug to keep them loyal?  The Templars are essentially mage hunters. They can survive attacks that destroy a dozen ordinary soldiers.  But a templar would not himself survive those dozen soldiers.  I am willing to take it at face value that the lyrium does indeed strengthen their abilities and make them better able to keep mages in check.  The addiction is a burden the templars willingly take upon themselves for their duties.

If anything, I'd say the Chantry controls the lyrium trade to keep apostates from becoming too powerful, with the unfortunate side effect that they end up turning to blood magic instead.  Oops.

Think about it. If the Chantry started doing some stuff that was morally wrong, then the Templars could leave the Chantry's service if they weren't being given lyrium.

But if you get them addicted, then you have a tighter leash on them and the odds of them leaving are small.

Templar abilities don't actually require lyrium, as Alistair said.

No, but they're referring to lyrium enhancing templar abilities, not creating them.  I'm personally still trying to figure out how templar abilities exist without lyrium.  If templars aren't mages themselves, then where do these magic-countering abilities come from?  I think Bioware would have been better off sticking with the belief that lyrium was indeed necessary for templar talents.

That said, templars may primarily be mage hunters, but they also serve a function as the Chantry's military arm quite apart from that.  Come in handy for Exalted Marches and such, so that alone makes them valuable. Not so much for being templars in this scenario but just being a readily available fighting force already under Chantry control.  It's a lot easier to keep your soldiers available for non-mage hunting duties when you're the only source for a drug they need.

[WhiteKnyght]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I don't think mages are as are constantly at risk of being possessed.
[excluding Kirkwall where the veil is thin.}
I don't think magister's really started the blight.
I believe Andraste was a mage and they covered it up.
discuss.

I think Andraste was a Dreamer like Feynriel from what's been said about her life(she would "meditate" for long periods of time and the Tevinters were struck with things like droughts and floods) and what's been said about Dreamers(that they can go into the Fade at will without any lyrium and can control it and the physical world).

Plus correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most, if not all prophets against war? As in, they are pacifists. And Andraste's claims are awfully convenient considering blaming Tevinter for the blight brings a lot of people to her cause.

Also I think Flemeth might have something to do with the Blights. Just a hunch since she has apparently more knowledge than anyone about them, has special magics that relate to blights(Darkspawn warding, the Dark Ritual, and the fact that she killed a hurlock with her mouth and didn't become tainted.).

In a lot of religions there is usually an evil that counters the good, is there not? So Flemeth could be the Maker's evil rival in the game and all her deals and deeds could be towards her own evil ends.

And no, Mages are not at constant risk. Demons approach in the fade. So as long as a mage stays out of the fade they have nothing to fear.

[TEWR]

That's another thing I meant too. Keeping a tight leash on their military arm is what I would expect from the Chantry.


Luckily, the Templars have broken off from the Chantry. For good or for worse for the mages, I don't know. But the Chantry is still screwed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 juin 2011 - 09:56 .

[Silfren]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I don't think mages are as are constantly at risk of being possessed.
[excluding Kirkwall where the veil is thin.}
I don't think magister's really started the blight.
I believe Andraste was a mage and they covered it up.
discuss.

I think Andraste was a Dreamer like Feynriel from what's been said about her life(she would "meditate" for long periods of time and the Tevinters were struck with things like droughts and floods) and what's been said about Dreamers(that they can go into the Fade at will without any lyrium and can control it and the physical world).

Plus correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most, if not all prophets against war? As in, they are pacifists. And Andraste's claims are awfully convenient considering blaming Tevinter for the blight brings a lot of people to her cause.

Also I think Flemeth might have something to do with the Blights. Just a hunch since she has apparently more knowledge than anyone about them, has special magics that relate to blights(Darkspawn warding, the Dark Ritual, and the fact that she killed a hurlock with her mouth and didn't become tainted.).

In a lot of religions there is usually an evil that counters the good, is there not? So Flemeth could be the Maker's evil rival in the game and all her deals and deeds could be towards her own evil ends.

And no, Mages are not at constant risk. Demons approach in the fade. So as long as a mage stays out of the fade they have nothing to fear.

There's nothing at all that says being a pacifist is a prerequisite for being a prophet.  Whether or not many prophets have been pacifists has no bearing on whether you can use that criteria to determine whether someone really was a prophet or not.  That said, I don't think it's true that all or even most prophets have been pacifists.  But again, even if that were true, it still says nothing about whether someone has to be a pacifist in order to be a prophet as well.

[WhiteKnyght]

Unless the Templars also take the lyrium trade away from the Chantry, they wont stay gone long.

Also the fact that the Templars had to rebel to go hunt Mages means the Chantry might have been more reasonable than we think. After all the Mages were willing participants when the Circle of Magi was first founded and the Grand Cleric and Divine rejected Meredith and Alrik's depraved plans for the mages(Annulment and Tranquility).

So its possible that the Templars are more to blame than the Chantry itself for the abuse of mages and the Chantry wasn't going to oppose the Circle deciding that they wanted to be free but the Templars had their own opinions.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's nothing in the Primeval Thaig that hints at a connection to the darkspawn or the taint. In fact one of the accounts from dwarven scouts in the region imply that the rock wraiths will kill darkspawn just as soon as any other creature. As far as the true origin of the darkspawn goes, no we don't have any clear evidence but I wouldn't dismiss the Chantry story out of hand. They may or may not be right about the Magisters' role in it but they aren't wrong about everything: the Archdemons are in fact the Old Gods for example. Not every scholar was convinced they were.

The other thing is that Caradin's journal in the Deep Roads seems to imply that he blames humans for the emergence of the darkspawn.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 juin 2011 - 10:36 .

[dragonflight288]

Luckily, the Templars have broken off from the Chantry. For good or for worse for the mages, I don't know. But the Chantry is still screwed.

I honestly doubt they will stay gone long. Templars are addicted to lyrium, and the chantry are the only people on the surface who can get the stuff.

No, but they're referring to lyrium enhancing templar abilities, not creating them.  I'm personally still trying to figure out how templar abilities exist without lyrium.  If templars aren't mages themselves, then where do these magic-countering abilities come from?  I think Bioware would have been better off sticking with the belief that lyrium was indeed necessary for templar talents.

Actually, in DA2 Samson the former templar says that lyrium gives templars their abilities. The fact that Alistair uses them proves Samson wrong, and since Samson was a templar, he had been lied to concerning the effects lyrium has on templars. Many of them believe it is needed to fight "the mages unholy powers" (Ser Perth's words, not mine. Well, he called it Unholy magics).

[WhiteKnyght]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Actually, in DA2 Samson the former templar says that lyrium gives templars their abilities. The fact that Alistair uses them proves Samson wrong, and since Samson was a templar, he had been lied to concerning the effects lyrium has on templars. Many of them believe it is needed to fight "the mages unholy powers" (Ser Perth's words, not mine. Well, he called it Unholy magics).

Alistair's exact words were something along the lines of "You don't need lyrium to learn a templar's talents. It just makes Templar's talents more effective. Maybe it doesn't even do that".

Also not to mention the fact that Hawke, The Warden, and any other warrior in Origins can become a Templar with no lyrium.

[Rifneno]

You know something else that I found... unusual? About Shartan. The sword Glandivalis you can get was supposedly given to him from Andraste. Andraste gave the elf who helped her free the slaves a weapon that has an effect of "2.5% chance to enslave normal enemies." Pardon my Orlesian, but what the ****?