506 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Siven80 wrote...
Part of the weakness of DA2s companions imo is that they are all bisexual in an attempt to pander to all fans, rather than having all out straight, gay or bisexual characters which imo would strengthen them as characters.

How were they weaker b/c of this?

Siven80 wrote...
It was just blatent pandering and laziness. And i know several homosexual and bisexual friends who agree with me.

I know several heterosexual fans that disagree with you.

[Huntress]

jlb524 wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

And gay characters having less options than straight is rather logical. But you already shown that logic isn't your forte, so it's not surprising this does elude you.

Logical?  Who cares...we are talking about a video game in which you can shoot fire from your hands.  The Origins romances were far far from logical.

I still maintain that Origins was no better than DA2 as far as this "Hawkesexual" concept goes (or, "Wardensexaul").

Facts:

1)  Any race could romance any LI, even dwarves and elves, in spite of the former pairing with humans/elves being ridiculously rare in lore and in game, and the latter pairing with humans being a bit taboo.  Regardless, the romances with say, Allistair/Morrigan/Leliana and an elf played out similarily regardless of race and these all happened in a rather short time period (hell, in a few months, Morrigan will jump into bed with a dwarf).   The issue still exists with the elves in DA2, but these romances don't really start to play out until after three years.

2)  As mentioned previously, Alistair (and possibly even Leliana) have no qualms about romancing a blood mage.

3)  You can kill a kid (Conner) and still have Leliana fall in love with you:  buy her a cute nug!  Is Morrigan disapproving of all your selfless goody deeds?  Just buy her a bunch of jewelery....she'll love you, even if she's annoyed by everything you do.

The DA2 companions actually seem 'less' Hawkesexual in this case, as you can't simply just gift the hell out of them and must act consistintly with them throughout all 3 acts in order to get their friend/rival bar to a high enough level for romance.

As far as past sexual history goes, you have Zevran (who's Zevran) and Leliana (Marjolaine) but beyond that, there's Alistair the virgin and Morrigan who only had sex with men b/c her mother forced her (she could even be lesbian for all we know).  Not sure how this is all that different from DA2's cast...

So, it all comes down to...what?  The minor differences in gender restrictions between the DA:O cast and the DA2 ones...do people believe gay or lesbian PCs don't deserve as many options as heterosexual ones?  Are they upset they have to 'share' their LI with the opposite gender {C even when already sharing them with others of the same gender?  I don't get it.

Agree!

The players do not want to feel been FORCED to do anything and YET they want to Force everyone to play their own game style<_<

[LiquidGrape]

The level of discussion in here is absolutely deplorable.
Time and time again, people imply that bisexuality is somehow less "credible" than hetero or homosexuality, that it "diminishes" characterisation, that it "hurts" their roleplaying experience.

I think people need to consider the notion that sexuality isn't a defining property in a human being.

So what if the four love interests were bisexual? It granted everyone the same opportunity to pursue the particular character they responded to the most. It was inclusive. It was a truly egalitarian approach.
I think it was a commendable decision, and the writers deserve plaudits for executing it with such precision.
People are quick to label it "pandering", but I don't see that. I see four very fleshed-out romantic subplots, each with their own particular quirks and turns.
That everyone be allowed the chance to experience them is a negative now?
And I thought people generally approved of options in these things.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 juin 2011 - 02:18 .

[BossumBuddy]

I use to think the games were to have fun and get away from the real world for awhile. Why are people trying to bring their prejudices into MY game. You play your way, I'll play my way, we both BOUGHT the game, stop taking the fun out of it, you can screw a monkey I don't really care, it does not change my life, nor what I do should change yours.

[Vogga]

LiquidGrape wrote...

The level of discussion in here is absolutely deplorable.
Time and time again, people imply that bisexuality is somehow less "credible" than hetero or homosexuality, that it "diminishes" characterisation, that it "hurts" their roleplaying experience.

I think people need to consider the notion that sexuality isn't a defining property in a human being.

Your straw man argument isn't adding anything valuable either. 

[slimgrin]

LiquidGrape wrote...

The level of discussion in here is absolutely deplorable.
Time and time again, people imply that bisexuality is somehow less "credible" than hetero or homosexuality, that it "diminishes" characterisation, that it "hurts" their roleplaying experience.

I think people need to consider the notion that sexuality isn't a defining property in a human being.

I disagree with this, but at the same time, I'm not trying to push an agenda here or diminish someone elses enjoyment of the game. I'm only striving for a sense of credibility in the writing.

[Vogga]

jlb524 wrote...

Siven80 wrote...
Part of the weakness of DA2s companions imo is that they are all bisexual in an attempt to pander to all fans, rather than having all out straight, gay or bisexual characters which imo would strengthen them as characters.

How were they weaker b/c of this?

Siven80 wrote...
It was just blatent pandering and laziness. And i know several homosexual and bisexual friends who agree with me.

I know several heterosexual fans that disagree with you.

[BossumBuddy]

As J said, as credible as Reapers and Husks and Thorians, and Dark Spawn and Blood Magic and the Fade...etc...etc...etc...it's a make believe world, just enjoy it, I think doth protest too much.

[Monica83]

For me

All romancable bi character= Unrealistic and poor narration...

[jlb524]

jollyorigins wrote...
I thought making all romances bisexual was stupid, it was pandering to a minority at best and general laziness on Bioware's part. It made all the romance parts of the game weak and bland because everyone one of them was the exact same. I still can't find any reason why for example, Merrill, is suddenly gay just because you're a female Hawke. Anders' relationship with Karl felt weak too, if you're female it was his best friend but suddenly you're male and they were lovers?

That's not really true....Merrill isn't gay for female Hawke, she's bisexual.  I could also turn that around and say how 'ridiculous' it is that Merrill's suddenly straight for male Hawke, as she seems more like a lesbian to me.

jollyorigins wrote...
And I know that it's all down to the minor difference in gender but that's the point, why is everyone suddenly attracted to the same character whether they are male/female?

If so, then restrict romances based on class/race/morality as well...if you're going to cut off certain romance paths then go for it all...if you want realism...

I personally think it's foolish to limit romances based on anything and people should just be able to romance whoever given the fact that romances are a smaller/optional part of the game that not everyone even plays through.  It seems to be needless complication added in, where that complication could be used in other parts of the game that are part of the main plot.  For example, DA2 needed more Mage!Hawke variation with the plot.  In DA:O, have the Landsmeet possibly play out a bit differently if the Warden is an elf.   Why waste time coding in racial/gender/morality/class restrictions with something like romance?

jollyorigins wrote...
I would have much preferred it if Anders could have been my male characters best friend rather than a guy constantly hitting on me then ****ing about it 2 seconds later when I say no, and yes I am choosing the "black broken heart with red outer line" option on the dialogue wheel.

Anders only comes onto you once and that's it...just the same with my Lady Hawke.

jollyorigins wrote...
To end my point, I thought Origins romances were done much better, 2 female, 2 male and 2 bisexual romances, fair for everyone.

No, they weren't fair for gay/bisexual male PCs that couldn't stand Zevran and wanted Alistair to lick their lampost.  Or for females that couldn't stand Leliana and wanted to hop in Morrigan's tent.  I'm not sure how many people who play heterosexual PC would have been satisfied if only Zevran was available for female Wardens, and Leliana for male Wardens.

jollyorigins wrote...
Jib547 does make a good point about how some story plots don't affect romances like Alistair romancing a blood mage character and the bombardment of gifts you can give them. It just felt like DA:O romance sub-plots were much better executed than DA2 romance sub-plots, which felt more like Bioware bashing your face in with "YOU MUST HAVE A ROMANCE IT'S AGAINST THE RULES IF YOU DON'T ARARARARAGH!!"

The romances were still optional and very easy to avoid.  Besides, them forcing you to do a romance (which they don't) is an issue separate from sexuality anyway.

[The Uncanny]

slimgrin wrote...
I disagree with this, but at the same time, I'm not trying to push an agenda here or diminish someone elses enjoyment of the game. I'm only striving for a sense of credibility in the writing.

What I have yet to see succesfully explained is how including a set of LIs who, in alternate playing experiences, can be romanced by s/s players represents a lack of credibility in the writing. If the sum total of OPTIONS in a GAME offends you then perhaps you should stick to reading books?

[Vogga]

jlb524 wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

And gay characters having less options than straight is rather logical. But you already shown that logic isn't your forte, so it's not surprising this does elude you.

Logical?  Who cares...we are talking about a video game in which you can shoot fire from your hands.  The Origins romances were far far from logical.

Read these links. They'll explain quite well the imprtance of internal consistency and the difference between 'believable' and 'realistic'.

[jlb524]

Monica83 wrote...

For me

All romancable bi character= Unrealistic and poor narration...

People keep saying stuff like this but never explain 'why'...

Why is the narration poorer for it?

Vogga wrote...

Read these links. They'll explain quite well the imprtance of internal consistency and the difference between 'believable' and 'realistic'.

I do understand that, the fireball example was poorly chosen [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

However, I think my examples pulled from the DA:O romances covers it.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 juin 2011 - 02:26 .

[Wulfram]

JoHnDoE14 wrote...

I will agree, not everyone needs to be bi. For instance, you'd think that Merrill would be straight, given how presured Dalish are to reproduce.

Being bi doesn't stop you reproducing.

The big taboo Merrill/Hawke come up against is racial - Merrill/F!Hawke is if anything less complicated because there's no prospect of children.

[MDT1]

I guess Biowares problem was that if you want companions with fixed sexuality for each taste and still a choice, you need about 8 LI companions or even 12 if you also want bisexual companions.
( 2 straigt males, 2 straigt females, 2 homosexual males ... )

Modifié par MDT1, 04 juin 2011 - 02:27 .

[BossumBuddy]

The Uncanny wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
I disagree with this, but at the same time, I'm not trying to push an agenda here or diminish someone elses enjoyment of the game. I'm only striving for a sense of credibility in the writing.

What I have yet to see succesfully explained is how including a set of LIs who, in alternate playing experiences, can be romanced by s/s players represents a lack of credibility in the writing. If the sum total of OPTIONS in a GAME offends you then perhaps you should stick to reading books?

Indeed, what's the point of role playing if you CAN"T role play.

[Khayness]

jlb524 wrote...

People keep saying stuff like this but never explain 'why'...

Why is the narration poorer for it?

Because they don't feel bisexual, (with a little exaggeration) sometimes it seems they are just happen to be attracted to whatever gender Hawke is, and that makes them less believable, thus the narration suffers from it. You are a male, Anders fancy dudes, you are a female, Anders tries to be a ladies man.

Playing HeHawke or FemHawke lights the characters in other ways, they are truly different. They are called Bi because people approach them with metagaming thinking.

This solution is a cop out for me, taking the lazy way out with the "romances should be for everyone" excuse instead of taking the effort to make believable bi characters like Zevran (the DA:O one, not the double entendre *wink wink* DA2 one) and Leliana.

Modifié par Khayness, 04 juin 2011 - 02:35 .

[LiquidGrape]

Vogga wrote...

Read these links. They'll explain quite well the imprtance of internal consistency and the difference between 'believable' and 'realistic'.

The lunacy of linking TV Tropes aside (My afternoon! Gone!), I do understand what you're getting at with suspension of disbelief.
But frankly, if the occurrence of bisexuality in four, I count four characters is what tips those scales for some people...

I don't know. It smells rather reductive to me.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 juin 2011 - 02:33 .

[slimgrin]

The Uncanny wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
I disagree with this, but at the same time, I'm not trying to push an agenda here or diminish someone elses enjoyment of the game. I'm only striving for a sense of credibility in the writing.

What I have yet to see succesfully explained is how including a set of LIs who, in alternate playing experiences, can be romanced by s/s players represents a lack of credibility in the writing. If the sum total of OPTIONS in a GAME offends you then perhaps you should stick to reading books?

Don't be unfair here. The option itself doesn't offend me and you know I've backed s/s content from the beginning.
I happen to think mutiple playthroughs are what contitute the sum of the game, and the 'everyone is bi' option weakens characterization. But the truth is I'm not about to go on a crusade on the issue, and it wouldn't keep me from buying said game. I'm just a bit critical.

Modifié par slimgrin, 04 juin 2011 - 02:41 .

[Monica83]

jlb524 wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

For me

All romancable bi character= Unrealistic and poor narration...

People keep saying stuff like this but never explain 'why'...

Why is the narration poorer for it?

Its simple considering all character you meet in dragon age 2 are complete strangers at the beginning is a bit too much forced in terms of plot you meet all those bi people.. In fact i don't see the bisexuality of the companion in the game as a personality feature but i see this as a forced decision maked by the game creator to create equality in a gameplay factor... Its like you go in a city you meet 5 people around in a very random manner and all of them are bisexual.. Its not a feature its stupid..I prefear a way lot like that thing been afford on dragon age origins.. You meet two bi people in origins... Leliana.. and Zevhran and is a way lot much more realistic that have 4 companions bi in the party.... When the storyline is forced to change in order to create a equality in gameplay terms its always a trobule because you cause gameplay features but poor narration in terms of story.... Its hard to believe that hawke meet theyr companion in a very random manner and most of them (romancable one) are bi... This is a choice maded for gameplay and not for the plot.. In fact this cause poor narration in my opinion

[jlb524]

Khayness wrote...

Because they don't feel bisexual, (with a little exaggeration) sometimes it seems they are just happen to be attracted to whatever gender Hawke is, and they make them less believable, thus the narration suffers from it. You are a male, Anders fancy dudes, you are a female, Anders tries to be a ladies man.

Playing HeHawke or FemHawke lights the characters in other ways, they are truly different. They are called Bi because people approach them with metagaming thinking.

How does one 'feel' bisexual?  Is there a specific aura that all bisexuals give off?  You also assume that bisexuals act the same way around potential male romantic interests as they do female ones...that's not necessarily true.  Some bisexuals even have preferences for one gender over the other (just like I have a preference for brunettes over blondes)....they just don't let gender get in entirely in the way.

Again, this could also be an issue with the Origins romances, just exchange morality/race for gender.  No one is creating tons of threads complaining that all LIs will romance a dwarf or elf though...

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

Siven80 wrote...
Part of the weakness of DA2s companions imo is that they are all bisexual in an attempt to pander to all fans, rather than having all out straight, gay or bisexual characters which imo would strengthen them as characters.

How were they weaker b/c of this?

It hinges on presumption the sexuality of characters was set the way it was specifically to allow the players to get them in the sack if they so wished. If that presumption is true, it can create impression the character is less of a coherent "self", defined on their own and with the character themselves being the main focus.

It's hard to express, but in a way it's like reversal of cause and effect -- consider a difference between "character is a potential romance interest because they'd been defined straight/gay/bisexual" vs "character was defined bisexual so they could be potential romance interest"

[TEWR]

Oh hello there thread! Wait, haven't we discussed this topic before? Huh.... deja-vu or something....