276 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Right... And Orzammar would do that why? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Orzammar benefits nothing from such a deal.

Indeed. How stupid. A city under constant siege from darkspawn would have nothing to gain by making bestest friends foreverest with a bunch of people who can rain down hellfire and brimstone on mindless hordes. Unless... wait a second... !!!

And make an enemy of the rest of the world? What a splendid idea, then they could have enemies attacking both from below and from above! You are a genious sir! Orzammar could use a good old DP....

Now lets us put this stupid idea to rest shall we? It would be political and literal suicide of Orzammar to do such a thing. Orzammar isn't dependant on selling their lyrium, what they are dependant of is supplies from the surface. The only thing the surface want from Orzammar is lyrium. If the Dwarves won't supply lyrium, why would the surface(Chantry) trade with this hole (literally)?

Because it's not like Orzammar is sitting under a nation that, while mostly Andrastian, bears no love loss for the Orlesian Chantry that supported the invasion and brutal subjugation of it right?  But really, I'm just replying because I want to openly chuckle at having my intelligence questioned by someone misspelling the word genius.  Well played, sir!  Bravo!  Hehe.

[maxernst]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed. How stupid. A city under constant siege from darkspawn would have nothing to gain by making bestest friends foreverest with a bunch of people who can rain down hellfire and brimstone on mindless hordes. Unless... wait a second... !!!

And make an enemy of the rest of the world? What a splendid idea, then they could have enemies attacking both from below and from above! You are a genious sir! Orzammar could use a good old DP....

Now lets us put this stupid idea to rest shall we? It would be political and literal suicide of Orzammar to do such a thing.

Isn't this basically the independent Circle of Orzammar that can transpire with Dagna's research and not aiding Brother Burkel (as long as The Warden didn't ask for the Magi boon)? It doesn't seem that the leadership of the dwarven kingdom cares that much about the Chantry's opinion when he willingly permits apostates in one of the last Great Thaigs remaining.

There IS talk about a possible Exalted March against Orzammar, however.  On the other hand, it seems to me, both have a great deal at risk here.  The Chantry needs to weigh the dependence of its private army on lyrium and the usefulness of dwarven-forged weapons and armor (which are probably a bigger trade item) against its desire to quash free mages.  And while Orzammar would likely not want to cross a group that wields so much influence among humanity, they have to be cognizant of the fact that mages can be a considerable help with their ongoing struggles with the Darkspawn...potentially a better help than golems, in my judgement. 

[maxernst]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

How can the devs want us to believe that mages are constantly cajoled by demons in their dreams and distracted moments when we can play 7 years of Hawke's life in the company of other mages and never have it happen to us? Even a single quest from Hawke (or Merrill or Bethany if Hawke isn't a mage) where the mage is approached in their dreams and a demon attempts to trick them could advance that plot theme better than having Meredith and the Chantry just preach it.

Plot armor.

It's not like we don't run into abominations frequently enough to have clear evidence that it can happen.  While you can argue that the Chantry may exaggerate the danger, both Bethany and Merrill acknowledge it, and Merrill tells you that the tribe must hunt down and kill a Keeper that becomes an abomination.  The implication is that even Dalish Keepers have been known to fall prey to Demons, though it's presumably very rare.  And Merrill herself can be tricked by a demon when you go into Feynriel's fade dream, which makes one seriously doubt her conviction that she is too well trained and well guarded to fall, given the right demon and the right temptation.

[Abispa]

Maybe all of us conspiracy theorists can get together and form a group DEMANDING that Bioware make Flemeth be Andraste. We can call it "Fight for the Heresy" or something.

[Abispa]

@ GavrielKay -- Several characters and the codex itself seem to indicated that the veil is weak in the region of Kirkwall, plus Meredith's treatment of Kirkwall Circle was seen as harsh even by the Grand Cleric, which may help explain why just about every mage in Kirkwall eventually decides to put on an Ass Hat.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

How can the devs want us to believe that mages are constantly cajoled by demons in their dreams and distracted moments when we can play 7 years of Hawke's life in the company of other mages and never have it happen to us? Even a single quest from Hawke (or Merrill or Bethany if Hawke isn't a mage) where the mage is approached in their dreams and a demon attempts to trick them could advance that plot theme better than having Meredith and the Chantry just preach it.

Plot armor.

What about the fact that there are free mages among the Chasind, the Avvar, the Rivanni, the Dalish, and even in the morally bankrupt society of Haven, not to mention centuries ago in the nation of the Dales, the kingdom of Arlathan, and the ancient Tevinter Imperium? If free mages were so at risk, why isn't Thedas overrun with abominations? Why wasn't it overrun centuries ago? Why didn't Arlathan, Tevinter, the Dales, or the myraid of free mages in the non-Andrastian societies lead to abominations ruling Thedas? Why didn't Malcolm become an abomination? I don't thinkt it's accurate to say it's plot armor that Hawke isn't an abomination as an apostate when he's not the only mage who can resist demons.

maxernst wrote...

And Merrill herself can be tricked by a demon when you go into Feynriel's fade dream, which makes one seriously doubt her conviction that she is too well trained and well guarded to fall, given the right demon and the right temptation.

Because a ridiculous quest that railroads every single character (except Anders) into attempted murder merely by a few words is a perfect example of character analysis.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 07 juin 2011 - 08:15 .

[Silfren]

maxernst wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

How can the devs want us to believe that mages are constantly cajoled by demons in their dreams and distracted moments when we can play 7 years of Hawke's life in the company of other mages and never have it happen to us? Even a single quest from Hawke (or Merrill or Bethany if Hawke isn't a mage) where the mage is approached in their dreams and a demon attempts to trick them could advance that plot theme better than having Meredith and the Chantry just preach it.

Plot armor.

It's not like we don't run into abominations frequently enough to have clear evidence that it can happen.  While you can argue that the Chantry may exaggerate the danger, both Bethany and Merrill acknowledge it, and Merrill tells you that the tribe must hunt down and kill a Keeper that becomes an abomination.  The implication is that even Dalish Keepers have been known to fall prey to Demons, though it's presumably very rare.  And Merrill herself can be tricked by a demon when you go into Feynriel's fade dream, which makes one seriously doubt her conviction that she is too well trained and well guarded to fall, given the right demon and the right temptation.

Nevertheless, it would make sense for a Mage PC to be subjected to at least one quest wherein they're forced to face temptation.  Plot armor is not a good excuse.  In fact it's a stupid one.  Of course we'd have to WIN in the struggle against being tempted, but that goes without saying.  If constant temptation from the fade is part of a being a mage, then it stands to reason a mage character should receive that sort of class-specific random encounter.

[Dean_the_Young]

Or they could bypass on class-specific content, for much the same reason Warriors and Rogues don't get special missions.

Mind you, it's not like there isn't a number of opportunities for every Hawke to be tempted... including the Fenriel (spelling, I know), when siding with the Sloth demon is an option from the start. And the Deep Roads.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 juin 2011 - 09:29 .

[Silfren]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or they could bypass on class-specific content, for much the same reason Warriors and Rogues don't get special missions.

Mind you, it's not like there isn't a number of opportunities for every Hawke to be tempted... including the Fenriel (spelling, I know), when siding with the Sloth demon is an option from the start. And the Deep Roads.

There's nothing about being a rogue or a warrior that is inherent to that class in the way that being a demon-magnet is a supposedly inborn consequence of being a mage.  It wouldn't be unbalancing the game for a mage to have one, maybe two, short quests that involve being attacked by a demon.  It would just make sense for the lore.  So so what if mages were given at least one quest you only got as that class?

Modifié par Silfren, 07 juin 2011 - 10:14 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

So a mage should get more content just for being a mage? Can you imagine the outcry of injustice amongst the fans who never play mage? No. If a mage get s class quest, it would require warrior and rogue to get one aswell.

[Satyricon331]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So a mage should get more content just for being a mage? Can you imagine the outcry of injustice amongst the fans who never play mage? No. If a mage get s class quest, it would require warrior and rogue to get one aswell.

I think having different quests would be a good thing, and easy to write.  People are supposed to stigmatize mages generally, so someone might give a non-mage a quest but not approach a mage.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And make an enemy of the rest of the world? What a splendid idea, then they could have enemies attacking both from below and from above! You are a genious sir! Orzammar could use a good old DP....

Now lets us put this stupid idea to rest shall we? It would be political and literal suicide of Orzammar to do such a thing. Orzammar isn't dependant on selling their lyrium, what they are dependant of is supplies from the surface. The only thing the surface want from Orzammar is lyrium. If the Dwarves won't supply lyrium, why would the surface(Chantry) trade with this hole (literally)?

Of course the Andrastian nations would rather set Thedas backwards on the scale of development by wiping out Orzammar, rather than deal with the idea that somewhere, mages aren't being oppressed or hunted 24/7.

[White_Buffalo94]

Mages aren't constantly being pestered and at risk for possession. Everyone is, Mages just moreso (which, only in Kirkwall do we see this happening on a regular basis)

The Tevinters didn't create the 'spawn. Like you said, it makes no sense. In fact, that is just another tool for the mage arguement.

I think Andraste was a mage. How else could she escape slavery without an invisibility spell?

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So a mage should get more content just for being a mage? Can you imagine the outcry of injustice amongst the fans who never play mage? No. If a mage get s class quest, it would require warrior and rogue to get one aswell.

That's a little melodramatic.  I'm talking about one or two quests, tops.  Even just one would suffice.  It wouldn't have to be anything more major than something akin to a "bandits attack" random encounter.  Even so, big deal, it would hardly be a a difficult thing to write a single quest that warriors and rogues have access to but not mages.  

Only people who played the Dalish origin got to have the added bit of seeing a major character from their past in the camp ambush in Origins.  I'm talking about something on that scale, not an hourlong mage-only quest that adds a great deal more content.

[dragonflight288]

The dwarves wouldn't care. In their eyes, the maker doesn't exist. They have no gods, and don't believe in the chantry. Magic would be seen as a valuable resource against the darkspawn...so long as the mages abide by the traditions.

What a great stick up the butt there. The nobles are literally killing each other off without the darkspawn and refuse to back down because tradition demands it be so.

But they do accept an independent circle in Origins if you do dagna's quest.

[lobi]

1) I don't think mages are as are constantly at risk of being possessed.
[excluding Kirkwall where the veil is thin.}

3) Kirkwall has nothing to do with it a mage must surrender to the Demon.

2) I don't think magister's really started the blight.

perhaps it is scorched earth response from the maker as the chantry teaches.

I believe Andraste was a mage and they covered it up.

True. Though it is mentioned by others that are not as influenced by chantry retcons. Also the Sacred Ashes site reeks of Blood magic it is a tevinter building after all.
 

Modifié par lobi, 08 juin 2011 - 03:38 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Magisters could would have started the Blights for all we know. The darkspawn were searching for the Old Gods in the Deep Roads. They don't have any particular antipathy towrds the dwarves, they were just the closest civilization to the start of the First Blight.

Even without including the Chantry's analysis of the story such as the part about being cursed by the Maker or destroying the Golden City with their sin, the basic premise could very well have happened. The tevinters worshiped the Old Gods and the darkspawn are tied to them somehow. And if they were somehow corrupted by a catastrophically failed magical experiment involving the Golden City it's not inconceivable that they would seek the Old Gods out. The taint has also some connection to the Black City, apparently.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 juin 2011 - 05:02 .

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the fact that there are free mages among the Chasind, the Avvar, the Rivanni, the Dalish, and even in the morally bankrupt society of Haven, not to mention centuries ago in the nation of the Dales, the kingdom of Arlathan, and the ancient Tevinter Imperium? If free mages were so at risk, why isn't Thedas overrun with abominations? Why wasn't it overrun centuries ago? Why didn't Arlathan, Tevinter, the Dales, or the myraid of free mages in the non-Andrastian societies lead to abominations ruling Thedas? Why didn't Malcolm become an abomination? I don't thinkt it's accurate to say it's plot armor that Hawke isn't an abomination as an apostate when he's not the only mage who can resist demons.

I said plot armor that companion / protagonist mages weren't shown being tempted by demons, not that every mage can't resist demons. We know enough of the other societies that they deal with abominations themselves, hell one of those societies mentions they willingly allow their mages to become possessed.

The game itself has said multiple times that demons hound mages awake and in their dreams, by tempting them or by brute force. Which is what we don't experience because of plot armor. Having your screen go fuzzy and having a pokemon random encounter at random would probably annoy mages.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 juin 2011 - 06:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Ugh.

Or just create a Final Fantasy type scenario.

Take a step
-trigger a fight

Take a step
-trigger a fight

repeat to infinity.

I think we needed a personal quest for Hawke like the Night Terrors one to showcase this in action. Just the once to show how scary this could be for a person or how tempting.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I was meh about demons portrayed in Origins (Quadruply meh about those in DA2), but the Harrowing was awesome and imo, truly showed what mages go through. Subtle temptation (and not "rawr all your body are belong to us!"). In future games, mages (who should really have a separate origin), should have a sidequest (or a series of sidequest throughout the game) that deals with a demon.

[_Aine_]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

That would've redeemed MageHawke being the most immersion breaking thing in the game. We could have gotten an awesome story arc where a demon is tempting Hawke with promises of power.

I like it!    

That was one of the things I missed from DAO that I think they did well.  I like those subtle details in general though.  

[Eveangaline]

I don't know so much if I'd call it a lie. But I don't think it's true. I think a lie has to involve the person telling it knowing it's false/aknowledging to themselves that there's a good chance it's false. I don't think most andrastians consider that the stories of their religion might not be true.


It's kind of like Merril said about the religions being their stories for undertanding how the world works. Unfortunately the particular story the church has about the darkspawn was made turns mages into caracatured villains. Which does lead to unfortunate situations considering you teach a segmant of the population that the horrible people like them made god go away, then they put in charge of said people a group of fanatics who grew up thinking horrible people like the mages made god go away.