506 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

You can still be friends with Izzy/Fenris/Merill. You can be friends with Anders to a point(and with Anders, it has nothing to do with his sexuality)

Modifié par Mr.House, 04 juin 2011 - 07:34 .

[slimgrin]

God damn this thread is frustrating. I want Bioware to do s/s with some conviction, to do it right. And I say that as a straight person. It seems many Bi/gay gamers are content with table scraps.

Last post. From here I just get offensive.

[jlb524]

Anathemic wrote...

What does homophobia have to do with it? I thought the discussion was the realism-issue.

Well, if you live in a place where homophobia and heteronormativity is rampant, you will be more likely to repress/ignore/lie about your own homosexual desires out of fear or the desire to 'fit in' and be 'normal' like anyone else.  That's why we have the phrase "closet homosexuals". 

Take away these external pressures and what do you think will happen?

[Mr.House]

slimgrin wrote...

God damn this thread is frustrating. I want Bioware to do s/s with some conviction, to do it right. And I say that as a straight person. It seems many Bi/gay gamers are content with table scraps.

Last post. From here I just get offensive.

You should should leave the forums then, the point that you call the romances table scraps and say the bi/gay gamers like it is not just insulting, it's bloody retarded.

[Anathemic]

jlb524 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

What does homophobia have to do with it? I thought the discussion was the realism-issue.

Well, if you live in a place where homophobia and heteronormativity is rampant, you will be more likely to repress/ignore/lie about your own homosexual desires out of fear or the desire to 'fit in' and be 'normal' like anyone else.  That's why we have the phrase "closet homosexuals". 

Take away these external pressures and what do you think will happen?

Did you read the rest of my post you quoted? The issue is not society, the issue is the individual.

Anathemic wrote...

Even if you claim sexuality doesn't
affect personality, it does affect the course/possiblity of a in-depth
relationship past the threshold of 'friends' which in a BioWare game,
friendship doesn't cut it.

So now that 'friendship' is out of the
picture, let us remind ourselves that sexuality oreintation is a fickle
topic, people claim it's genetic whereas other people claim that the
individual can change it. Whatever the case, the issue here is one's own
sexuality orientation affecting a relationship.

For a straight
person, said straight person won't pursue the same sex nor likes to be
targeted by the same sex for a relationship.
For a homosexual person,
said homosexual person won't pursue the opposite sex, nor likes to be
targeted by the opposite sex for a relationship.
For a bisexual
person, said bisexual is would like a relationship with either sex, and
doesn't care if being pursued by both sexes for a relationship.

These
are 3 factors of sexuality orientation to take into account, and said 3
factors must be shown realistically in a 'BioWare game.' It doesn't
matter if society is open to any kind of sexuality, the issue is with
the individual him/herself.

Obviously 2/3 of the 3 sexual
orientation factors have a 'reserved outlook' on sexuality oreintation.
Therefore it can be reasonable inferred that there will be some barriers
that have to be shown/expressed in some way in a 'Bioware game' dealing
with relationships.

Not even that, but if you take into account
that the 'evolutionary aspect' prefers straights to progress a species.
Then you can pretty damn sure that the factors are more sided to the
ones having a 'reserved outlook' o nsexuality oreintation.

Again, it's not what society dictates, it's what the individual him/herself dictates.

[jlb524]

slimgrin wrote...

God damn this thread is frustrating. I want Bioware to do s/s with some conviction, to do it right. And I say that as a straight person. It seems many Bi/gay gamers are content with table scraps.

Last post. From here I just get offensive.

Do you want them to turn it into some PSA on the oppression homosexuals face or something?  What sort of 'conviction' are you looking for?  I like it that they handle these romances just the same as straight ones, just as 'normal' and don't make some big deal about it in game.  I hate "Oh look, you're a woman and so am I ...how weird!!" kind of crap thrown into s/s romances just to add some 'realism' to dialog.

I also don't feel as if I've been handled 'table scraps' from them.  You could argue that just giving us one option while those that play heterosexual characters get multiple ones is 'table scrapping'.

Anathemic wrote...

Did you read the rest of my post you quoted? The issue is not society, the issue is the individual.

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 juin 2011 - 07:41 .

[Anathemic]

slimgrin wrote...

God damn this thread is frustrating. I want Bioware to do s/s with some conviction, to do it right. And I say that as a straight person. It seems many Bi/gay gamers are content with table scraps.

Last post. From here I just get offensive.

Oh come on, don't leave me alone.

[Anathemic]

jlb524 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

God damn this thread is frustrating. I want Bioware to do s/s with some conviction, to do it right. And I say that as a straight person. It seems many Bi/gay gamers are content with table scraps.

Last post. From here I just get offensive.

Do you want them to turn it into some PSA on the oppression homosexuals face or something?  What sort of 'conviction' are you looking for?

I also don't feel as if I've been handled 'table scraps' from them.  You could argue that just giving us one option while those that play heterosexual characters get multiple ones is 'table scrapping'.

Anathemic wrote...

Did you read the rest of my post you quoted? The issue is not society, the issue is the individual.

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Of course it's not. You keep on trying to bring the aspect of "society dictates" into the discussion where it doesn't matter, as many people stated before the aspect you keep bringing up does not exist in Thedas.

Therefore if the aspect doesn't exist, then hmm I don't know, it's the individual that matters.

-Edited-

Modifié par Anathemic, 04 juin 2011 - 07:44 .

[aduellist]

Siansonea II wrote...

What I would like to know is:

What "missed opportunity" was to be had by Exclusively Gay Anders, Exclusively Gay Isabela, Exclusively Straight Merrill, and Exclusively Straight Fenris? What wonderful nuggets of role-playing goodness did we miss out on because those characters were open to either gender sexually?

I'm going to take a shot at answering this and see if it resonates with anyone else.

One misses out on the opportunity to play out an attempt at a relationship that's never going to happen, being attracted to a person who "doesn't swing that way".  One misses out on dialog with characters that are one way or the other, but not both, to explore a deep relationship with someone without the tension of potential romance.  I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for Isabela to be bi.  She seems to personify "if it feels good, do it" and/or "poor impulse control" to me. I think that Fenris, Merril and Anders are in a position of emotional isolation and a certain level of vulnerability.  They would perhaps be drawn to any person they perceive as sympathetic.  The question is whether that would result in deep friendship or romantic attachment.  People can be very deeply attached to each other without wanting to jump into bed together.

Modifié par aduellist, 04 juin 2011 - 07:46 .

[Anathemic]

aduellist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

What I would like to know is:

What "missed opportunity" was to be had by Exclusively Gay Anders, Exclusively Gay Isabela, Exclusively Straight Merrill, and Exclusively Straight Fenris? What wonderful nuggets of role-playing goodness did we miss out on because those characters were open to either gender sexually?

I'm going to take a shot at answering this and see if it resonates with anyone else.

One misses out on the opportunity to play out an attempt at a relationship that's never going to happen, being attracted to a person who "doesn't swing that way".  One misses out on dialog with characters that are one way or the other, but not both, to explore a deep relationship with someone without the tension of potential romance.  I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for Isabela to be bi.  She seems to personify "if it feels good, do it" and/or "poor impulse control" to me. I think that Fenris, Merril and Anders are in a position of emotional isolation and a certain level of vulnerability.  They would perhaps be drawn to any person they perceive as sympathetic.  The question is whether that would result in deep friendship or romantic attachment.  People can be very deeply attached to each other without wanting to jump into bed together.

Agreed.

[jlb524]

Anathemic wrote...

Of course it's not. You keep on trying to bring the aspect of "society dictates" into the discussion where it doesn't matter, as many people stated before the aspect you keep bringing up does not exist in Thedas.

Therefore if the aspect doesn't exist, then hmm I don't know, it's the individual that matters.

-Edited-

Yes

1)  It doesn't matter in Thedas....there aren't even words like 'homosexual', 'heterosexual', etc.

2) No one will repress homosexual desires...no need to really.

3)  I'd expect more individual people to act freely on their homosexual desires, b/c no ones saying 'don't'.  I'm not saying everyone will have them, just like some will be incapable of having sexual desire for the opposite sex, but I would imagine the likely hood of people entering into a homosexual relationship would increase. 

4)  Thus, talking about the DA2 LIs being unrealistic seems a bit off the mark, and assumes things work like they do in our culture.

[autumnyte]

aduellist wrote...

I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

You might know more bisexual people than you think. It's not like you can tell by looking at a person. In fact, if you didn't know from a meta-gaming perspective that the 4 LIs were bi, it could be argued that (with the exception of Isabela) you wouldn't ever find out unless you tried to romance them.

[Anathemic]

jlb524 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Of course it's not. You keep on trying to bring the aspect of "society dictates" into the discussion where it doesn't matter, as many people stated before the aspect you keep bringing up does not exist in Thedas.

Therefore if the aspect doesn't exist, then hmm I don't know, it's the individual that matters.

-Edited-

Yes

1)  It doesn't matter in Thedas....there aren't even words like 'homosexual', 'heterosexual', etc.

2) No one will repress homosexual desires...no need to really.

3)  I'd expect more individual people to act freely on their homosexual desires, b/c no ones saying 'don't'.  I'm not saying everyone will have them, just like some will be incapable of having sexual desire for the opposite sex, but I would imagine the likely hood of people entering into a homosexual relationship would increase. 

4)  Thus, talking about the DA2 LIs being unrealistic seems a bit off the mark, and assumes things work like they do in our culture.

1) Even though if the words don't exist, the sexual orientations still do

2) You cannot make that assumption, again refer to my in-depth post. 2/3 of the time (at the very least) people will have reserved outlooks on sexual orientation. Therefore one is bound to be offended at some point in a relationship development. And to prevent said offense, what do people do? Oh yeah 'repress'.

3) Even so the heterosexual relationship will always, always still outnumber the other sexual orientations. This is not being sexist, this is being realistic to both societal (making a damn family) and evolutionary aspects.

4) This is weak. Fantasy must always always have parallels that derive from their RL counterpart, else it will alienate the reader.

Modifié par Anathemic, 04 juin 2011 - 07:58 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I've been sitting on the side lines of this since it started, but at several points, I've considered jumping in. Hopefully no one will mind my doing so now (I may apologize if so).

aduellist wrote...

I'm going to take a shot at answering this and see if it resonates with anyone else.

One misses out on the opportunity to play out an attempt at a relationship that's never going to happen, being attracted to a person who "doesn't swing that way".  One misses out on dialog with characters that are one way or the other, but not both, to explore a deep relationship with someone without the tension of potential romance.  I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

I think I see what you are getting at here, however it's not readily evident in the game that any of the characters, other than Isabela perhaps, "swing" one way or the other. Other than metagaming, that information comes from Hawke's conversations with each individual, or from party banter. No one is really walking around Thedas announcing who they are sleeping with, or who they find attractive (well, Merrill did seem appreciative of the Qunari physique, but that could just be eye candy).

In our reality, if you are attracted to someone, and may not have any evidence of their desires and what gender they are focused to, you go up and talk to them. You get to know them. You flirt, you offer to buy them a drink. That's how you develop the relationship, and depending on how that proceeds, you may wind up with a friend or a romantic partner.

In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for Isabela to be bi.  She seems to personify "if it feels good, do it" and/or "poor impulse control" to me. I think that Fenris, Merril and Anders are in a position of emotional isolation and a certain level of vulnerability.  They would perhaps be drawn to any person they perceive as sympathetic.  The question is whether that would result in deep friendship or romantic attachment.  People can be very deeply attached to each other without wanting to jump into bed together.

I very much agree with your last statement there though.

[jlb524]

aduellist wrote...
One misses out on the opportunity to play out an attempt at a relationship that's never going to happen, being attracted to a person who "doesn't swing that way". 

You had Aveline in DA2....

Also, speak for yourself...I don't really want that, and would prefer the choice to just romance whoever I want among the available LIs.  It's just a game and I have to deal with that enough in real life. 

Would you like it if everyone was just gay and there were 0 heterosexual options....getting turned down by everyone...

aduellist wrote...
One misses out on dialog with characters that are one way or the other, but not both, to explore a deep relationship with someone without the tension of potential romance. 

You don't have to do the romance...I explored a strictly platonic and enjoyable/rewarding relationship in DA2 with Isabela/Anders/Fenris....the mere existence of heart icons didn't ruin anything for me.  Again, how does that make it deeper if the romance is optional anyway, and you can ignore it and go on your merry way of just friending them?

aduellist wrote...
I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

While others know a lot of bisexual people.  There are also plenty of things that can break someone's immersion (some are with optional content while some aren't)...what I don't get is all the fuss over something that's optional...

aduellist wrote...
In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for Isabela to be bi.  She seems to personify "if it feels good, do it" and/or "poor impulse control" to me.

Ah...of course...See, I don't associate that with bisexuality...if fact, I've known a decent amount of straight women that fit that bill.

aduellist wrote...
I think that Fenris, Merril and Anders are in a position of emotional isolation and a certain level of vulnerability.  They would perhaps be drawn to any person they perceive as sympathetic.  The question is whether that would result in deep friendship or romantic attachment.  People can be very deeply attached to each other without wanting to jump into bed together.

Yes, and it's quite possible to do that with those characters (I do it with two).

[DragonRageGT]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I tried this before...  it didn't end as well as I hoped.  Dragon Age Origins taught me all I had to do was give people things and they'd like me,  no matter how abrassive my personality was.  Let me tell you,  it most certainly isn't true.  

It works in RL. Give a girl diamonds/gold/emeralds and watch her legs open faster than the speed of sound.

QFT.

*wonders idly how many people who make snickering middle school jokes like this have ever even seen a female human naked in person*

Hmm... I'm 47 and I've seen this work soooo many times. Just one real case: When a sixty-yrs-old, bald, shortie and fat man keeps dating with 22 yrs old models wannabes, the only "size" that matters is the size of all the zeros in his bank account!

When we're in the 20's we ask "Who bangs all these gorgeous 20 yrs old chicks?" ... When we're 40, we discover it is we! - Old Playboy "joke"... might lose a bit in the translation.

P.S.: Seeing this thread getting this long makes me wonder if you're all just asexual beings! Go out and have some fun! And paraphrasing  "When Harry net Sally", there is no real friendship among our species. We're all out there to plough each other! Sexual preferences respected of course!

[aduellist]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I've been sitting on the side lines of this since it started, but at several points, I've considered jumping in. Hopefully no one will mind my doing so now (I may apologize if so).

aduellist wrote...

I'm going to take a shot at answering this and see if it resonates with anyone else.

One misses out on the opportunity to play out an attempt at a relationship that's never going to happen, being attracted to a person who "doesn't swing that way".  One misses out on dialog with characters that are one way or the other, but not both, to explore a deep relationship with someone without the tension of potential romance.  I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

I think I see what you are getting at here, however it's not readily evident in the game that any of the characters, other than Isabela perhaps, "swing" one way or the other. Other than metagaming, that information comes from Hawke's conversations with each individual, or from party banter. No one is really walking around Thedas announcing who they are sleeping with, or who they find attractive (well, Merrill did seem appreciative of the Qunari physique, but that could just be eye candy).

In our reality, if you are attracted to someone, and may not have any evidence of their desires and what gender they are focused to, you go up and talk to them. You get to know them. You flirt, you offer to buy them a drink. That's how you develop the relationship, and depending on how that proceeds, you may wind up with a friend or a romantic partner.

Yeah, perhaps I didn't explain my thoughts really well.  You got the jist of it though.  I didn't mean to imply that people walk aroint with signs advertising their sexuality.  Plugging people into broad stereotypes isn't very immersive either.    And your last point above is another missed RP opportunity, the chance to discover just what you described.  That. to me, would be a big positive in the game.

In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for Isabela to be bi.  She seems to personify "if it feels good, do it" and/or "poor impulse control" to me. I think that Fenris, Merril and Anders are in a position of emotional isolation and a certain level of vulnerability.  They would perhaps be drawn to any person they perceive as sympathetic.  The question is whether that would result in deep friendship or romantic attachment.  People can be very deeply attached to each other without wanting to jump into bed together.

I very much agree with your last statement there though.

What I'm looking for, I guess, is simply more realistic/believable characters.  Thanks for taking the time for a thoughtful reply.

Modifié par aduellist, 04 juin 2011 - 08:06 .

[Siansonea]

aduellist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

What I would like to know is:

What "missed opportunity" was to be had by Exclusively Gay Anders, Exclusively Gay Isabela, Exclusively Straight Merrill, and Exclusively Straight Fenris? What wonderful nuggets of role-playing goodness did we miss out on because those characters were open to either gender sexually?

I'm going to take a shot at answering this and see if it resonates with anyone else.

One misses out on the opportunity to play out an attempt at a relationship that's never going to happen, being attracted to a person who "doesn't swing that way".  One misses out on dialog with characters that are one way or the other, but not both, to explore a deep relationship with someone without the tension of potential romance.  I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for Isabela to be bi.  She seems to personify "if it feels good, do it" and/or "poor impulse control" to me. I think that Fenris, Merril and Anders are in a position of emotional isolation and a certain level of vulnerability.  They would perhaps be drawn to any person they perceive as sympathetic.  The question is whether that would result in deep friendship or romantic attachment.  People can be very deeply attached to each other without wanting to jump into bed together.

Interesting, but you're not making a compelling case that a "brush-off" is a more satisfying character arc or game experience for the player. But I know what you're saying. In ME2, I really loved Samara's refusal of Shepard's advances, not because of Shepard's gender, but because of her station in life. She had "been there, done that" and she probably saw Shepard as an impossibly young person, equivalent to having a relationship with an asari Maiden. That made sense. But with Anders, Fenris and Merrill, I'm not convinced that them having a one-gender preference would improve their characters in a way that would offset the loss of gameplay possibilities. Everything is a tradeoff. In a perfect world, as I've said before, there would be more options in general, some straight, some bisexual, and some gay/lesbian. But romance is only part of the Dragon Age game, and it's probably not feasible to have 7 or 8 fully-realized and highly developed distinct characters that are open to romance with the main character. After all, characters really should be their own people first, and romance options second or third (or not at all, depending). But as much as I hate to resort to the "limited resources" thing, the fact is we don't have unlimited resources. It would be great if there were more DLC characters who were exclusively gay or exclusively straight, like Sebastian, but I don't see that happening.

The fact is I don't fundamentally disagree with the notion that having gay, straight, AND bisexual LI options is the best way to go. I do disagree with the notion that the DA2 system is terrible. It's a compromise, sure, but I would say if anything they should have added more characters rather than limit any of the four to one gender Hawke. To me, each of the four bisexual LIs is a perfectly reasonable character in all respects, so the one character facet of their bisexual nature in no way causes me any reduced enjoyment of the game.

[Mr.House]

DuckSoup wrote...

Does everyone really have to keep making this an issue?

Most straight people think they are entiled to everything and get mad because they are no longer being catered
 to. Sad truth but it's there, they act like they are forced to do it but it's not true

Modifié par Mr.House, 04 juin 2011 - 08:12 .

[slimgrin]

Mr.House wrote...

DuckSoup wrote...

Does everyone really have to keep making this an issue?

Most straight people think they are entiled to everything and get mad because they are no lnoger being catred to. Sad truth but it's there, they act like they are forced to do it but it's not true

Nonsense. Many straight gamers have advocated for gay content on this site, I've seen it time and again. Don't get smug.

[Anathemic]

Mr.House wrote...

DuckSoup wrote...

Does everyone really have to keep making this an issue?

Most straight people think they are entiled to everything and get mad because they are no longer being catered
 to. Sad truth but it's there, they act like they are forced to do it but it's not true

that's not ignorant at all

[aduellist]

Siansonea II wrote...

aduellist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

What I would like to know is:

What "missed opportunity" was to be had by Exclusively Gay Anders, Exclusively Gay Isabela, Exclusively Straight Merrill, and Exclusively Straight Fenris? What wonderful nuggets of role-playing goodness did we miss out on because those characters were open to either gender sexually?

I'm going to take a shot at answering this and see if it resonates with anyone else.

One misses out on the opportunity to play out an attempt at a relationship that's never going to happen, being attracted to a person who "doesn't swing that way".  One misses out on dialog with characters that are one way or the other, but not both, to explore a deep relationship with someone without the tension of potential romance.  I know lots of straight people and quite a few gay people.  I know very few bisexual people.  That makes the game's default stance unrealistic and immersion impairing for me.

In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for Isabela to be bi.  She seems to personify "if it feels good, do it" and/or "poor impulse control" to me. I think that Fenris, Merril and Anders are in a position of emotional isolation and a certain level of vulnerability.  They would perhaps be drawn to any person they perceive as sympathetic.  The question is whether that would result in deep friendship or romantic attachment.  People can be very deeply attached to each other without wanting to jump into bed together.

Interesting, but you're not making a compelling case that a "brush-off" is a more satisfying character arc or game experience for the player. But I know what you're saying. In ME2, I really loved Samara's refusal of Shepard's advances, not because of Shepard's gender, but because of her station in life. She had "been there, done that" and she probably saw Shepard as an impossibly young person, equivalent to having a relationship with an asari Maiden. That made sense. But with Anders, Fenris and Merrill, I'm not convinced that them having a one-gender preference would improve their characters in a way that would offset the loss of gameplay possibilities. Everything is a tradeoff. In a perfect world, as I've said before, there would be more options in general, some straight, some bisexual, and some gay/lesbian. But romance is only part of the Dragon Age game, and it's probably not feasible to have 7 or 8 fully-realized and highly developed distinct characters that are open to romance with the main character. After all, characters really should be their own people first, and romance options second or third (or not at all, depending). But as much as I hate to resort to the "limited resources" thing, the fact is we don't have unlimited resources. It would be great if there were more DLC characters who were exclusively gay or exclusively straight, like Sebastian, but I don't see that happening.

I see what you mean.  A "brush off", though, can simply be an opportunity to develop a different sort of relationship.  Of course, we know as players that these are people we're going to potentially be spending a lot of time with.  That makes all our in-game relationships somewhat artificial to begin with, I suppose.

The fact is I don't fundamentally disagree with the notion that having gay, straight, AND bisexual LI options is the best way to go. I do disagree with the notion that the DA2 system is terrible. It's a compromise, sure, but I would say if anything they should have added more characters rather than limit any of the four to one gender Hawke. To me, each of the four bisexual LIs is a perfectly reasonable character in all respects, so the one character facet of their bisexual nature in no way causes me any reduced enjoyment of the game.

And I certainly did not mean to imply that the DA2 romance system is terrible.  I don't find it so.  I simply think it could be better.  I agree with your overall sentiments.

[Mr.House]

Anathemic wrote...
that's not ignorant at all

I hope you're joking.

Modifié par Mr.House, 04 juin 2011 - 08:15 .