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[TheButterflyEffect]

It really feels terrible to have to soil our characters honor to procreate evil swamp witches with demon abominations. (why wasn't masturbating into a cup and then syringing it into her an option? I don't trust her to be clean, the PC's the one who could ultimately get an infection or something. ) It's really creepy and gross, and it feels very wrong in a lot of ways, especially bringing a kid into existence just to save yourself and the doing that to it. It just... messes up everything we undersand about the entire story and the characters' up to that point. It's like psych agony, esp for my male mage Warden that was with her. Poor dude. I mean, I saw her betrayal coming from a mile away but that specifically was very very unexpected... anyone else get the same feeling?

Someone on another board said that she "didn't really want to do it, only wanted to do it cause she wanted to save the warden", which is a very odd thing to claim because it sure seemed to me like she totally wanted to do it. Badly. But I don't know, have the writers said anything about this? Does anyone have some input on what her feelings about it were?

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 04 juin 2011 - 04:04 .

[yaw]

Shut up, go away.

[yaw]

Nice edit there.

[TheButterflyEffect]

yaw wrote...

Nice edit there.

I got my intended subject point across better.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 04 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[Qis]

Morrigan is a good woman despite how the game want to show her bad.

-she will not deal with any demon, but the warden might deal with demon
-she also know demon in disguise and not fall into the trick in the fade while an experienced mage like Wayne and all other circle mage easily got fooled. As well at Andraste temple, all are demon in disguise, if you refuse to answer the Guardian, she will say something about it.
-she warn about evil magic anywhere if the warden got involve in it, such as in Brecilian Forrest.
-she help the warden to the finish although she don't have to actually
-she see evil and plots behind everything and outspoken while others have bias judgment such as Chantry is good
-in Broke Circle, if killing Wayne, she is pleased because she hate the hypocrite mages but to eradicate the whole Circle means doing the job for Templar, she will criticize your judgment to eradicate the whole Circle (you have the choice to let First Enchanter live)
-she want her mother dead because she know about why she have to follow the warden that is for Dark Ritual...what kind of a mother who ask her daughter to sleep with a guy?
-actually there is a scene about Dark Ritual but being cut off last minute by Bioware, it is about her feeling, i watch it on You Tube...she said the warden is her only friend (no matter what gender) she want to save his/her life.

Modifié par Niza, 04 juin 2011 - 12:28 .

[GSSAGE7]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

It really feels terrible to have to soil our characters honor to procreate evil swamp witches with demon abominations.

Then don't agree, and have your Warden or Alistair/Loghain die against the archdemon. It's a perfectly valid option.

[Rokky94]

Is there any actual point to this topic? You're complaining at the fact that you get to sleep with an attractive woman and it saves your life. I don't really see a down side to this...

[Addai]

Morrigan is meticulously clean and won't sleep with random pirates in wh*rehouses. She was trained to play sex games with Chasind men, but expresses distaste for this. If you want to worry about diseases, Leliana "all the bored noblewomen did it" is the one you should be worried about.

If you don't want to do Morrigan's ritual, you don't have to. Bite the bullet and sacrifice your soul to Archie, or get a big damn hero to do it for you.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 juin 2011 - 06:51 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

If you don't want to do it then don't do it. The game doesn't force you.

[Shinobu]

You're supposed to have misgivings. Otherwise the game would be too easy.

David Gaider and Aimo did a comic of a "missing scene" before Morri offers the DR. You can Google it. Alistair finds Morrigan crying in the hall. She basically asks him if doing "something terrible" to protect the female Warden is okay, to which he replies that they need all the help they can get.

[yaw]

Shinobu wrote...

You're supposed to have misgivings. Otherwise the game would be too easy.

David Gaider and Aimo did a comic of a "missing scene" before Morri offers the DR. You can Google it. Alistair finds Morrigan crying in the hall. She basically asks him if doing "something terrible" to protect the female Warden is okay, to which he replies that they need all the help they can get.

I just looked that up, and now I'm so angry that something like wasn't implemented. The whole dark ritual thing would have been completely different to someone who befriended her, or especially romanced her.

Something like that is a very important scene, no idea why they decided to leave it out.

[Shinobu]

Yup. It changed my whole perspective on the DR. In my main playthrough the Warden trusted Morrigan's assessment of the DR as something with few downsides (leaving Alistair's personal feelings out of it). After reading the comic and knowing that Morrigan herself was conflicted about it raises all sorts of alarms.

My personal theory is that by "something terrible" Morrigan didn't mean preserving Urthemiel, or sleeping with her friend's lover, but incest. Morrigan could plausibly be Alistair's half sister (Maric was alone with Flemeth for several hours in The Stolen Throne and Morrigan's age in the toolset -- about 30 -- would fit with her being conceived then). It's all very Arthurian and quite Flemeth-y. Maker's sake, no one tell Alistair -- his head would explode!

[yaw]

I don't know about that...

especially seen as she could also have the baby with Loghain or the male Warden. I think she'd still be upset in one of those situations, where Alistair isn't the father and/or the Warden isn't female or Alistair isn't her lover.

I think the reason she was upset is because whatever will come about in the future, because of the ritual, will end up harming/affecting The Warden or others close to them. It was her plan all along to do the ritual, regardless of her relationship with the Warden by the time the battle comes, but it's only when she grows close to the Warden that she hesitates about doing it. She then has a dilemma, because although going through with her plan will harm her new friend, NOT going through it will mean they die.

I think a lot of people assume that Morrigan did the ritual to save her friend/lover's life... but whether or not the Warden and Morrigan hated each other (and she probably took for granted that they would anyway) she was going to propose it. It's what Flemith sent her along to do.  

So there must be adverse effects to the ritual that will affect the Warden/those close to the Warden in the future. And if so, then she does betray you because she doesn't tell you about them.

So Morrigan is upset either because

• the ritual will harm the Warden in the future
• she can't decide what would be best for her friend (the ritual or letting them die), or she feels forced to propose the ritual even if she'd rather the Warden die
• she will betray the Warden by not telling them about the effects, and feels guilty about it

or a combination of them

Modifié par yaw, 06 juin 2011 - 06:05 .

[Shinobu]

yaw wrote...

I don't know about that...

especially seen as she could also have the baby with Loghain or the male Warden. I think she'd still be upset in one of those situations, where Alistair isn't the father and/or the Warden isn't female or Alistair isn't her lover.

Could be, but since the only version of that scene we see is the female Warden version we'll probably never know.

yaw wrote...
I think the reason she was upset is because whatever will come about in the future, because of the ritual, will end up harming/affecting The Warden or others close to them. It was her plan all along to do the ritual, regardless of her relationship with the Warden by the time the battle comes, but it's only when she grows close to the Warden that she hesitates about doing it. She then has a dilemma, because although going through with her plan will harm her new friend, NOT going through it will mean they die.

Good point.

yaw wrote...
I think a lot of people assume that Morrigan did the ritual to save her friend/lover's life... but whether or not the Warden and Morrigan hated each other (and she probably took for granted that they would anyway) she was going to propose it. It's what Flemith sent her along to do.

I never understood why Morrigan still thought "Flemeth wanted me to" to be a good reason to do something. Flemeth also wanted to kill her and possess her body (if her story is true). I like to think Morri would have her own reason for wanting or not wanting to do the DR by the point of Redcliffe. Whether to save the Warden or Urthemiel, or both.

yaw wrote...
So there must be adverse effects to the ritual that will affect the Warden/those close to the Warden in the future. And if so, then she does betray you because she doesn't tell you about them.

So Morrigan is upset either because

• the ritual will harm the Warden in the future
• she can't decide what would be best for her friend (the ritual or letting them die), or she feels forced to propose the ritual even if she'd rather the Warden die
• she will betray the Warden by not telling them about the effects, and feels guilty about it

or a combination of them

[*]
I hope to find out in DA3, but am not holding my breath. Apparently David Gaider said OGB isn't canon, so it only exists if the male Warden, Alistair or Loghain did the DR. If it's not canon, then it can't be a large part of the story in the future.

[Fylimar]

I always was of the opinion, that Morrigan doesn't know for sure, what will happen and therefore ist reluctant to propose the DR.
My Warden was female, elf, happily involved with Zevran and good friend with Morrigan (90 approval or so). In the DR dialog, Morrigan told her, that she isn't sure herself, if she wanted the Ritual, but she wants to save the Wardens life. Alistair was not in the group any more, but Loghain was and from the dialogues between him and Morrigan, I was of the impression, that even though, he can't stand her much, she seemed to like him and thus didn't want him to die either. I liked the DR dialogue very much in fact and in character had at least to talk to Loghain about it.
Maybe Morrigan hopes to get the same power than Flemeth - to live for eternity in the bodies of her daugthers and the DR was the way to that, but I doubt it. She seemed far too shocked about that and as someone mentioned in this thread - she doesn't seem to be too fond of evil magic and demons. In some of the dialogues with her, I got the feeling, that she wants to proof, that mages outside the Circle can take care of themselves, avoiding 'evil' magic and becoming an abormination. But that's just my personal opinion. I may get that wrong.
BTW: I have Witch Hunt but didn't play it yet. Maybe, I will think differently about Morrigan and her intentions after that, who knows.

But I don' find it cheap or the evil way to accept the ritual. There were a lot of harder decisions to make in the game (the dwarven king, the Dalish and the Weres...) and since my character befriended Loghain and forgave him, she didn't really want him to die. And she herself didn't want to die either, so it was a logical choice - especially since she and Morrigan were good friends.

[Shinobu]

Fylimar, I liked the Loghain dialogue surrounding the DR, too. Though I am a huge Alistair fan, he was not at his best in Redcliffe -- his approach to the DR decision was pretty immature compared to Loghain's (I guess Ali's comparatively a kid, so some excuse, there).

I like how this turned into a discussion thread instead of a rant. DA:O fans FTW!

[Jedimaster88]

Just out of curiosity, what does Loghain say about the DR thing? I dont spare his life in my playthroughs because I just...feel he doesnt deserve to be there after everything he did.

I have seen Alistairs reaction´s from youtube. He seemed pretty freaked out, and if something like that would be suggested to me, I guess I would too freak out big time.

[Shinobu]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Just out of curiosity, what does Loghain say about the DR thing? I dont spare his life in my playthroughs because I just...feel he doesnt deserve to be there after everything he did.

I have seen Alistairs reaction´s from youtube. He seemed pretty freaked out, and if something like that would be suggested to me, I guess I would too freak out big time.

Sorry, I can't remember word-for-word, but Logy was more dispassionate. He basically said things like: "Do you trust this witch? What would be the repercussions for the Realm? Don't feel the need to do this to spare me because I'm prepared to die. I'll trust your judgment, but I'd prefer not to do this." It felt more like a strategy session between equals, compared to Alistair's reaction, which was basically: "Eww, Morrigan!" I think Alistair had plenty of reasons to want or not want to do the DR -- I wish he had been written to be more cogent. (On the other hand, Alistair's emotional reactions are part of what is attractive about his character, so it's a bit unfair of me to ding him for it just because it's super unhelpful in that situation.)

Loghain has a lot of really interesting dialogue that is worth hearing. He gives tidbits on his relationship with Maric, Maric's attitude toward Alistair, insights into Anora's character, his views on the burden of leadership, all of which made my Warden (grudgingly) respect him and almost see him as a mentor by the end of the game. He also has a couple of really funny coversations with Zevran (where Zev reports his failure to kill the Warden) and Morrigan (where Morri finds out Loghain prefers necrophilia to sleeping with her). In RtO he apparently also brings Wynne down a notch, but I haven't played that. My canon Warden chops off his head at the LM, but I'm glad I tried sparing him once. I think Addai put some of his convos on Youtube if you want to check them out.

[Fylimar]

Shinobu: That's why I always choose Loghain over Alistair now. He has very good dialogues and I was shocked, when Alistair demanded his death even after he was defeated. That scene made my warden loathe Ali - though as a player I liked, how the pretty boy for once turned into the hateful vengeance boy. It was a nice character twist. I like although Loghains comments on my wardens relationship with the man, he has hired to kill me :-)
And yes, it is nice, that there is a very interesting discussion going on here.

I must admitt, that Morrigan was - together with Alistair - the character, I liked least. But since I wanted to play with all companions and she is spoken by 'Aeryn Sun' Claudia Black, I took her instead of Wynne with me and I was really surprised. I actually liked her at the end of the game and so it was not a hard decision for my warden to trust her and go on with the ritual.

[Jedimaster88]

I have seen Loghains dialogues with the warden from youtube. I didnt find them that interesting. Almost everything he says is what I already know. Calling his crimes a tactical error is a mild way to put them considering all the damage and death he caused with his maddog Howe and in his blind stupid belief that he alone is the only one that can save Ferelden and people should just do as he says. I find him to be two faced. He says he didnt want it to happen to Cailan and when I watched RTO from youtube, he didnt seem to regret it anymore. In fact he said that he would do it again exactly the same way even if he knew everythin that happens next. What an idiot I say. Wanted to punch him in the face and beat his ass again.

I dont blame Alistair for wanting him dead. I know its just a game, but this is one those games that actually make me feel angry or sad about something that happens. When Anora and Riordan suggest the joining, I actually felt a bit disgusted. Why should I choose a man, who already had his chance to make things right but didnt, over a man who always had my back no matter what and was like a brother to my male human noble warden. Okay now Im getting too much into this and forgetting the original purpose of this discussion.

The dark ritual itself. Hard to say. Many think that its part of some evil plan of morrigans to get more power or who knows what. I dont know, that seems a bit too obvious and we know in the world of dragon age, things arent that simple. She sometimes feels a bit nasty, but I remember better all the discussions when she shows her innocent side. Makes me want to hold her and allow her to let all her feelings come out. My HN male always ends up in love with morrigan and you can really see her having feelings for the warden. She knows she shouldnt but at the same time se wants it, hungers it. This is one of the reasons I end up doing the ritual with her. My warden loves her and wants to trust her after everything they´ve been through. He knows something may happen with the child, but he is willing to take responsibility about what comes. In witch hunt he gets the chance to face what comes together with morrigan and takes it.

Now we just have to wait and see what the unknown future brings for them and Thedas.

By the way there is one good patch that restores some kissing scenes and corrects dialogues with morrigan, and fixes some other things also. Its called morrigan restoration patch or something. You can find it here from forums, project section. Its the only Mod I have installed and I recommend it. It works just fine, at least with me it does.

[Shinobu]

I like Morrigan and Alistair and like keeping them both in the party even better. Yes, Alistair shows a disturbing side at the LM and doesn't deal well with some situations (DR, being made king, sparing Loghain), but I still love the character. I don't think Morri has evil intent and enjoy having her as a friend. Logy was interesting and surprisingly likeable with a good sense of irony, but I'm still more likely to execute him.