506 réponses à ce sujet

[MDT1]

Monica83 wrote...

For me

All romancable bi character= Unrealistic and poor narration...

Unrealistic, perhaps, but no poor narration.
Because in an RPG I want to be able to narrate the story to a certain extend myself and one of thos points is when I decide whome to romance. In this case I just don't want restrictions and I usually don't roleplay the tragic hero who fell in love with some that is not interested.
While it sometimes makes sence for a companion to be hetero or homosexual, the majority of companions should be bisexual imho.

[jlb524]

Monica83 wrote...
Its simple considering all character you meet in dragon age 2 are complete strangers at the beginning is a bit too much forced in terms of plot you meet all those bi people.. In fact i don't see the bisexuality of the companion in the game as a personality feature but i see this as a forced decision maked by the game creator to create equality in a gameplay factor...

And...they did the same in Origins with morality/class/race.  It just so happens my dwarven male PC will end up in a party with two human women that just so happen to dig dwarven men, and sex him up withing mere months of knowing him.  Why are people so hung up on DA2 and gender?

Monica83 wrote...
Its like you go in a city you meet 5 people around in a very random manner and all of them are bisexual.. Its not a feature its stupid..I prefear a way lot like that thing been afford on dragon age origins.. You meet two bi people in origins... Leliana.. and Zevhran and is a way lot much more realistic that have 4 companions bi in the party.... When the storyline is forced to change in order to create a equality in gameplay terms its always a trobule because you cause gameplay features but poor narration in terms of story.... Its hard to believe that hawke meet theyr companion in a very random manner and most of them (romancable one) are bi... This is a choice maded for gameplay and not for the plot.. In fact this cause poor narration in my opinion

What I said above applies to this (since you do bring up Origins...which I think is far worse of an offender than DA2 in the whole 'LI will jump on anything' deal (minus the two with gender restrictions).  

But still, you didn't answer how the plot was affected...these romances are completely separate from all of that.

[AngryFrozenWater]

If BW made all LIs bi, then they only need to make those romances gender independent. It prevents using different romance plots and voice actors and thus is cheaper.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...

It hinges on presumption the sexuality of characters was set the way it was specifically to allow the players to get them in the sack if they so wished. If that presumption is true, it can create impression the character is less of a coherent "self", defined on their own and with the character themselves being the main focus.

It's hard to express, but in a way it's like reversal of cause and effect -- consider a difference between "character is a potential romance interest because they'd been defined straight/gay/bisexual" vs "character was defined bisexual so they could be potential romance interest"

Yes...but why doesn't this apply to the Origins romances with their lack of consideration for race/morality/etc?....and then there's the ridiculous gifting system.

The Origins LIs must be pretty damn shallow if they'll romance someone they really clash with over core beliefs just cuz they bought them a bunch of shiny things.  I don't think of Leliana as shallow, but they seem to be building this into her character so an evil douche can romance her.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[LiquidGrape]

tmp7704 wrote...

It hinges on presumption the sexuality of characters was set the way it was specifically to allow the players to get them in the sack if they so wished. If that presumption is true, it can create impression the character is less of a coherent "self", defined on their own and with the character themselves being the main focus.

It's hard to express, but in a way it's like reversal of cause and effect -- consider a difference between "character is a potential romance interest because they'd been defined straight/gay/bisexual" vs "character was defined bisexual so they could be potential romance interest"

I do see what you are saying, but that level of meta-awareness is prevalent in any BioWare game with romantic subplots. Any romantic interest is defined as such, as a rule, so that they can be approachable for romance.

Regardless of their sexual orientation, the characters in DA2 are all still merely potential romantic interests. That they are available for players of either sex doesn't diminish that element of potential.

P.S

And jlb above makes a very good point: if anything, the Origins love interests were far more incongruous due to their utter indifference to the morals and disposition of the player. The romance ended up being something external to their character.

D.S

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 juin 2011 - 02:48 .

[Bejos_]

Esbatty wrote...
Don't forget Dog in Witchhunt had just returned from personally tripling the post-Blight Mabari population.

Ah, Dog, Dog, how I miss you.

[Monica83]

When you have a bi character because is a character tract its ok... When you have a bi character only because for gameplay reason you want give a candy to all the fan its wrong... Character are not like armor or sword or class.. Character must have their distinct personality to be believable... When in a game you have character forced to be bisexual only because you want statisfy all in gameplay terms.. Well this is unrelalistic hardly believable and a forced choice that kill the coherence in a story... Ergo poor narration...o compromized narration we are not talking about a shooter or a beat em up we are talking about an rpg... and the story and the character must be the most important things..

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

And...they did the same in Origins with morality/class/race.  It just so happens my dwarven male PC will end up in a party with two human women that just so happen to dig dwarven men, and sex him up withing mere months of knowing him.  Why are people so hung up on DA2 and gender?

Because morality/class/race are preference when it comes to relationships, ones within boundaries of sexual orientation and ones which can be quite easily put aside. But try to suggest that for example a gay man could easily and truly switch his sexual orientation, and see how well that goes...

[SkittlesKat96]

Yeah I prefer realism over that whole "appeal to the masses" approach...either way though I suppose I don't care too much.

People are being hypocritical about it though, they are saying they want everybody to be bisexual but those very same people are ALSO saying that they are made that Garrus and Tali are now bisexual in ME 3 (yes, I think it was confirmed that they are doing the DA 2 approach to romances with ME 3 I think? I might be wrong though so don't quote me)

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...
Because morality/class/race are preference when it comes to relationships, ones within boundaries of sexual orientation and ones which can be quite easily put aside. But try to suggest that for example a gay man could easily and truly switch his sexual orientation, and see how well that goes...

I don't think it's that simple.  I personally wouldn't date someone that I found morally repugnant and I couldn't 'easily put it aside' just b/c they're hot or something...nope.  In the US, there was a time when interracial couples were so taboo that people just wouldn't enter into them or 'easily' put those differences aside.

Some 'preferences' are stronger than others.  I personally have a very very strong preference for women, to the point that I wouldn't date a man...same thing with having a strong preference for someone of similar moral outlook to me.   This doesn't mean that sex/gender is the only 'strong and unmovable' preference and the other things can easily be brushed aside.

[jlb524]

Monica83 wrote...

When you have a bi character because is a character tract its ok... When you have a bi character only because for gameplay reason you want give a candy to all the fan its wrong... Character are not like armor or sword or class.. Character must have their distinct personality to be believable... When in a game you have character forced to be bisexual only because you want statisfy all in gameplay terms.. Well this is unrelalistic hardly believable and a forced choice that kill the coherence in a story... Ergo poor narration...o compromized narration we are not talking about a shooter or a beat em up we are talking about an rpg... and the story and the character must be the most important things..

Give me a specific example on how it affected the narration and made it poorer?

You are basically saying that it made it unbelievable/poorer cuz it did.

Even if it did, as I keep saying, there are tons and tons and tons of other things added in to 'pander' that does the same thing.

[slimgrin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If BW made all LIs bi, then they only need to make those romances gender independent. It prevents using different romance plots and voice actors and thus is cheaper.

Quoted for truth.

[Monica83]

jlb524 wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

When you have a bi character because is a character tract its ok... When you have a bi character only because for gameplay reason you want give a candy to all the fan its wrong... Character are not like armor or sword or class.. Character must have their distinct personality to be believable... When in a game you have character forced to be bisexual only because you want statisfy all in gameplay terms.. Well this is unrelalistic hardly believable and a forced choice that kill the coherence in a story... Ergo poor narration...o compromized narration we are not talking about a shooter or a beat em up we are talking about an rpg... and the story and the character must be the most important things..

Give me a specific example on how it affected the narration and made it poorer?

You are basically saying that it made it unbelievable/poorer cuz it did.

Even if it did, as I keep saying, there are tons and tons and tons of other things added in to 'pander' that does the same thing.

less believable like situation so this is affect also the story... it's not believable hawke have a companion how so much bi people... this is affect the story credibility

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't think it's that simple.  I personally wouldn't date someone that I found morally repugnant and I couldn't 'easily put it aside' just b/c they're hot or something...nope.  In the US, there was a time when interracial couples were so taboo that people just wouldn't enter into them or 'easily' put those differences aside.

I can buy the morality aspect, although that's obviously not something that's universal -- falling for the "bad boy/girl" is common enough and the person will often reason to themselves they're doing that to "save/change" the object of their affection. On the other hand having (and especially expressing) a racial preference is an easy way to get branded as racist, bigot and/or a narrowminded person, nothing else. Even though yes, there was a time when that racism was a social norm (and the change the society has experienced since then proves that it was pretty much just a social construct)

This doesn't mean that sex/gender is the only 'strong and unmovable' preference and the other things can easily be brushed aside.

I think the difference here would be, while there can be individuals with strong preferences in areas other than gender, having preferences this strong isn't common, which makes a situation in the game where there's no individual with such strong preferences easier to accept. Or you can look at it this way -- if the characters in the game lack such strong racial preferences etc, it can be easily seen as display of their open mindedness and whatnot. On the other hand our sexual orientation is supposed to be largely out of our own control, so having one or another doesn't speak anything about possible qualities of that person's mind.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 juin 2011 - 03:11 .

[Huntress]

The point that you are guys are missing is that only 2 characters tells the Main character that they are "OK" with whatever sex Hawk is, thats Isabella and Anders.
You can either take it or droped, as a woman I like men thats not going to change no matter what, now when playing a game if I want to romance anyone for the heck of it, I should and none of this other characters feel diminished or anything on my eyes.

What I don't like is doing the flirting part lol! why can't fenris totally tell my Fhawk he want to have a roll? arg I have to tell him! kinda sux isn't?

[Sanguinerin]

Personally, the only character whose bisexuality struck me as a bit of a quirk from his original character was Anders. We knew about Isabela's free love lifestyle already, while Merrill strikes me as someone who fell for Hawke--one of the few people to actually give her the time of day--rather than being bisexual. Fenris doesn't remember, and very well could be anything and just be uncertain of who he is and, in a way, going with the flow.

I could see them all being bisexual or pan toward what people seem to call as Hawke-sexual, with the exception of Anders. He was kind of the odd man out there, of course since he doesn't seem to resemble the Awakening Anders anyway, I suppose you could overlook him as not being the same character. Any new mage could have filled his shoes and been bisexual. His transition just wasn't done well enough in my opinion. (He's written well, don't get me wrong, but it's the lack of seeing his transition from Awakening to DAII that doesn't make him feel like the same character. If we had actually seen that descent into Vengeance, it might have been better.)

Honestly, I haven't done any of the M/M romances yet, and I'm a gay male. I'm happy for those who previously felt cheated have their options, but Anders and Fenris aren't my cup of tea (well, Awakening's Anders was). I prefer a straight romance lite with Sebastian or Aveline if she were possible, or perhaps a F/F romance with Isabela. In Origins, I preferred F/F romances with Leliana and straight romances with Alistair or Morrigan. Zevran also wasn't my cup of tea.

I also kind of wanted a deep companionship (sexless romance) with Wynne.

What's my point? ... I'm actually not really sure. Having everyone be bisexual didn't ruin the plot for me, and it also didn't give me who I wanted in terms of a M/M romance. I'm happy that they took the time to take us into consideration, of course. For someone of the majority, it may be difficult to understand just how much it means to feel included.

I'm glad that I was given a little extra for once. Did I take them up on the offer? Well, no. Here's hoping I like the options next time. But still, I very much appreciate the thought.

[jlb524]

Monica83 wrote...

less believable like situation so this is affect also the story... it's not believable hawke have a companion how so much bi people... this is affect the story credibility

Is it believable that Hawke would have two elven companions?

Is it believable that Hawke would travel with a blood mage?  An abomination?  A dude that can put his fist through your chest?

You also assume that sexuality in Thedas works just how you think it works in the real world, which isn't even true.  For starters, I doubt Thedas even defines sexuality (gay/bisexual/straight) as we do...they probably don't even define it at all.

Even with us, labeling people as "homosexual", "heterosexual", etc is a new thing that started in the 1800s.  Before that, people weren't labeled as anything nor did they identify with a social group based on who they like to sleep with.  I always assumed that Thedas works in this manner.  Thus, my Lady Hawke would never identify as a 'lesbian' as the term/concept simply wouldn't exist, nor would Fenris/Isabela/Merrill/Anders call themselves 'bisexual'.

[Agamo45]

It's one of those things that make me just want to throw this game in the garbage.Why is Bioware, or more specifically the DA team, so anti-hetero lately?

[Monica83]

Because they want masses.... quantity over quality

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

You also assume that sexuality in Thedas works just how you think it works in the real world, which isn't even true.  For starters, I doubt Thedas even defines sexuality (gay/bisexual/straight) as we do...they probably don't even define it at all.

Considering you can stop a possible homosexual relationship from forming in both games based on nothing but the genders involved, they appear to recognize the differences and that not every combination is everyone's cup of tea, at the least.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...
I can buy the morality aspect, although that's obviously not something that's universal -- falling for the "bad boy/girl" is common enough and the person will often reason to themselves they're doing that to "save/change" the object of their affection. 

Well, I mean not just being the 'bad' boy/girl, but doing some pretty nasty things like killing Conner/convincing the werewolves to kill the elves, saving the Anvil so you can enslave souls and make golems, etc...these are order of magnitudes larger than just being a bit roguish and commiting theft.  However, Leliana will still romance someone who does these things in game....someone who thinks it's okay to kill another for their own benefit.  Then there's Morrigan (even though it makes no sense that she'd romance anyone given her upbringing and attitudes towards people in general) who will go with the boring/noble/good guy that's trying to change her.

tmp7704 wrote...
On the other hand having (and especially expressing) a racial preference is an easy way to get branded as racist, bigot and/or a narrowminded person, nothing else. Even though yes, there was a time when that racism was a social norm (and the change the society has experienced since then proves that it was pretty much just a social construct)

Even today, there are people who won't date outside their own race, for various reasons.  In Thedas, we see that dwarf/human and dwarf/elf pairings are really really rare and human/elf ones are taboo. 

tmp7704 wrote...
I think the difference here would be, while there can be individuals with strong preferences in areas other than gender, having preferences this strong isn't common, which makes a situation in the game where there's no individual with such strong preferences easier to accept.

How can you assume that it's not common to have strong preferences such as these amongst people in Thedas?  Because the LIs don't show them?  I can turn that around and say that's b/c BW wanted to 'pander' to fans and allow them to romance any human with an elf/dwarf and romance Leliana/Alistair with a completely evil characer.  I can say it's just a 'gameplay feature' that 'ruins the narrative' b/c it's so unrealistic.  You can say the same thing about them as people do about the DA2 LIs with gender.  Then I can say, "well, since the 4 LIs in DA2 were bisexual (and 2 in Origins) then it must mean that bisexuality is a lot more common in Thedas than it is in our world."

tmp7704 wrote...
Or you can look at it this way -- if the characters in the game lack such strong racial preferences etc, it can be easily seen as display of their open mindedness and whatnot. On the other hand our sexual orientation is supposed to be largely out of our own control, so having one or another doesn't speak anything about possible qualities of that person's mind.

People, in general, aren't all that openminded when it comes to taboo romances (i.e., read this thread ).   You are selling the social influences on romantic preference short....these influences may even be stronger than biology.

[Huntress]

Agamo45 wrote...

It's one of those things that make me just want to throw this game in the garbage.Why is Bioware, or more specifically the DA team, so anti-hetero lately?

I don't know why you think that way but, My question is why bioware do not make male characters or all of them hit my character? and by doing so my character had the option to choose.. am not sure.
what am sure is that I rather be the one getting the flirts that giving them.

[Monica83]

jlb524 wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

less believable like situation so this is affect also the story... it's not believable hawke have a companion how so much bi people... this is affect the story credibility

Is it believable that Hawke would have two elven companions?

Is it believable that Hawke would travel with a blood mage?  An abomination?  A dude that can put his fist through your chest?

You also assume that sexuality in Thedas works just how you think it works in the real world, which isn't even true.  For starters, I doubt Thedas even defines sexuality (gay/bisexual/straight) as we do...they probably don't even define it at all.

Even with us, labeling people as "homosexual", "heterosexual", etc is a new thing that started in the 1800s.  Before that, people weren't labeled as anything nor did they identify with a social group based on who they like to sleep with.  I always assumed that Thedas works in this manner.  Thus, my Lady Hawke would never identify as a 'lesbian' as the term/concept simply wouldn't exist, nor would Fenris/Isabela/Merrill/Anders call themselves 'bisexual'.

And you fount Logic that you have a team full of bi people? i find this unbelieable and im bi.. its like forced as a choice have almost all romanceable character bi... sorry but... its just ridicolus... unless the companions don't have the personality of a dead chicken.. please... i like if bi people are present but its just silly have all romanceable companions BI.. a better solution its add more companion.. i see the fact all char are bi like a forced compromise not related with the plot but maybe is just me

Modifié par Monica83, 04 juin 2011 - 03:34 .

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering you can stop a possible homosexual relationship from forming in both games based on nothing but the genders involved, they appear to recognize the differences and that not every combination is everyone's cup of tea, at the least.

Yes, but no one 'defines' and 'labels' it.  No one feels compelled to stay in their little box, 'heterosexual', 'homosexual', etc.

Thus, I believe people would be more free to experience sexuality along a continuum (which is closer to what it acually is) instead of having to stay in their box to avoid potential social implications.

Let's say, a woman is mostly attracted to men but sometimes has found herself attracted to women.  In our world, she has to label herself as 'something' so it's likely she will call herself 'heterosexual'.  Since she belongs to this group, she's now less likely to ever act on any homosexual impulse, given the expectations of others on how a 'heterosexual' person acts.

In Thedas, she wouldn't have to label herself anything, and would be more free to act on her attraction to a woman, even if she generally prefers/dates men.