316 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

I just thought, I wonder if Shepard is going to discover that the Council has been indoctrinated since ME2. That may explain their baffling stupidity.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Golden Owl wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

If favortism is the argument here....then can I claim that renegades were favored in ME2? I certainly didn't want to work for Cerberus.

No, Cerberus is not the result, reward, or validation of a Renegade choice.

Though the fact still remains that paragons were still rail roaded into working for an organization many of them deeply dislike in ME2....whereas a large number of renegades were more than happy with that outcome and are now crying foul over ME3's return to fighting them status.

Renegades were equally railroaded and killed Cerberus ops in ME1 like the Paragons did.  And I don't know a lot of Renegades that trust Cerberus, but did feel they should continue working with them against the Reapers (because they were the only ones working).  And even then, Bioware didn't know what motivation would drive a player to keep the Base after ME2 was released.  That's all after-the-fact.  So it's not the same thing... it's just more Paragon favoritism (ie, a validation of a Paragon choice and literally "nothing" for Renegades).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 08 juin 2011 - 01:11 .

[Golden Owl]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

If favortism is the argument here....then can I claim that renegades were favored in ME2? I certainly didn't want to work for Cerberus.

No, Cerberus is not the result, reward, or validation of a Renegade choice.

Though the fact still remains that paragons were still rail roaded into working for an organization many of them deeply dislike in ME2....whereas a large number of renegades were more than happy with that outcome and are now crying foul over ME3's return to fighting them status.

Renegades were equally railroaded and killed Cerberus ops in ME1 like the Paragons did.  And I don't know a lot of Renegades that trust Cerberus, but did feel they should continue working with them against the Reapers (because they were the only ones working).  And even then, Bioware didn't know what motivation would drive a player to keep the Base after ME2 was released.  That's all after-the-fact.  So it's not the same thing... it's just more Paragon favoritism (ie, a validation of a Paragon choice and literally "nothing" for Renegades).

Your still dismissing the fact that none of us know what is going to happen in ME3, what are your arguments based upon then? And I have seen plenty of renegades on this forum in love with working with Cerberus and do not want that fact to change.

[jbblue05]

Captain Anderson is a self-righteous Paragon and his actions  in Retribution were stupid and reckless attacking an oragnization helping Shepard stop the Reapers and cast a dark shadow over the Alliance.
Anderson's betrayal of the Alliance goes unpunished.

His short-sighted and naive actions make him look like a complete genius now in ME3.
A Renegade orgaanization in Cerverus helps the Reapers.now and Paragon Anderson actions has convienently helped Shepard weaken an enemy and not to mention he helps Shepard escape the reaper Invasion

Their is only one reasoon to play as a Renegade and its to not be a paragon
Paragon is vastly superior just pick the top option and you can defeat the Reapers with one-arm tied behind you back

[Seboist]

thurmanator692 wrote...

You have no idea what t
Base keepers get. Maybe you get nice new collector/reaper based tech?

You'll have to forgive us for being extremely skeptical of the outcomes of our renegade choices. We saw what happened with the (lack of) human led council in ME2 and how every squadmate scolded Shepard for keeping the Collector base including the ones who were for it.

[aeetos21]

For me it's simple, people don't change. We like to think they do but they don't. The only "changes" they might have made will only last until they die. A reformed jewel thief will never stop casing jewelry shops every time he walks in one. He'll stop himself from doing anything crazy but the desire is still there. Only when he's dead and gone does he quit for good.

I gave TIM one unbiased chance in ME2 to prove to me that he's on the level and he failed miserably. That's why when everyone was yelling "Keep the base!" and "We are humanity, go Cerberus!" after the VGA reveal, I was shaking my head. Yes TIM helped win the battle in ME2 but that doesn't make him a hero or the leader humanity should be looking towards. Would the base have helped? Definitely and if there was an alternative I probably would've let the Alliance have it but since it was Cerberus and TIM I knew I had to destroy the technology. Using the Reaper's own weapons against them is smart, that's where the Thanix Cannon (salvaged and modified by the Turians) came from and in ME2 that did a fantastic job of tearing the Collector ship apart. It's who get's the technology that's the problem.

Big picture, always gotta be thinking big picture.

Edit: Of course who knows. We may say destroying the base now is the better choice given the info we learned at E3 but later on after Cerberus is defeated in ME3 we can maybe salvage the data they have from the Collector Base and still use that against the Reapers.

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 juin 2011 - 01:51 .

[jbblue05]

aeetos21 wrote...

For me it's simple, people don't change. We like to think they do but they don't. The only "changes" they might have made will only last until they die. A reformed jewel thief will never stop casing jewelry shops every time he walks in one. He'll stop himself from doing anything crazy but the desire is still there. Only when he's dead and gone does he quit for good.

I gave TIM one unbiased chance in ME2 to prove to me that he's on the level and he failed miserably. That's why when everyone was yelling "Keep the base!" and "We are humanity, go Cerberus!" after the VGA reveal, I was shaking my head. Yes TIM helped win the battle in ME2 but that doesn't make him a hero or the leader humanity should be looking towards. Would the base have helped? Definitely and if there was an alternative I probably would've let the Alliance have it but since it was Cerberus and TIM I knew I had to destroy the technology. Using the Reaper's own weapons against them is smart, that's where the Thanix Cannon (salvaged and modified by the Turians) came from and in ME2 that did a fantastic job of tearing the Collector ship apart. It's who get's the technology that's the problem.

Big picture, always gotta be thinking big picture.

Edit: Of course who knows. We may say destroying the base now is the better choice given the info we learned at E3 but later on after Cerberus is defeated in ME3 we can maybe salvage the data they have from the Collector Base and still use that against the Reapers.

So the smart thing to do is to undermine the only organization trying to stop the Reapers
Destroying the base is extremely short-sighted with the Reaper invasion on the horizon.
The big picture is to stop the Reapers not satisfy your moral conscious.

The CB was obviously unneeded against the Reapers because it was optional.  When something is optional it means its irrelevant to the plot unless there's a retcon..

[jbblue05]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

His short-sighted and naive actions make him look like a complete genius now in ME3.

No, he still looks like a moron and a traitor to anyone with a brain.

Some people don't use their brain and are driven by emotion.

Cerberus would .be even more potent without Anderson's action in Retribution

[Seboist]

jbblue05 wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

For me it's simple, people don't change. We like to think they do but they don't. The only "changes" they might have made will only last until they die. A reformed jewel thief will never stop casing jewelry shops every time he walks in one. He'll stop himself from doing anything crazy but the desire is still there. Only when he's dead and gone does he quit for good.

I gave TIM one unbiased chance in ME2 to prove to me that he's on the level and he failed miserably. That's why when everyone was yelling "Keep the base!" and "We are humanity, go Cerberus!" after the VGA reveal, I was shaking my head. Yes TIM helped win the battle in ME2 but that doesn't make him a hero or the leader humanity should be looking towards. Would the base have helped? Definitely and if there was an alternative I probably would've let the Alliance have it but since it was Cerberus and TIM I knew I had to destroy the technology. Using the Reaper's own weapons against them is smart, that's where the Thanix Cannon (salvaged and modified by the Turians) came from and in ME2 that did a fantastic job of tearing the Collector ship apart. It's who get's the technology that's the problem.

Big picture, always gotta be thinking big picture.

Edit: Of course who knows. We may say destroying the base now is the better choice given the info we learned at E3 but later on after Cerberus is defeated in ME3 we can maybe salvage the data they have from the Collector Base and still use that against the Reapers.

So the smart thing to do is to undermine the only organization trying to stop the Reapers
Destroying the base is extremely short-sighted with the Reaper invasion on the horizon.
The big picture is to stop the Reapers not satisfy your moral conscious.

The CB was obviously unneeded against the Reapers because it was optional.  When something is optional it means its irrelevant to the plot unless there's a retcon..

Yes, like witth the keep/destroy genophage data decision in Mordin's loyalty mission becoming irrelevant. It turns out we're forced to cure the Krogans no matter what in ME3 with the whole Krogan "princess" thing.

[jbblue05]

Seboist wrote...

[Yes, like witth the keep/destroy genophage data decision in Mordin's loyalty mission becoming irrelevant. It turns out we're forced to cure the Krogans no matter what in ME3 with the whole Krogan "princess" thing.

I would rather kill Mordin and the Princess than "save" the Krogan race

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Golden Owl wrote...

Your still dismissing the fact that none of us know what is going to happen in ME3, what are your arguments based upon then? And I have seen plenty of renegades on this forum in love with working with Cerberus and do not want that fact to change.

Even going into Mass Effect 3 there's been literally nothing validating a benefit to the Renegade choices thusfar.  We've been hearing things about Mass Effect 3 for a while now and so far... the trend still seems to be going that the Paragons will be favored... which destroys the notion of making tough choices for the greater good.

Just do the short-term moral "right" of the time (ie, the blue button) and everything will work out the best that it possibly can (with regards to life lost, content given, and positive feedback).

Even excluding ME3, this is exactly how it's been going for the last 2 games.  I'd love to hear what a member of the Bioware staff has to say about this... but it's a tough notion to dispute.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 08 juin 2011 - 02:28 .

[Golden Owl]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Your still dismissing the fact that none of us know what is going to happen in ME3, what are your arguments based upon then? And I have seen plenty of renegades on this forum in love with working with Cerberus and do not want that fact to change.

Even going into Mass Effect 3 there's been literally nothing validating a benefit to the Renegade choices thusfar.  We've been hearing things about Mass Effect 3 for a while now and so far... the trend still seems to be going that the Paragons will be favored... which destroys the notion of making tough choices for the greater good.

Just do the short-term moral "right" of the time (ie, the blue button) and everything will work out the best that it possibly can.

Even excluding ME3, this is exactly how it's been going for the last 2 games.  I'd love to hear what a member of the Bioware staff has to say about this... but it's a tough notion to dispute.

Hasn't Priestly made some comments about this? My apologies, I don't know where, but have noted people discussing it.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I don't recall that but I'd love to hear about it, what did Priestly say?

[Golden Owl]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I don't recall that but I'd love to hear about it, what did Priestly say?

My sincere apologies Mr Gogeta, I wasn't paying a great deal of attention....There's a good chance I only noted it because a poster I respect was involved, I have a feeling it might be Seboist, ask him...He like you are good debators, no getting personal...speaking of which, thank you Mr Gogeta, I respect your opinions and have been enjoying this debate/disecting of the game with you.

[aeetos21]

jbblue05 wrote...
So the smart thing to do is to undermine the only organization trying to stop the Reapers
Destroying the base is extremely short-sighted with the Reaper invasion on the horizon.
The big picture is to stop the Reapers not satisfy your moral conscious.

The CB was obviously unneeded against the Reapers because it was optional.  When something is optional it means its irrelevant to the plot unless there's a retcon..

We're all welcome to our opinions and speculations but I'm putting my faith in BW on this one. I'm 100% sure that they wouldn't place such a huge emphasis on the destroying the Council or whether or not to keep the CB without there being large benefits and potentially larger consequences in the end game.

Here are my current thoughts:

---Long term going REN in both decisions will probably make it easier for human dominance
---It may also give you an edge with technology in some way against the reapers
---On the other hand it will probably limit the amount of support you'll get from the other civilizations
---If you keep going down this REN path then your strategy against the Reapers will probably work better versus if you suddenly doing a u-turn and try to be more PAR
---Edit, you may also be able to regain Cerberus as an ally and use them against the reaper fight as well (big potential benefit there)

---Long term going PAR in both decisions will probably result in more alien hugging galaxy when all is said and done
---It may also give you an edge on the amount of allies that will come and help yah out
---With the loss of the CB and humanity weakened when it saved the council it may mean higher human casualties on earth before Shepard returns with reinforcements
---Like REN if you keep going PAR on this path I'm pretty sure you'll be just fine, but if you do a u-turn then that'll probably make life more difficult

This also fits well with the whole Genesis thing and allowing new players to choose their paths in the previous two games. Otherwise sticking them with a default would really pidgeon hole them.

My playthrough?
I'm a paragade, meaning I killed the Council and gave humanity and edge so maybe that will mean earth has better defenses against the invading reaper fleet. Short term it also made more strategic sense when bringing down Sovereign. However I also destroyed the CB so maybe that means less technology for me but maybe it redeemed myself in the eyes of other civilizations. Or maybe he took out a potential power base for the Reapers and TIM that would've otherwise made the fight that much more difficult.

But going back to short-term POV I didn't trust TIM and I knew I wouldn't be able to play ball with both him and the other CIVs when the reapers finally did invade so I made a decision that would cut all ties with him and Cerberus.

***Even if AT THE TIME that was tne only organization doing something about the reapers. When an armada of reapers is breathing down the galaxy's neck I'm pretty sure Cerberus won't be the only people concerned.

Other than those two I pretty much went with keeping as many people alive as possible and helping whomever I could so that when its us against the reapers there would hopefully be more "us" to fight.

I know I like shot myself in the foot a dozen times over and I know hindsight is always 20/20 but whatever. At the time I didn't trust TIM and I wasn't about to augment his power further. How that plays out I'm sure BW will twist and turn it every which way that most of are speculations right now will be dead wrong.

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 juin 2011 - 02:53 .

[jbblue05]

It makes no sense that you get no aid from aliens because you save CB.

How would they find out.?  I doubt TIM will tell everyone about his secret data cache

Plus the public believes Shepard is working for Cerberus.

How does destroying the base equal aliens support you?

[Splinter Cell 108]

jbblue05 wrote...

It makes no sense that you get no aid from aliens because you save CB.

How would they find out.?  I doubt TIM will tell everyone about his secret data cache

Plus the public believes Shepard is working for Cerberus.

How does destroying the base equal aliens support you?

Admiral Hackett knew you left Cerberus in ME2 if you completed Arrival after the Suicide Mission. Why wouldn't he know about the base? The aliens also have their intelligence agencies, they could have found out too. 

[jbblue05]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

It makes no sense that you get no aid from aliens because you save CB.

How would they find out.?  I doubt TIM will tell everyone about his secret data cache

Plus the public believes Shepard is working for Cerberus.

How does destroying the base equal aliens support you?

Admiral Hackett knew you left Cerberus in ME2 if you completed Arrival after the Suicide Mission. Why wouldn't he know about the base? The aliens also have their intelligence agencies, they could have found out too. 

Cerberus and the Alliance are intertwined.
I bet the Alliance wanted to get their hands on that base as much as TIM