276 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The matter of fact is, the sheer destructive potential of a single mage gone awry, far outweighs the same potential from a normal human being.

And that statement is why people keep bringing up Rivain and the Dalish etc.  Because there doesn't seem to be any real proof that a mage going awry now and then causes such extreme damage.  These other societies seem to remain intact despite the occasional hunting down of a mage gone bad.  Dealing with the problem when it happens seems to work just fine.

[dragonflight288]

The entire circle was set up to prevent another Imperium. Mages have power, mages are at risk. No one disputes that. But everyday citizens are allowed basic freedoms that you are willing to deny mages simply because of what they are. What if you were a mage? Born as one, you weren't discovered by templars until you were roughly in your teen years. Your parents love you and try to hide you. You are educated concerning the dangers of the Fade and demons. You know how to defend yourself.

Then at the age of roughly sixteen, you are torn from your parents, told your an abomination in the sight of the Maker, your talents are nothing more than a curse, you're locked up and if a templar wants to have their wild way with you, should you defend yourself you are branded a maleficar and are either tranquilized or killed.

Do mages need to be policed? Yes, but I believe they can work together with templars to police themselves and allow themselves to have freedoms and rights that the Circle denies them.

The right to have a family, the right to raise children. The right to learn magic in a safe environment without the fear of being gutted because they want to see their family.

And yes, I acknowledge there are mages who turn to blood magic and cause a great deal of harm because they are simply rotten. And there are a lot more mages who turn to blood magic because it's the only way to defend themselves. There are templars who honestly want to help mages, and there are templars who abuse their power and force mages to extremes in order to survive.

There are logical points to being pro-templar, and there are logical points to being pro-mage.

The key is too remember that the Circle was designed to prevent the rise of another Imperium, but I don't think that is likely to happen.

EDIT: And I'm not willing to see the world burn rather than have an injustice happen. But the templars are guilty of just as many injustices as some mages, and the consequences are just as powerful and dangerous as what a mage can do. Not physically, but politically and militarily. When the templars and the mages fight a war, who do you think will get caught in the cross-fire? The farmers, the merchants, and the innocent townsfolk who try to live their lives. Their suffering would be just as much the templars fault as it would be the mages.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, if Thedas were real, all of us pro-mages would likely be killed or tranquilized because of what we say. The Chantry is similar to medieval religions, where being a different religion from the powers that be was a death sentence.

Unlikely, since there was an entire fraternity of mages that was based entirely on advocating for freedom from the Chantry and they were not all killed or made tranquil. in fact there would be no point in using the Rite of Tranquility on nonmages. The whole point of doing so would be to ensure that demons cannot posses them. In fact techncially every fraternity other than the Loyalists or Aquitarians are advocating something other than the status quo. The Chantry doesn't really make it a policy to brutally and ruthlessly root out any heresy amonst it's population or strictly impose all it's idealogy on the common folk. It doesn't even really spent a lot of time rooting out foreign unbeleivers either. There are a lot of people throughout Thedas who aren't part of the Chantry and there's no sign that the Divine has been trying to stir up a holy war to wipe out the Chasind or Rivaini or Dalish. Even the Exalted March on the Dales was an escalation of an already existing conlict between Orlais and the elves.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 10 juin 2011 - 04:38 .

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A hundred mage lives does not outweigh a thousand, no matter how "good" the mages are.

But there is no evidence that you are trading 100 mage lives for 1000 non-mages.  From what I see in game, we're trading 1000 mage lives for 100 non-mages. 

I know, I know...  the game throws a bunch blood mages and abominations at us...  but, numbers-wise they are nothing compared to the thousands in circles around the world.

[dragonflight288]

Look at Ser Alrik and his illegal tranquilizing.. Done for the slightest crimes. He threatened rape and tranquilization on a girl who only wanted to visit her family.

If you manage to get the letter off the templars when doing Ander's quest in Act 1, the letter states Alrik is perfoming the Rite of Tranquility illegally. Meredith should have done something about that, but didn't. The Chantry should have investigated but didn't.

Yes, there are fraternities, but mages are only barely tolerated by the chantry as a rule of thumb. Regardless if you're a libertarian to a loyalist. You're still less than human in the eyes of the chantry, having been cursed by the maker with magic.

And yes, they do impose their religion on the common folk. Take Rivain after the Qunari retreated (this is in the codex entry). The northern islands were home to these native born Rivaini, but they had willingly converted to the Qun. The chantry couldn't convert them, and they wouldn't leave, so the Chantry killed them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Templars in Kirkwall had become corrupt because they had become too powerful. I don't see any evidence to suggest the practices in Kirkwall happen everywhere.

The Fraternities are still tolerated in any case and presumably have been for a very long time.

As far as the Rivaini go, that was after their armies had regained territory in the war. My point was that a) they aren't busy trying to conquer all the rest of Rivain anymore and the citizens of Andrastian nations aren't under constant threat of being accused of heresy and killed.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 10 juin 2011 - 05:01 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Some templars have that ability. A whirling blue aura causes regeneration to their allies. No magic needed...although it can be debated if what the templars do is a form of magic accessible to non-mages. Seems to fall into the school of spirit's mana clash.

I find that healing ability of a templar lieutenant weird. A templar is essentially a debuffer, and particularly a mage hunter. And if he is also a warrior he could be a buffer for his party - using rally or battle synergy, for instance. I don't know how templars can actually heal others. If a templar army/force doesn't contain mages, they give the healing spell to their lieutenant, to make fights more "interesting" I suppose. I think that's all there is to it - I see nothing in the lore to back it up. *shrug*

Mana clash is different, though. One could argue that templar warriors come with abilities to drain enemy mana/stamina or enhance party mana/stamina, not anything to boost health.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The matter of fact is, the sheer destructive potential of a single mage gone awry, far outweighs the same potential from a normal human being.

And that statement is why people keep bringing up Rivain and the Dalish etc.  Because there doesn't seem to be any real proof that a mage going awry now and then causes such extreme damage.  These other societies seem to remain intact despite the occasional hunting down of a mage gone bad.  Dealing with the problem when it happens seems to work just fine.

But that is the problem. The Circle is a system of unsung succes, but with obvious failures. You can't know how many lives the Circles have saved by their function, but you can very clearly see the ones who have lost their lives to it.
That is why some people find the Circle's reprehensible. But they usually aren't lokking at the big picture, or even for long enougha tthe issue, to realize that you can't show the succeses of the Circles, but only the failures.
You could theoretically go back and count every single mage who had become an abomination because of the Circles. But it is impossible to count all the mages who didn't become an abomination becuase of the Circle. Nor can you get a direct count of lives saved by it.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But that is the problem. The Circle is a system of unsung succes, but with obvious failures.

Like causing a continential revolution among its Circle mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can't know how many lives the Circles have saved by their function, but you can very clearly see the ones who have lost their lives to it.

Including the mass murder of entire populations of people.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is why some people find the Circle's reprehensible. But they usually aren't lokking at the big picture, or even for long enougha tthe issue, to realize that you can't show the succeses of the Circles, but only the failures.

People are looking at the big picture, that's precisely why they disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles in the first place.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You could theoretically go back and count every single mage who had become an abomination because of the Circles. But it is impossible to count all the mages who didn't become an abomination becuase of the Circle. Nor can you get a direct count of lives saved by it.

You could also theoretically try to calculate how many lives the Chantry controlled Circles have ruined and destroyed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But that is the problem. The Circle is a system of unsung succes, but with obvious failures.

Like causing a continential revolution among its Circle mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can't know how many lives the Circles have saved by their function, but you can very clearly see the ones who have lost their lives to it.

Including the mass murder of entire populations of people.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is why some people find the Circle's reprehensible. But they usually aren't lokking at the big picture, or even for long enougha tthe issue, to realize that you can't show the succeses of the Circles, but only the failures.

People are looking at the big picture, that's precisely why they disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles in the first place.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You could theoretically go back and count every single mage who had become an abomination because of the Circles. But it is impossible to count all the mages who didn't become an abomination becuase of the Circle. Nor can you get a direct count of lives saved by it.

You could also theoretically try to calculate how many lives the Chantry controlled Circles have ruined and destroyed.

And I rest my case.
Lob is the prime example of a man not looking at the big picture. He sees only the failures and refuse to see the big picture, because he only bothers to look at what he sees as an injustice. He refuses to even give thought to the idea that some mages trained under the Circles owe their lives to the Circles becuase they would otherwise have fallen to the sway of demons. He is too busy clinging to the few mages who die because of the Circles, instead of looking at the ones who live.
His entire post pretty much proves what I said. And he didn't even bother to read it in its fulness to understand it.

[dragonflight288]

The big picture is simple. The Chantry is a bastion of corruption. They have had a great deal of power for 1000 years. And people with power, mages or not, will always want more power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The Chantry has had absolute power over mages and their families for a millennium. Anything that could threaten that power, say allowing mages too have a couple more freedoms, but still policing themselves, is something the chantry would be dead set against. Possiblyup to the point of the sword.

Those of us who support mages have never once argued getting rid of templars entirely. We have never once argued that a mage who turns into an abomination is harmless...quite the opposite. But we do argue that the corruption of the entire system allows injustices and abuses to occur which drives everyday, law abiding mages to desperate acts in order to survive, putting them at a greater risk. We are not speaking for the idiots who practice blood magic and work with demons of their own volition.

The system creates just as many problems as you say it theoretically fixes. And that's the problem, it's theoretical. No in-game evidence or lore to support that the system as whole, across all of Thedas, actually works.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Exactly. Only when it is gone will you ever see if it worked or not. Now with mage freedom on the horizon, we will truly see who was right and who was wrong.
On a side note: There are lots of evidence in the game that says the Circles keep the commoners save from Abominations. Pretty much every single codex entry we got about Templars, mages and demons, shows us how they combat those threats, and keep the people safe.

The problem is that people have decried the Circle system as a failure based on the misteps that have been made, while not acknowledging that the Circle can very well have saved many more lives than have been lost.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The problem is that people have decried the Circle system as a failure based on the misteps that have been made, while not acknowledging that the Circle can very well have saved many more lives than have been lost.

And the problem from the other side is that a lot of mage lives have been wrecked (and their families) in order to exploit that "may well have" idea.  Generally I think where people's lives are concerned, there is an obligation to limit freedom as little as possible to hold society together.  I don't think the Chantry has the slightest interest in working with the mages to find a happy medium. 

So then you either go the pacifist route and try to talk the Chantry into compromise, or the violent route and try to force it. I see no evidence that the peaceful route was likely to work.  But there will always be folks who believe violence is always the wrong answer, no matter what it might solve.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since the Chantry is trying to prevent the war, I'd say they show a willingness to find a peaceful solution.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Since the Chantry is trying to prevent the war, I'd say they show a willingness to find a peaceful solution.

With ulterior motvies being self preservation no doubt. Also their peaceful solution is only offered when things get so out of hand that it threatens their own existence

Modifié par DKJaigen, 10 juin 2011 - 09:26 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

When else do you offer peaceful resolution? You do not offer peace, when you can with less effort and cost, force your own victory.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When else do you offer peaceful resolution? You do not offer peace, when you can with less effort and cost, force your own victory.

Or desperation. this entire situation could have been prevented by  the chantry so peaceful solutions is not something they do unless they are desperate.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No one stands to gain anything from the war. Regardless of the Chantry's intentions, peaceful solution is the only sensible option in this case.

[DKJaigen]

The mages qunari and the tevinter imperium have a whole lot to gain from the war so your argument is invailid

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Exactly. Only when it is gone will you ever see if it worked or not. Now with mage freedom on the horizon, we will truly see who was right and who was wrong.
On a side note: There are lots of evidence in the game that says the Circles keep the commoners save from Abominations. Pretty much every single codex entry we got about Templars, mages and demons, shows us how they combat those threats, and keep the people safe.

The problem is that people have decried the Circle system as a failure based on the misteps that have been made, while not acknowledging that the Circle can very well have saved many more lives than have been lost.

It is a failure otherwise you would not have a worldwar . But in previous discussion you where the one to dismiss a secular antimagic army controlled by the mages or state. The current system is a not a good one and in dire need of improvement. I dont see why you dont wish it improved.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mages stand to gain least of all. If the mages pursue this war, they will merely prove why the Chantry has been considering them so severe a threat. They will never find an equal place with the commoners. The only thing the mages stand to gain, is perhaps some sort of twisted moral victory. Good luck have that feed you during the winter.

I was also only speaking of the involved participants. The Qunari stands to gain it all, without even having used any resources. Tevinter won't gain anyhting from this. They are already busy trying to keep the Qunari back, and with the rest of Thedas weakened, they won't have any support for when the Qunari attack again.

The argument stands.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Exactly. Only when it is gone will you ever see if it worked or not. Now with mage freedom on the horizon, we will truly see who was right and who was wrong.
On a side note: There are lots of evidence in the game that says the Circles keep the commoners save from Abominations. Pretty much every single codex entry we got about Templars, mages and demons, shows us how they combat those threats, and keep the people safe.

The problem is that people have decried the Circle system as a failure based on the misteps that have been made, while not acknowledging that the Circle can very well have saved many more lives than have been lost.

It is a failure otherwise you would not have a worldwar . But in previous discussion you where the one to dismiss a secular antimagic army controlled by the mages or state. The current system is a not a good one and in dire need of improvement. I dont see why you dont wish it improved.

There are simpler ways to improve a system, than start a world war you know...

[sphinxess]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No one stands to gain anything from the war. Regardless of the Chantry's intentions, peaceful solution is the only sensible option in this case.

A great number of groups stand to gain if the chantry loses control or breaks up into seperate pieces.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The mages stand to gain least of all. If the mages pursue this war, they will merely prove why the Chantry has been considering them so severe a threat. They will never find an equal place with the commoners. The only thing the mages stand to gain, is perhaps some sort of twisted moral victory. Good luck have that feed you during the winter.

I was also only speaking of the involved participants. The Qunari stands to gain it all, without even having used any resources. Tevinter won't gain anyhting from this. They are already busy trying to keep the Qunari back, and with the rest of Thedas weakened, they won't have any support for when the Qunari attack again.

The argument stands.

No your arguments are invalid. The mages dont need the commoners the commoners however need the mages for the spawn the tevinter imperium or qunari and thats something that will happen in time and they will reject the chantry when they realise that chantry cannot protect them.,

And the tevinter imperium is not holding the qunari back but they are just having a stalemate. And furrthemore the tevinter imperium doesnt rely on the other nations to hold the qunari back they never had to but i doubt that they wouldnt take advantage of the situation and try to take over nevarra. Anderfelds is not logical as being a poor ****hole.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Perhaps a few groups stand to gain in the short term, but in the long term, this war will only doom Thedas (or enlighten, depending on your point of view I suppose) to the Qun.