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[Kaiser Shepard]

DA3 should have more dealing with demons, regardless of class. And not just the "PC does something bad, gets reward, nothing else happens" kind. I want more believable situations, more hopeless ones, in which it would make sense for even a goody two-shoes to at least consider the demon's propositions... and opportunities for these to bite you in the ass, big time. The Darkness-style.

[GavrielKay]

Abispa wrote...

@ GavrielKay -- Several characters and the codex itself seem to indicated that the veil is weak in the region of Kirkwall, plus Meredith's treatment of Kirkwall Circle was seen as harsh even by the Grand Cleric, which may help explain why just about every mage in Kirkwall eventually decides to put on an Ass Hat.

Yeah, I think it was known either before or shortly after the circle was established in Kirkwall that there were issues with the veil.  The mages couldn't have failed to notice it if nothing else and would almost certainly tell anyone who would listen.  Plus, I don't believe that there were absolutely no documents to be found by the powers that be regarding this issue.  It doesn't make me think much of the Chantry's claim to be protecting anyone from anyone else.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I said plot armor that companion / protagonist mages weren't shown being tempted by demons, not that every mage can't resist demons. We know enough of the other societies that they deal with abominations themselves, hell one of those societies mentions they willingly allow their mages to become possessed.

The game itself has said multiple times that demons hound mages awake and in their dreams, by tempting them or by brute force. Which is what we don't experience because of plot armor. Having your screen go fuzzy and having a pokemon random encounter at random would probably annoy mages.

Plot armor? I thought it had to do with the fact that players are denied an actual apostate POV as an illegal mage Hawke, which is why guards and templars have amnesia every time the game forces Hawke to use magic right in front of them, instead of not having scenes where guards and templars are witnessing an apostate in action and forgetting he's a mage outside the Circle of Kirkwall.

We have no idea on the perspective of mages because neither Origins nor Dragon Age 2 addressed it, even as a mage protagonist. The fact that populations of mages don't become abominations tell me the mages endure.

[GavrielKay]

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

The game itself has said multiple times that demons hound mages awake and in their dreams, by tempting them or by brute force. Which is what we don't experience because of plot armor. Having your screen go fuzzy and having a pokemon random encounter at random would probably annoy mages. [/quote]

[/quote]

It wouldn't have annoyed me, it would have backed up a key bit of lore used by the Chantry and some pro-Templar players to justify keeping the mages locked up even after they've proven themselves in the Harrowing.  If we're meant to believe that mages can't be free because no matter what they do or how good hearted they are, they can still become an abomination in the middle of a dream and kill their whole village - then SHOW me.  Don't put in a codex or have some NPC telling me 'tis so.  The Hawke story is supposed to span "nearly a decade" so it's reasonable to assume if mages are constantly under threat, it should be seen in that time frame.

Also, if the PC isn't a mage, you could play out that single quest from the point of view of one of the other party mages.  Personally I'd think it would be great to have an extra quest for each class, specific to that class.  Make it interesting to play through as each.

[Tirfan]

Oh yeah, had I played mage in DA2 I think I would have kinda liked that sort of quest, the problem is, that quest would not be optional, and I can't quite easily see how you could force a class specific quest for other classes, I don't think it would work that someone just comes up to you if you are playing rogue and says "Hey want to rob this dude?" and it suddenly becames a main quest..
(and of course I would have to answer that sorry, no can do, no stealing skill)

On topic: Who is surprised the chantry lies? Andrastianism is a religion and what religions and religious organizations do? They lie.

[GavrielKay]

Tirfan wrote...

Oh yeah, had I played mage in DA2 I think I would have kinda liked that sort of quest, the problem is, that quest would not be optional, and I can't quite easily see how you could force a class specific quest for other classes, I don't think it would work that someone just comes up to you if you are playing rogue and says "Hey want to rob this dude?" and it suddenly becames a main quest..
(and of course I would have to answer that sorry, no can do, no stealing skill)

On topic: Who is surprised the chantry lies? Andrastianism is a religion and what religions and religious organizations do? They lie.

It wouldn't have to be forced on other classes.  It could be sensitive to the class of the PC and activate random encounter style for each.  It's just a matter of the complete disconnect between lore and gamplay.  I can't believe that mages are SO dangerous when nothing ever happens to mageHawke.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Then don't look at Hawke but at all the other mages. You must accept that Hawke have plot armor. But all the amges we meet do not. The list of dangerous mages we encounter is long, and should be proof enough that mages are dangerous, even without demonic influence. Then add the multitides of abominations we encoutner, and the statements should be proven even further.

You can't use Hawke and the Warden only, to outweigh the multitudes of screw ups amongst the mages.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then don't look at Hawke but at all the other mages. You must accept that Hawke have plot armor. But all the amges we meet do not. The list of dangerous mages we encounter is long, and should be proof enough that mages are dangerous, even without demonic influence. Then add the multitides of abominations we encoutner, and the statements should be proven even further.

You can't use Hawke and the Warden only, to outweigh the multitudes of screw ups amongst the mages.

We see only two mages who could possibly count towards the idea that mages are constantly under seige by demons waiting for them to screw up:  Connor (who is untrained) and Feynriel (who is extremely special).

I'm talking about a very specific point of lore:  that mages are constantly, unceasingly beset by demons waiting for them to drop their guard and become abominations in the middle of their villages and kill hundreds of people before they are hunted down.

I coudln't give a hoot about mages who are tortured, greedy, evil or psycho because whether they may or may not do more damage than other greedy evil psychopaths is not my question.  (Though, for the record, I do not admit that mages are so much more powerful than everyone else that this is a decided issue for me.)

I want to know why I should believe that good people who've passed their Harrowing can't be allowed to leave the circle and have a normal life with minor supervision along the lines of knowing where they are and maintaining their training.

I do not believe the gameplay gives me any evidence to support the Chantry position.

[MichaelFinnegan]

GavrielKay wrote...

We see only two mages who could possibly count towards the idea that mages are constantly under seige by demons waiting for them to screw up:  Connor (who is untrained) and Feynriel (who is extremely special).

I'm talking about a very specific point of lore:  that mages are constantly, unceasingly beset by demons waiting for them to drop their guard and become abominations in the middle of their villages and kill hundreds of people before they are hunted down.

If you're saying that such events of possession and murder should be depicted clearly, so that the PC is really moved by them, I agree. Anything that improves immersion.

I coudln't give a hoot about mages who are tortured, greedy, evil or psycho because whether they may or may not do more damage than other greedy evil psychopaths is not my question.  (Though, for the record, I do not admit that mages are so much more powerful than everyone else that this is a decided issue for me.)

To me this isn't about the power of any mage. We are simply in a gameworld where the Chantry has come to be in the aftermath of what supposedly happened with the magisters of the Imperium. It is a system that has come up based on events that perhaps occurred ages ago - something that supposedly caused the blights. It is for us, as PCs, to decide whether it has moved away from its original intent, if such circumstances were true in the first place.

I want to know why I should believe that good people who've passed their Harrowing can't be allowed to leave the circle and have a normal life with minor supervision along the lines of knowing where they are and maintaining their training.

Why do you think you have to believe anything? As far as I could see, there are no clear lines drawn, no decidedly right or wrong positions to take. Some mages go corrupt and cause great suffering, so the Chantry uses that to try to supervise all mages for life in the Circle. The Chantry says that every mage has the potential to fall victim to a demon, and they believe they can supervise mages better, via templars. Those two points are up for debate, and the game really should allow us to make our own decisions regarding the matter. These are our stories to shape - or should be.

I do not believe the gameplay gives me any evidence to support the Chantry position.

The plot, I suppose, simply makes the Chantry's position obscure. Look at how some others are convinced that the mages need supervision. So whose position is right, yours or theirs? A certain death in Act 2 is supposedly an attempt to put the PC in an emotionally compromised state; a state that, if the game were immersive enough, could have resulted in more sympathy for the Chantry's stance on the matter. But, alas! I think the game isn't so immersive. This is one example of an obvious issue that, to me, needs fixing.

Also, I wanted to comment on plot armor. I don't think the issue has to do merely with plot armor. Even if one assumes for a moment that mages are beset by temptations from demons all the time, there are problems in applying that to a mage player character. If such temptations happens during dreams, for instance, the PC (more precisely, the player) doesn't dream. The PC doesn't sleep, eat, breathe, or do anything like that in the gameworld. His/her consciousness doesn't reside there and hence is usually above such temptations - after all, one has to simulate such psychological conditions for this to work convincingly.

Anyway, I'm yet to see examples of temptations that people want to see more of. If, as examples of temptations, one is looking for something to enhance ones powers, like what happens during "Forbidden Knowledge," well, it's already there (although, I didn't undersand why those demons attack regardless of what happens). It was there during DAO also, with Avernus, with the desire demon in the Fade, etc.

EDIT: After a re-read, realized I had mixed up my thinking somewhat.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 08 juin 2011 - 09:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

But the lore doesn't say that mages are under constant temptation from demons. It says that they can't ever be safe.

Sort of like a gazelle on the Savannah. While it isn't constantly hunted, it is never really safe either.

Demons are predators and mages are the prey. That is why mages can't ever be considered safe, cause you never know when(/of if) a demon is lurking in the shadows of their minds.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
But the lore doesn't say that mages are under constant temptation from demons. It says that they can't ever be safe.

I don't understand what you're saying here.  If they can't ever be safe, why is mageHawke (or Bethany or Merrill) never shown facing down a demon to maintain their freedom?  It is all the same point.

[dragonflight288]

But the lore doesn't say that mages are under constant temptation from demons. It says that they can't ever be safe.

Sort of like a gazelle on the Savannah. While it isn't constantly hunted, it is never really safe either.

Demons are predators and mages are the prey. That is why mages can't ever be considered safe, cause you never know when(/of if) a demon is lurking in the shadows of their minds.

And a simple civilian, let's say a seamstress is walking down the street and takes a shortcut through an alley to get home. She is caught by the coterie, raped and murdered, all her valuables she had on her is stolen. In that case, normal people with swords and arrows are the predators, and a simple woman trying to make a living is the prey.

Do we cut off people's hands to stop them from wielding swords? Do we dictate how non-mages live their lives? Take away their children, prevent them from having families?

I recognize that a mage can fall to a temptation of a demon, but a corrupt noble can fall to the temptation of gold and politics, play political games while the little guy suffers. And when people are down on their luck, they can turn to crime and cause a great deal of harm to everyone around them. No magic needed.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the lore doesn't say that mages are under constant temptation from demons. It says that they can't ever be safe.

Sort of like a gazelle on the Savannah. While it isn't constantly hunted, it is never really safe either.

Demons are predators and mages are the prey. That is why mages can't ever be considered safe, cause you never know when(/of if) a demon is lurking in the shadows of their minds.

And a simple civilian, let's say a seamstress is walking down the street and takes a shortcut through an alley to get home. She is caught by the coterie, raped and murdered, all her valuables she had on her is stolen. In that case, normal people with swords and arrows are the predators, and a simple woman trying to make a living is the prey.

Do we cut off people's hands to stop them from wielding swords? Do we dictate how non-mages live their lives? Take away their children, prevent them from having families?

I recognize that a mage can fall to a temptation of a demon, but a corrupt noble can fall to the temptation of gold and politics, play political games while the little guy suffers. And when people are down on their luck, they can turn to crime and cause a great deal of harm to everyone around them. No magic needed.

Yes, regular people have the capacity to do damage.  However, a mage possessed by a demon will do more than an angry man with a torch.  Also, the Chantry didn't come into being freeing Thedas from a criminal conspiracy or Federation of Pickpockets.  Andraste freed them from the Tevinter Imperium, a Mage empire.  So, mages get the scrutiny. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't see why Mage Hawke not being attacked by demons is much different from Mage Hawke not being immediately set upon by every Templar in Kirkwall for using magic in public. Gameplay and lore aren't perfectly in sync. This is hardly the only issue that it's affecting. If you take gameplay too literally, wouldn't you also have to assume that most inhabitants of Kirkwall are only capable of speaking a small number of sentences that they repeat over and over?

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the lore doesn't say that mages are under constant temptation from demons. It says that they can't ever be safe.

Sort of like a gazelle on the Savannah. While it isn't constantly hunted, it is never really safe either.

Demons are predators and mages are the prey. That is why mages can't ever be considered safe, cause you never know when(/of if) a demon is lurking in the shadows of their minds.

And a simple civilian, let's say a seamstress is walking down the street and takes a shortcut through an alley to get home. She is caught by the coterie, raped and murdered, all her valuables she had on her is stolen. In that case, normal people with swords and arrows are the predators, and a simple woman trying to make a living is the prey.

Do we cut off people's hands to stop them from wielding swords? Do we dictate how non-mages live their lives? Take away their children, prevent them from having families?

I recognize that a mage can fall to a temptation of a demon, but a corrupt noble can fall to the temptation of gold and politics, play political games while the little guy suffers. And when people are down on their luck, they can turn to crime and cause a great deal of harm to everyone around them. No magic needed.

Except that in the case of civilians as prey, they don't turn into abominations when overpowered. Nor does the predators in this case, have a vast potential for destruction, compared to the demons.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
But the lore doesn't say that mages are under constant temptation from demons. It says that they can't ever be safe.

I don't understand what you're saying here.  If they can't ever be safe, why is mageHawke (or Bethany or Merrill) never shown facing down a demon to maintain their freedom?  It is all the same point.

Because Hawke has plot armor.
We don't know how much interaction Bethany and Merrill have with demons, other than we know for a fact that Merrill bargains with them often. Bethany could also have been harassed by demons often, we just don't know, because it is all happeneing inside the mage's head.
Nor does a demon neccesarily try and force possession of a mage. If anyhting the opposite appears to be more common. Trickery. It would only be a rage or hunger demon who would try to forcefully possess a mage. At first anyway.

[dragonflight288]

And Lady Herimann proved you don't have to be a mage to get tricked by a demon and have magical effects go wrong.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We don't know wether or not Lady Harimann was a mage. All we know is that she had never shown any use of magic previously, which I'd reckon would be quite normal for an apostate in a city full of Templars.
Furthermore Kirkwall is has an extremely thin veil, which allows for demons to pass through without aid in some places. It isn't beyond reason that a demon then tries to manipulate a normal human. However, what the demon stands to gain by such a union eludes me. Far more likely that Lady Harimann were simply an apostate hiding her talents, like any apostate would.

[TEWR]

Her daughter says she wasn't a mage and that they've never had magic in their line.



And Allure had been there for some time. During the excavation to expand the property the Harimann family stumbled upon her. The diary entries of Flora Harimann tell this much, as well as the various dialogue in that quest.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 juin 2011 - 02:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

All she says is that there havn't ever been magic in their family before. Then she speculates that her mother may have been overconfident. Lady Harimann may very well just have been skilled at keeping her talents secret.

[Dean_the_Young]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And Lady Herimann proved you don't have to be a mage to get tricked by a demon and have magical effects go wrong.

Lady Herimann also proved that the dangers of a demon-tricked normal are different from a demon-tricked mage.

One is the harm any individual in a position of power can do. The other is... not.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All she says is that there havn't ever been magic in their family before. Then she speculates that her mother may have been overconfident. Lady Harimann may very well just have been skilled at keeping her talents secret.

Her exact words were "We've never had magic in our line", not "We've never had magic in our line before". The word "before" implies she may have been the first.

Now, while I won't rule out the possibility that she was an apostate I also won't rule out that she may have been a normal person. IIRC she doesn't actually cast a spell in the battle with her.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She did wipe the floor with me by casting that bloodwhirl thingy at least once IIRC

[TEWR]

There are a lot of people who use whirl thingies in the game...

Like the Stens.

I'm not exactly sure what the whirl thingies even do.