276 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then don't look at Hawke but at all the other mages. You must accept that Hawke have plot armor.

I take it the reason the kindgom of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, and the Dalish clans haven't been decimated by abominations because of their free mages in their societies is also plot armor?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But all the amges we meet do not. The list of dangerous mages we encounter is long, and should be proof enough that mages are dangerous, even without demonic influence.

The templars and the Chantry are also dangerous, given their ability to legally execute an entire population of men, women, and children.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then add the multitides of abominations we encoutner, and the statements should be proven even further.

You mean the abominations who are literally summoned, like in Enemies Among Us? Or the "waves" of enemies we encounter appearing from thin air? I didn't realize game mechanics was part of lore.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can't use Hawke and the Warden only, to outweigh the multitudes of screw ups amongst the mages.

One can address that The Warden and Hawke represent two mages who don't succumb, which is the case for many other mages. You seem to be looking at the results of a brutal Circle of Kirkwall where rape, torture, illegal tranquility, and murder transpired, and saying mages lashing out is all because of their magical ability, rather than their social conditions under the templars. Quentin is implied to be from the Circle of Starkhaven, giiven Gastard's attempt to find him in among the population of the Circle mages there, and we see how Kirkwall has driven Evelina into becoming an abomination and Huon to lose his mind after both of them were previously sane people.

[TEWR]

That's what I came to in the "Siding with the Templars is fine" thread. She did say she wanted more power, and since magic draws power from the Fade and Kirkwall has a very thin Veil, I believe this to be the case.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then don't look at Hawke but at all the other mages. You must accept that Hawke have plot armor.

I take it the reason the kindgom of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, and the Dalish clans haven't been decimated by abominations because of their free mages in their societies is also plot armor?

..............
Really this tired old horse again? Are you really not going to let that one go? How many times must I explain to you, that Abominations aren't neccesarily going to devastate an entire nation, but they are going to cause a lot of death and destruction?

Let's see if we can break it for you real simple, one last time then.

Let's take a land like Bangladesh. It has always suffered from natural disasters, like hurricanes and tsunamis, yet the country still stand. Since the country still stands, does that mean hurricanes and tsunamis aren't dangerous?

You base you ideas of their societies on absolutely nothing but your own idealistic thoughts and dreams of fearies and unicorns. We got one meagre codex entry on the Chasind, Avvar, and Rivain, and yet you cling to them as some sort of mage utopia. We don't know how often an Abomination brings death and destruction to the Rivaini, Chasind, Avvar or even the Dalish. We got no clue to that at all. So it is useless to speculate. All we can do is acknowledge their existance, and wait and see what is going on within their "borders" (well knowing Chasind, Dalish, and Avvar don't have borders)

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But all the amges we meet do not. The list of dangerous mages we encounter is long, and should be proof enough that mages are dangerous, even without demonic influence.

The templars and the Chantry are also dangerous, given their ability to legally execute an entire population of men, women, and children.

Yet those are entire organizations of men. A single mage can bring the amount of destruction it would take an army of regular men to achieve. Were a Grand Cleric to give a command, she is still dependant on her subjects to bear it to fruition. A mage has to but think it, and boom.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then add the multitides of abominations we encoutner, and the statements should be proven even further.

You mean the abominations who are literally summoned, like in Enemies Among Us? Or the "waves" of enemies we encounter appearing from thin air? I didn't realize game mechanics was part of lore.

I mean all the abominations we encounter throughout the game. Both the faceless masses and the ones integral to the plot.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can't use Hawke and the Warden only, to outweigh the multitudes of screw ups amongst the mages.

One can address that The Warden and Hawke represent two mages who don't succumb, which is the case for many other mages. You seem to be looking at the results of a brutal Circle of Kirkwall where rape, torture, illegal tranquility, and murder transpired, and saying mages lashing out is all because of their magical ability, rather than their social conditions under the templars. Quentin is implied to be from the Circle of Starkhaven, giiven Gastard's attempt to find him in among the population of the Circle mages there, and we see how Kirkwall has driven Evelina into becoming an abomination and Huon to lose his mind after both of them were previously sane people.

No you can't use the Warden and Hawke as such examples. They are above the lore, they got their plot armor. Even though both are tempted by demons several times.
Huon, Evelina, and Quentin were all driven insane by having lost something the Circles forbid them to have. That simply proves why the Circles doesn't allow mages to raise children, or in some cases marry.

[LobselVith8]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Yes, regular people have the capacity to do damage.  However, a mage possessed by a demon will do more than an angry man with a torch.  Also, the Chantry didn't come into being freeing Thedas from a criminal conspiracy or Federation of Pickpockets.  Andraste freed them from the Tevinter Imperium, a Mage empire.  So, mages get the scrutiny. 

Tevinter enslaved mages and non-mages alike, and it's the Magisters who rule there. Add to that the view some have that Andraste was actually a mage (as described in a book you can provide to Wynne from Orzammar), as well as the fact that we don't whether Shartan was a mage or not, and it's not as clear cut. Mages get scrutiny because the Chantry is preaching that they are cursed, and this is why Andrastian society has a negative view of mages that contrasts sharply with the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish (who were also enslaved by the Imperium), and the Rivanni.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Hawke has plot armor.
We don't know how much interaction Bethany and Merrill have with demons, other than we know for a fact that Merrill bargains with them often.

By often, you mean the one time she made a deal with Audacity to learn blood magic? Or are you talking about when she summoned a spirit to take down the barrier at Sundermount, which is no different than a spirit healer summoning a spirit to enchance a healing spell?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Bethany could also have been harassed by demons often, we just don't know, because it is all happeneing inside the mage's head.

Wouldn't Bethany have mentioned this, like she mentions her many other concerns to Hawke? And if this was the case, what's the point of the Harrowing?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nor does a demon neccesarily try and force possession of a mage. If anyhting the opposite appears to be more common. Trickery. It would only be a rage or hunger demon who would try to forcefully possess a mage. At first anyway.

There are also entire populations of enchanters, mages, and apprentices across the continent who never succumb to demons.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

..............
Really this tired old horse again? Are you really not going to let that one go? How many times must I explain to you, that Abominations aren't neccesarily going to devastate an entire nation, but they are going to cause a lot of death and destruction?

As much death and destruction as the templars caused with the execution of an entire population of people who weren't responsible for Anders' actions?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Let's see if we can break it for you real simple, one last time then.

Let's take a land like Bangladesh. It has always suffered from natural disasters, like hurricanes and tsunamis, yet the country still stand. Since the country still stands, does that mean hurricanes and tsunamis aren't dangerous?

You base you ideas of their societies on absolutely nothing but your own idealistic thoughts and dreams of fearies and unicorns. We got one meagre codex entry on the Chasind, Avvar, and Rivain, and yet you cling to them as some sort of mage utopia.

I address them as societies where mages aren't controlled like they are in the Andrastian nations, I never claimed they were We don't know how often an Abomination brings death and destruction to the Rivaini, Chasind, Avvar or even the Dalish. We got no clue to that at all. So it is useless to speculate. All we can do is acknowledge their existance, and wait and see what is going on within their "borders" (well knowing Chasind, Dalish, and Avvar don't have borders)

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yet those are entire organizations of men. A single mage can bring the amount of destruction it would take an army of regular men to achieve. Were a Grand Cleric to give a command, she is still dependant on her subjects to bear it to fruition. A mage has to but think it, and boom.

Abominations can be defeated by people; you make them seem like they are an unstoppable force when they can be defeated. Even Merrill points out that an elven mage becoming an abomination is hunted down and killed by the members of the clan.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No you can't use the Warden and Hawke as such examples. They are above the lore, they got their plot armor. Even though both are tempted by demons several times.

Yes, I can use them, because they are central to the lore; the stories of The Warden's explots is even written in two codex entries describing the events of the Fifth Blight.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Huon, Evelina, and Quentin were all driven insane by having lost something the Circles forbid them to have. That simply proves why the Circles doesn't allow mages to raise children, or in some cases marry.

Huon and Evelina were driven insane after being imprisoned in the Gallows; Huon became deranged, while Evelina became an abomination. Quentin's time with the Starkhaven Circle apparently made him as mentally unbalanced as Grace and Decimus.

[TEWR]

Starkhaven must have allowed marriage if Quentin was married. So Emperor Sahlertz you can't say he was forbidden to be married.

[Dean_the_Young]

There are a couple loopholes: Quentin could have been married before going to the Circle, or during an escape, or some other circumstance that, while not allowed in advance, was not redacted.

[EmperorSahlertz]

That wasn't waht I said at all. I said that he became insane because he lost his beloved wife.
Huon got a case of the nuts after being seperated from his wife aswell.
Evelina got a bad case of demons after not getting the support for the children she cared for.

None of those cases can be blamed on bad treatment within the Circles. On the contrary they can be used to enforce the argument that mages shouldn't be allowed to raise children, or even to marry.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 juin 2011 - 07:06 .

[Torax]

The thing to remember is just that Kirkwall is different from other locations. All mages are different. Sure a mage "could" be more dangerous than a normal person. But at the same time a mage is preyed upon by demons as well. A non supportive Order works against the stability a mage would require to better resist the lust and wants of the demons calling to them. The problem is when the Chantry tends to stay out of things and obviously may even use lyrium to help control the order but it only goes so far. The Chantry rules to a large degree while trying wash it's hands clean of the conflicts between the Circle and the order. Almost to a point of keeping a blind eye until it's too late in the case of Kirkwall.

Can we even keep that as a rule for the 3 groups as a rule for all of Thedas? No we cannot. A magic user can be dangerous. But even as Flemeth pointed out in Origins, Men's hearts can be darker than any tainted creature. Magic users and normal people who lust for death can cause harm to so many. Like the crazy elf that attempted to blow up a part of low town in Act 2. The Chantry knows much and I am sure hides much like so many controlling parties. It's the cookie cutter for writing. To a point the Chantry is like the Council in ME. It exists and many follow them blindly. But they blind themselves to any conflicts in an attempt keep the facade of pure and right despite the death and destruction before them.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

..............
Really this tired old horse again? Are you really not going to let that one go? How many times must I explain to you, that Abominations aren't neccesarily going to devastate an entire nation, but they are going to cause a lot of death and destruction?

As much death and destruction as the templars caused with the execution of an entire population of people who weren't responsible for Anders' actions?

Per capita? You really have nothing to argue they're any less than the results of a situation of Anders' own instigation.

On an absolute number basis? Scale makes any argument there... difficult. There are plenty of societal structures that, while sustainable on a small scale, are not on large. Andrastian circles are a continent-scale system. Riviana is a small nation. While the flaws of a small scale system easily translate when scaled up, the benefits don't.

I address them as societies where mages aren't controlled like they are in the Andrastian nations, I never claimed they were....

Actually, your position over time lies entirely that they are significantly better, in that they disprove fears of mages.

Abominations can be defeated by people; you make them seem like they are an unstoppable force when they can be defeated. Even Merrill points out that an elven mage becoming an abomination is hunted down and killed by the members of the clan.

Abominations, by the lore, are entirely disproportionate. One abomination can take five, or fifty, people to bring down. Even more. Not on any particular unique quality of an individual, but simply on the nature of the possession.

One man is one man. Abominations, by the lore, are far more. That it takes an entire clan to hunt down an Abomination is a mark of the danger, not a mitigation.

Yes, I can use them, because they are central to the lore; the stories of The Warden's explots is even written in two codex entries describing the events of the Fifth Blight.

No, you really can't. The Warden and Hawke are no more representative of the average mage than they are of the common foot soldier.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

..............
Really this tired old horse again? Are you really not going to let that one go? How many times must I explain to you, that Abominations aren't neccesarily going to devastate an entire nation, but they are going to cause a lot of death and destruction?

As much death and destruction as the templars caused with the execution of an entire population of people who weren't responsible for Anders' actions?

Probably more, since there wouldn't be any Templars to stop the Abominations immediately.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yet those are entire organizations of men. A single mage can bring the amount of destruction it would take an army of regular men to achieve. Were a Grand Cleric to give a command, she is still dependant on her subjects to bear it to fruition. A mage has to but think it, and boom.

Abominations can be defeated by people; you make them seem like they are an unstoppable force when they can be defeated. Even Merrill points out that an elven mage becoming an abomination is hunted down and killed by the members of the clan.

They can be. But according to the lore that is a rarity. Stick them enough times with asword and they die as any monster. The tricky part is finding them, cornering them, and then survivng for long enough to actually stick them with your sword.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No you can't use the Warden and Hawke as such examples. They are above the lore, they got their plot armor. Even though both are tempted by demons several times.

Yes, I can use them, because they are central to the lore; the stories of The Warden's explots is even written in two codex entries describing the events of the Fifth Blight.

But you use them out of context. You use them and then claim that since these two don't have encounters with demons (though both do several times), no mage does. Or that since these two don't have it tough, no mage does. You have to look at the mage population as a whole. The Warden and Hawke aren't the norm, they are the exceptions.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That wasn't waht I said at all. I said that he became insane because he lost his beloved wife.
Huon got a case of the nuts after being seperated from his wife aswell.
Evelina got a bad case of demons after not getting the support for the children she cared for.

None of those cases can be blamed on bad treatment within the Circles. On the contrary they can be used to enforce the argument that mages shouldn't be allowed to raise children, or even to marry.

no you did say that. Here:

Huon, Evelina, and Quentin were all driven insane by having lost something the Circles forbid them to have

Now, you can't say that because of those instances mages shouldn't marry. What about Malcolm Hawke? He was married, was an apostate, and didn't succumb to demons. What about Wilhelm? He was married and didn't succumb to demons. In fact, he trapped a demon and studied it. His son also had a child, whom he raised. Wilhelm's son and granddaughter both have magical talents. They seem to be doing fine.

You also don't know what happened between the time Huon was taken away and the time we saw him. Nyssa said it happened 10 years prior IIRC and that she hadn't seen him for 10 years. I pin the blame on his mental breakdown on that fact. Given that the Kirkwall Circle houses Templars who abuse their authority, who's to say what he did and didn't endure in that timeframe? Being separated from a person you love for a long time tends to lead to you becoming traumatized.

Evelina was locked up immediately. The Templars branded her an apostate when she originally had no qualms with living in the Kirkwall Circle. The fact that they wouldn't even try to help these orphans, something the supposedly "good" Chantry does (and the Templars are an extension of the Chantry), must've made her resent Kirkwall

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 juin 2011 - 07:59 .

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Per capita? You really have nothing to argue they're any less than the results of a situation of Anders' own instigation.

Which transpired because of what Ser Alrik did to Karl, which was making him tranquil illegally. It goes back to the Chantry controlled Circles, which ignited Anders' actions in the first place.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Actually, your position over time lies entirely that they are significantly better, in that they disprove fears of mages.

Addressing the fact that Andrastians are taught to fear mages by their religious institution and contrasting that with the other cultures who don't hold those views because of their free mages is what I discussed.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Abominations, by the lore, are entirely disproportionate. One abomination can take five, or fifty, people to bring down. Even more. Not on any particular unique quality of an individual, but simply on the nature of the possession.

One man is one man. Abominations, by the lore, are far more. That it takes an entire clan to hunt down an Abomination is a mark of the danger, not a mitigation.

Perhaps that should be reason enough not to imprison mages in a toxic enviornment that seems to break some mages down to the point of driving them insane or becoming abominations.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, you really can't. The Warden and Hawke are no more representative of the average mage than they are of the common foot soldier.

Average? I'm not discussing average. The Warden was the best of his generation, and Hawke is a proficient combatant. However, they can be examples of two mages who never succumb to becoming abominations.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As much death and destruction as the templars caused with the execution of an entire population of people who weren't responsible for Anders' actions?

Probably more, since there wouldn't be any Templars to stop the Abominations immediately.

Like in Ferelden, where The Warden and his moiety crew needed to stop the abominations? Or in Kirkwall, where Hawke can defeat dragons, demons, abominations, and even templars.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abominations can be defeated by people; you make them seem like they are an unstoppable force when they can be defeated. Even Merrill points out that an elven mage becoming an abomination is hunted down and killed by the members of the clan.

They can be. But according to the lore that is a rarity. Stick them enough times with asword and they die as any monster. The tricky part is finding them, cornering them, and then survivng for long enough to actually stick them with your sword.

Or attacking them from a distance, like an archer or a mage can.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, I can use them, because they are central to the lore; the stories of The Warden's explots is even written in two codex entries describing the events of the Fifth Blight.

But you use them out of context. You use them and then claim that since these two don't have encounters with demons (though both do several times), no mage does. Or that since these two don't have it tough, no mage does. You have to look at the mage population as a whole. The Warden and Hawke aren't the norm, they are the exceptions.

That's not what I'm saying - I'm pointing out the Harrowing is intended to teach mages to resist the temptations of demons, which wouldn't be necessary if mages were constantly being tempted by demons since it would be a daily occurance. And The Warden and Hawke can be two examples of mages who don't succumb to demons, which we can see is possible for other mages, like First Enchanter Irving, Velanna, Keeper Lanaya, Aneirin the Healer, Bethany, and others who demonstrate that mages can resist demons.

[MichaelFinnegan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Probably more, since there wouldn't be any Templars to stop the Abominations immediately.

Supposing the Templars themselves somehow caused an abomination to be, what would you say then? You can read the first half of the codex entry on abominations to see what I mean.

The issue isn't simply that a powerful abomination takes many men to bring down, it is also whether the Chantry with its Templar arm is really doing the right thing - by trying to shackle all mages, creating more fear, more unrest, and so on and so forth. Could the Chantry inadvertantly be one of the architects of some chaos to come? To me, the question is also about freedom and justice to those mages who aren't ever going to fall to temptation; who have to give up such a lot in their lives under the Chantry's ever-present supervision.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Abominations, by the lore, are entirely disproportionate. One abomination can take five, or fifty, people to bring down. Even more. Not on any particular unique quality of an individual, but simply on the nature of the possession.

Which "individual" are you referring to, exactly? If by the nature of the possession you're referring to the power of the abomination not being decided by the power of the mage but by that of the demon, it is true. It is also true that the success of the possession itself is to a great extent inversely proportional to the power of the mage to resist it.

One man is one man. Abominations, by the lore, are far more. That it takes an entire clan to hunt down an Abomination is a mark of the danger, not a mitigation.

Not entirely true. One man with the right means, whatever that is, can accomplish just about the same amount of devastation, if not more. Regarding the likelihood of that happening vs. the likelihood of a mage deciding to become possessed by a demon powerful enough to cause such devastation, it's anybody's guess. And how many demons of such power do we know to exist in the Fade? In short, how does one even begin to quantify such things anyway?

Not addressing anyone specifically now: The issue to me, as I've said earlier, is whether the Chantry has somehow overstepped its bounds, whether it has perverted one of its original purposes, which I assume to be to try to prevent devastation of the scale that the ancient Tevinter Imperium allegedly caused. Simply put - whether the means it now employs really justifies those ends, which it was set up for.

[dragonflight288]

And before anyone mentions Fenyriel being plauged by demons in his sleep, remember he was an exceptional case. He could enter the fade at will, without lyrium or blood. He may have been plauged nightly because of his unique abilities, but the most common mage is just like any other man and woman outside the fade.

[astreqwerty]

i find it funny when people express their opinions so eaily about the evilness of chantry when its clearly a paralel for christianity...bashing real religion is always a taboo..now bashing virtual religion never hurt anyone

[dragonflight288]

Well, if Thedas were real, all of us pro-mages would likely be killed or tranquilized because of what we say. The Chantry is similar to medieval religions, where being a different religion from the powers that be was a death sentence. I bet if we started talking about real religions in today's modern world the same way we discuss a fictional world would likely make us some of the most hated and unpopular people.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure what the commander whirl does. It seems to make the mooks regenerate health quickly?

Buffs to nearby minions, I'd assume, like +attack, +defense, and/or even +health regeneration.

[dragonflight288]

Some templars have that ability. A whirling blue aura causes regeneration to their allies. No magic needed...although it can be debated if what the templars do is a form of magic accessible to non-mages. Seems to fall into the school of spirit's mana clash.

[River5]

astreqwerty wrote...

i find it funny when people express their opinions so eaily about the evilness of chantry when its clearly a paralel for christianity...bashing real religion is always a taboo..now bashing virtual religion never hurt anyone

Well, let me put it this way...  I would happily bash the Christian religion about the way things were during the Crusades, the inquisitions, etc.

Just like I wouldn't bash the Chantry if believing or not in Andraste and the Maker was a personal choice one made for himself or herself, and it had no further repercussion on Thedas' society.

I'm always against any religion seizing political power whether it is in reality, or in a virtual universe.  As soon religious beliefs allow you to start controlling, torturing, or imprisoning people.  And being an apostate (a.k.a. one who forsakes his or her religion) is a punishable crime, I'll bash!  Lol!

Modifié par River5, 10 juin 2011 - 12:23 .

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
But you use them out of context. You use them and then claim that since these two don't have encounters with demons (though both do several times), no mage does. Or that since these two don't have it tough, no mage does. You have to look at the mage population as a whole. The Warden and Hawke aren't the norm, they are the exceptions.

The argument has been made that you can't let even a trained mage live a normal life because all mages are demon magnets who could become an abomination at any time for no good reason at all.  That mages are literally walking time bombs who could "go off" due to a big sneeze or something.  My original argument was only that if the devs/writers really wanted to make that point, then a mageHawke (or Warden, or Merrill, or Morrigan etc) shouldn't be able to cruise through the games as though it wasn't the case. 

There seems to be a group of posters who, when calculating the "most good" for the "most people" don't seem to take into account all the lives of the mages being kept prisoner due to fear that some among them might have in an alternate universe woken up possessed and murdered their village.  I don't get the "greater good" in keeping thousands of innocent mages prisoner so that the occasional hundreds of non-mages would be saved.  Why are the mage lives worth less in this equation?  I don't recall any lore that says a single abomination can kill hundreds of thousands of people thus requiring no mercy be given to any.  They mention less than a hundred generally who die to any given abomination.  It just doesn't add up to thousands of mages kept locked up for 1000 years.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 10 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[dragonflight288]

Because in the minds of every pro-templar and anti-mage person alive, every mage has the potential to turn into an abomination. Potential being the key word. Just like every average Joe walking across the street could be a high ranking member of the mafia/yakuza or some gang that murders and rapes hundreds of people within a year. But let's blame the people who only want the right to shoot lightening at fools, we're flashy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Because in the minds of every pro-templar and anti-mage person alive, every mage has the potential to turn into an abomination. Potential being the key word. Just like every average Joe walking across the street could be a high ranking member of the mafia/yakuza or some gang that murders and rapes hundreds of people within a year. But let's blame the people who only want the right to shoot lightening at fools, we're flashy.

The major difference being that being part of a mafia is a choice. Every mage is never more safe than the gazelle on the savannah. Never. While a normal person can be considered safe if you are within a crime free zone.
You simply can't ever know when a mage is going to buckle under the pressure. It could be a mage who had trained for many years, and had even attained rank within his Circle (read: Uldred) Who suddenly buckle under the pressure of demons, or it could be the simplest of apprentices who doesn't even know the difference between primal and spirit spells.
The matter of fact is, the sheer destructive potential of a single mage gone awry, far outweighs the same potential from a normal human being.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
But you use them out of context. You use them and then claim that since these two don't have encounters with demons (though both do several times), no mage does. Or that since these two don't have it tough, no mage does. You have to look at the mage population as a whole. The Warden and Hawke aren't the norm, they are the exceptions.

The argument has been made that you can't let even a trained mage live a normal life because all mages are demon magnets who could become an abomination at any time for no good reason at all.  That mages are literally walking time bombs who could "go off" due to a big sneeze or something.  My original argument was only that if the devs/writers really wanted to make that point, then a mageHawke (or Warden, or Merrill, or Morrigan etc) shouldn't be able to cruise through the games as though it wasn't the case. 

There seems to be a group of posters who, when calculating the "most good" for the "most people" don't seem to take into account all the lives of the mages being kept prisoner due to fear that some among them might have in an alternate universe woken up possessed and murdered their village.  I don't get the "greater good" in keeping thousands of innocent mages prisoner so that the occasional hundreds of non-mages would be saved.  Why are the mage lives worth less in this equation?  I don't recall any lore that says a single abomination can kill hundreds of thousands of people thus requiring no mercy be given to any.  They mention less than a hundred generally who die to any given abomination.  It just doesn't add up to thousands of mages kept locked up for 1000 years.

I would gladly let a hundred mages become abominations under Templar pressure, if it kept a thousand innocents from being harmed by a single abominations, which would otherwise have been created. A hundred mage lives does not outweigh a thousand, no matter how "good" the mages are.
The only problem with this line of thought is: You can't ever prove you are right. It is the tale of unsung reliability. You can only prove that you are wrong, when your system is no longer in charge. You simply have to ask for the people's trust, in taht you are doing what is best.
Of course there are always going to be the malcontents who would rather see the world burn, than let an "injustice" pass.